Author Topic: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom  (Read 74888 times)

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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #150 on: June 22, 2011, 09:45:13 PM »
Eientei's weird. Eirin says it technically has no written history, thanks to Kaguya's eternal thing.

This must drive Keine nuts.  :V
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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #151 on: June 22, 2011, 10:06:20 PM »
Eientei's weird. Eirin says it technically has no written history, thanks to Kaguya's eternal thing.
This is very trippy to understand and put to use. If you define time as the direction that entropy moves, then Kaguya can somehow freeze entropy. This means nothing changed inside Eientei (read CiLR for a description of these effects: "food doesn't spoil, etc") during centuries. This would "realistically" mean she, Eirin and anybody else inside would likewise be frozen in time, but that was not the case, so this may be one of the few situations from the canon where the better course is to not think too hard about it.

And speaking of "canon you wish got used more", why the hell is the English fanon selectively translating Koumakan to "Scarlet Devil Mansion", while "House of Eternity" (a kickass name) and "Tower of White Jade" remain in the original japanese?

Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #152 on: June 22, 2011, 10:11:23 PM »
And speaking of "canon you wish got used more", why the hell is the English fanon selectively translating Koumakan to "Scarlet Devil Mansion", while "House of Eternity" (a kickass name) and "Tower of White Jade" remain in the original japanese?

Because the Scarlet Devil Mansion belongs to a group of mainly Western characters while the other two are more Japanese.
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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #153 on: June 22, 2011, 10:11:31 PM »
And speaking of "canon you wish got used more", why the hell is the English fanon selectively translating Koumakan to "Scarlet Devil Mansion", while "House of Eternity" (a kickass name) and "Tower of White Jade" remain in the original japanese?

Maybe because the SDM is more western than those other locations?  :derp:



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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #154 on: June 22, 2011, 11:24:20 PM »
To sum it up, don't try to rationalize Gensokyo, the Hakurei Clan and Yukari did it.

Annoying Rinnosuke needs moar, though I'm (SURPRISINGLY) fond of his fanon depictions of him being a pervert/troll/pervertroll. PMISS has a throwaway line about youkai and humans avoiding him due to his "personality".
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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #155 on: June 23, 2011, 12:44:14 AM »
I'm more a fan of "Rinnosuke, the exasperated shopkeeper". Seeing all who he has to put up with, it's hardly surprising.

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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #156 on: June 23, 2011, 12:50:27 AM »
I'm more a fan of "Rinnosuke, the exasperated shopkeeper". Seeing all who he has to put up with, it's hardly surprising.

I like this interpretation, too. I was never very fond of the MANosuke thing. It's not a good interpretation of Kourin as that is not his personality at all. It's good for the occasional joke, but that's it.
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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #157 on: June 23, 2011, 01:49:45 AM »
I'm more a fan of "Rinnosuke, the exasperated shopkeeper". Seeing all who he has to put up with, it's hardly surprising.
Thing is, he's canonically not much of a shopkeeper, anyway. Canon Rinnosuke strikes me more like of these excentric and anti-social hoarders that live into houses filled with junk they gather. Yeah, his house happens to be nominally a store and he ocasionally sells part of his hoard, but his stories tell time and time again how he doesn't like to part with useful merchandise. And again, he's not a people's person. Marisa (probably due to their shared story) merrily ignores this and imposes on him on a daily basis. Reimu (probably following Marisa's example) does the same.

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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #158 on: June 23, 2011, 03:12:07 AM »
Thing is, he's canonically not much of a shopkeeper, anyway. Canon Rinnosuke strikes me more like of these excentric and anti-social hoarders that live into houses filled with junk they gather. Yeah, his house happens to be nominally a store and he ocasionally sells part of his hoard, but his stories tell time and time again how he doesn't like to part with useful merchandise. And again, he's not a people's person. Marisa (probably due to their shared story) merrily ignores this and imposes on him on a daily basis. Reimu (probably following Marisa's example) does the same.

Yes, hence his exasperation. Rinnosuke's nature is much like that of a human from the outside world, despite being half-youkai. He doesn't solve incidents with magic and danmaku; he runs a shop. This makes him relatable to the reader. He's more like one of us than others in Gensokyo. That his reaction to daily visits is exasperation, to me, is great comedy. He's living the dream, but to him, it's a hassle.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 03:17:25 AM by Tengukami »

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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #159 on: June 23, 2011, 03:58:23 AM »
Like I said earlier, the fandom should make use of his shotgun umbrella and also give his pet cat spotlight.

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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #160 on: June 23, 2011, 05:58:14 AM »
They do.

Mph, am I the only one who takes Inaba only partially canonically? I mean, gag manga and all.

Back on track: If anything, he's that weirdo running the antiques shop out at the edges of town.
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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #161 on: June 23, 2011, 06:56:57 AM »
Events in Inaba are referenced in Hisoutenko win quotes here and there.  However, it's true that ZUN didn't actually write the characters, so at best you can think of the characters as "not exactly the way ZUN might have portrayed them, because ZUN wasn't the one actually writing them."

ZUN was, however, responsible for suggesting general story arcs and which characters should appear next (I believe he stated this in that same interview where he stated he generally tried not to intervene much to give the authors more freedom for comedy)

Thus, the way I see it, the general events of Inaba can be considered canon, although the personalities depicted wherein are more... loose form for the sake of comedy and may or may not be how ZUN himself would have depicted them.



I imagine that line about youkai and humans avoiding Rinnosuke is because he's kinda socially awkward.  For one thing, he runs a shop yet is hesitant to actually sell his merchandise.  To youkai, he's probably too sane and level-headed (IE, too human).  To humans, he's probably too loopy and wierd (IE, too youkai-ish).  Curiousities of Lotus Asia in general shows this pretty well, I think.  Really, the guy's pretty darn strange from a human perspective, yet not as strange as the dennizons of Gensokyo that we're used to (youkai and the wierdos that regularly deal with them like Marisa and Reimu)

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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #162 on: June 23, 2011, 07:15:02 AM »
Yeah, he's pretty out there as far as both human and youkai are concerned.

But on a semi-related note, among an old group of friends who were also touhou fans, I was referred to as "The Rinnosuke", due to being an avid collector of various bits and bobs, and just generally being a lot like him.

But back on topic, I'd say the canon Rinnosuke is much more tolerable than the fanon one.
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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #163 on: June 23, 2011, 07:19:28 AM »
Fanon Rinnosuke is amusing to watch, however.

I wish the Watatsuki sisters actually showed up more often. I'm fully aware fandom hates them for "being mary sues", barring Yukari
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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #164 on: June 23, 2011, 07:29:14 AM »
Well, when you consider that one of 'em(can't tell the two apart really, no matter how hard I try.) split the master spark in two with just a sword, yeah.
And then there's the fact that they basically beat down everyone the fans love, that's bound to garner some hate.
And then there's the non-canon fact that they're hell to fight in Touhoumon/Puppet Play. I should know this, I've gone against them with type advantage, and several levels higher than them, and still got my ass handed to me.

But that last bit's for a different thread, no?
But it fits in with what I'm saying nonetheless.
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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #165 on: June 23, 2011, 07:51:24 AM »
The Watatsuki sisters are kinda.... jerks, too.  All those speeches about Lunarians being superior and everything kinda makes you just wanna wring their necks, IMHO.  (that said, they can be nice people, like how they were really forgiving to Reissen 2 and purposefully don't pursue Eirin.  They're just really stuck up when it comes to Earthlings, and this was almost positively due to the culture they were raised in)

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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #166 on: June 23, 2011, 09:27:42 AM »
I wish the Watatsuki sisters actually showed up more often. I'm fully aware fandom hates them for "being mary sues", barring Yukari
Spoiler:
having the last laugh in the end.
I like how fans brand the Watatsuki's as Mary sues but, then completely ignore the fact that, oh...let's say Yukari, is someone who can break rules of reality when she feels like and can pretty much do anything she wants or will ever want. I won't even get started on Reimu, because it will be too easy.





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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #167 on: June 23, 2011, 09:31:43 AM »
I like how fans brand the Watatsuki's as Mary sues but, then completely ignore the fact that, oh...let's say Yukari, is someone who can break rules of reality when she feels like and can pretty much do anything she wants or will ever want. I won't even get started on Reimu, because it will be too easy.
I love how Yukari lost the war against an army of what could be insects and just one of the sisters.

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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #168 on: June 23, 2011, 09:41:36 AM »
I love how Yukari lost the war against an army of what could be insects and just one of the sisters.
If you're referring to the 1st Lunar War (which I'm pretty sure you are), didn't Yukari just let the youkai go up there and get their asses kicked while she sat back at Gensokyo just to say 'And what have we learned~' when they got back?
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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #169 on: June 23, 2011, 09:46:26 AM »
Quote
Over a thousand years ago, Yukari organized an army of youkai and led them in an invasion of the Moon. The youkai were subsequently routed by the Lunarians, who possessed superior technology and magic, and forced to retreat to Earth. Since that time, no youkai have attempted to expand their territory beyond Gensokyo. While some speculate that Yukari organized the invasion out of selfish hunger for territory and power, others believe she did it to teach the youkai a lesson about starting wars of conquest; namely, that it was a bad idea.

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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #170 on: June 23, 2011, 09:48:06 AM »
I like how fans brand the Watatsuki's as Mary sues but, then completely ignore the fact that, oh...let's say Yukari, is someone who can break rules of reality when she feels like and can pretty much do anything she wants or will ever want. I won't even get started on Reimu, because it will be too easy.
You do realize that beyond conspiracy theories of her not using her full powers despite having reasons to do so, her powers are explicitly shown to have bounds in SSiB and probably other places as well, and she herself explicitly says in that one short story written by ZUN that Shikieiki could whupp her ass with ease.

Yukari being treated as the most powerful being in any fictional work ever gets on my nerves, really.
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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #171 on: June 23, 2011, 10:09:28 AM »
And stuff.
I knew there was 'to teach them a lesson' in there somewhere but, then memory decayed with age. This is what I get for relying on a memory that kills itself every so often and doesn't recollect properly.

You do realize that beyond conspiracy theories of her not using her full powers despite having reasons to do so, her powers are explicitly shown to have bounds in SSiB and probably other places as well, and she herself explicitly says in that one short story written by ZUN that Shikieiki could whupp her ass with ease.

Yukari being treated as the most powerful being in any fictional work ever gets on my nerves, really.
The above I remember.

It's the fact that fans like to place her as the most powerful thing ever is what had me making the connection to the "lol Watatsukis are mary sues". It was basically my way of bringing up a 'pot calling the kettle black' situation. Sure the Watatsukis are called 'mary sues' but look where Yukari's often placed.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 10:11:08 AM by Fattybus »
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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #172 on: June 23, 2011, 10:20:24 AM »
Yukari's also never depicted wiping the floor with the main playable protagonists of the series.  Sure, her implied powerlevel is over 9000 or whatever, but when was the last time she was shown actually defeating Reimu?  Or Marisa?  Perfect Memento and her official profiles make it clear that even when she loses, she acts like she's won (which ticks everyone off) implying that Yukari's never really trying when she loses, but Mary Sues generally... well, ACTUALLY win (as opposed to always lose, even if on purpose).

That and if we're compariing the mary sueness of Yukari vs the sisters... well, Silent Sinner had Yukari surrendering to Yorihime because she (according to Yukari, at least) had no chance against Yorihime in a fight.  If Yukari's a Mary Sue, what does that make the character that Yukari surrenders to because she (so she says) doesn't stand a chance against as? The... um... Mary Sue Deluxe?

Well, that's just from a canon perspective.  From a fandom perspective, a Mary Sue is typically a self-insertious character that all the other characters love and worship.  So IMHO the fandom doesn't really Mary-Sue-ize Yukari that much because typically in fandom stories, every character hates Yukari.  (yea, the fandom would have to be pretty bad to screw that one up, since Yukari being disliked by everyone is one of the most glaringly obvious and emphasized things in Touhou canon works about her)

(personal note:  I'm not particularly bitter about that, myself, despite being a Yukari fan.  Yorihime being invincible-ish is a necessary plot device for several things in the history of Gensokyo and Yukari, anyways, like those "hopeless boss fights" in RPGs.  If the Lunarians weren't nigh invincible, Yukari wouldn't have been able to take advantage of that fact for some of her schemes.  But taking SSiB by itself tho and... yea, Yorihime does look a bit Mary Sue-ish in her power)




On a side note, the "backstory" section of Yukari's section in the wiki isn't a word for word statement taken from any official source, by the way.  The main actual canon statement regarding the war is from Perfect Memento.

Quote
Although she went in with an army of impudent youkai, they were crushed by the Moon's advanced weaponry.

It is believed because of that incident, youkai usually do not choose to attack outside their territory.

Sadly, Perfect Memento (nor any other source) doesn't say WHY Yukari invaded the moon.  We do know that Yukari herself personally went, and that, for the most part, it seems the war resulted in the youkai choosing to not attack outside their territory.

The main question is if that was the intended effect.  Fandom generally assumes that Yukari did this on purpose (IE, invaded the moon to get the youkai to stop attacking outside their territory), but it's never explicitly stated anywhere in the canon this was the case (tho it certainly is a valid speculation, and one that I personally believe is the case, myself).  Also, in Cage in Lunatic Runagate, Yukari (apparently) reveals to Ran that she went to the moon by herself long ago (and is implied to be the first time she went to the moon.  IE, before her invasion with the youkai army) and realized no invasion to the moon could ever win.  Despite this, history shows she invaded the moon with an army anyways anyways.  Logic would thus state that she never intended on winning in that first invasion because she knew she couldn't win.

...of course, that still doesn't answer the question of if she could have won if she tried.  It just tells us that she knew (or at least believed she knew) she couldn't win yet invaded the moon anyways.  Well, the lunarians have plenty of ways to nullify her abilities (such as the rope Yorihime ties her up with that's so thick and some other technobabble that you can't pass through via boundaries)

Yukari does seem pretty mad about the whole thing in SSiB (tho it's hard to tell how mad when she was pretending to be angry half the time.  Angry Yukari = adorable, btw) and wants "revenge", however, it does seem that the whole 'revenge" she's shooting for is more "for the principal of the thing", so it doesn't necessarily contradict the idea that she lost on purpose (or rather, invaded knowing that she couldn't win on purpose).  The fact that her entire revenge was basically just one fat trollicious prank seems to support that idea, IMHO.

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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #173 on: June 23, 2011, 10:26:32 AM »
You do realize that beyond conspiracy theories of her not using her full powers despite having reasons to do so, her powers are explicitly shown to have bounds in SSiB and probably other places as well, and she herself explicitly says in that one short story written by ZUN that Shikieiki could whupp her ass with ease.

Yukari being treated as the most powerful being in any fictional work ever gets on my nerves, really.
I have the same problem with this as well.  People like to talk as if she's the no. 1 most power fictional character ever created, be it TV shows, anime, manga, movies, video games, or novels.  I do agree that she is powerful, but she can't be that powerful, can she?  I'm sure that most Marvel and DC Comics characters can easily go to town with her.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 10:30:34 AM by game2011 »

Kips McKipzerson

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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #174 on: June 23, 2011, 10:28:53 AM »
If anything, Marvel and DC Comics characters are the ones that are overpowered and can easily go to town with her.
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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #175 on: June 23, 2011, 10:41:47 AM »
And then...MORE stuff.
Okay so, tl;dr, I fucked up in my assumptions about Yukari being a mary sue.

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Off topic but, what WAS his power again? It's something I've wondered ever since they started showing commercials of that Captain America movie.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 10:43:42 AM by Fattybus »
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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #176 on: June 23, 2011, 10:54:10 AM »
iirc he was like a sick dude or something who keeps his power (or just got it, my memory of this is fuzzy) via a syringe injection as a test subject.

game2011

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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #177 on: June 23, 2011, 10:59:24 AM »
Imagine Batman, but without all those fancy gadgets.  Plus, he got his strength from a serum injection while Batman got them from intense physical training.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 12:16:25 PM by game2011 »

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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #178 on: June 23, 2011, 11:15:22 AM »
This must drive Keine nuts.  :V

Speaking of the were-hakutaku, I want to see more of the intelligent and strong Keine. Not the Mokou-obsessed caving freak that the fandom sometimes turn her into. And what is with everyone being convinced that she's a bovine? Apart from the horns, she looks nothing like a cow. It's basically Fan Dumb and it drives me nuts.

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Re: Canon portrayals that you wish got used more in fandom
« Reply #179 on: June 23, 2011, 11:26:17 AM »
Speaking of the were-hakutaku, I want to see more of the intelligent and strong Keine. Not the Mokou-obsessed caving freak that the fandom sometimes turn her into. And what is with everyone being convinced that she's a bovine? Apart from the horns, she looks nothing like a cow. It's basically Fan Dumb and it drives me nuts.
Full agreement on the first part, but as for the second...
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