Author Topic: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6  (Read 162271 times)

Bananamatic

Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #90 on: February 22, 2010, 10:12:22 PM »
I always find that either the bullets fit right in the gap between the lasers and one wave goes pretty much everything at once, which is...luck based :V

Jaimers

  • You just did it because you're older than me.
Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #91 on: February 22, 2010, 10:16:02 PM »
Shou's second nonspell. I doubt ANYONE can do it constantly.

Hi. o/

I always find that either the bullets fit right in the gap between the lasers and one wave goes pretty much everything at once, which is...luck based :V

Protip: go to the left for more breathing room.

Bananamatic

Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #92 on: February 22, 2010, 10:19:37 PM »
Hi. o/
Normal people only :V

Protip: go to the left for more breathing room.
that's why I don't like touhou that much anymore

"do this to make it easier"
"this is impossible at the bottom"
"follow this path"
"you are doing it wrong"

I just want to fucking dodge. Not follow some set of rules made up by a permanently drunk dude.

LHCling

  • Metang@
  • ( 。゚ 3っ   )っ
Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #93 on: February 22, 2010, 10:39:42 PM »
Normal people only :V
But, you're talking about Lunatic difficulty, right? So naturally, the only people who can do it consistently are well, the Lunatics  :V

"do this to make it easier"
"this is impossible at the bottom"
"follow this path"
"you are doing it wrong"
It's all the same thing, just worded differently! It's still possible to everything by sightread; it's just that it's a known fact from experimentation that going about it in a certain way makes it easier; doesn't this apply to all shmups? Example, when a boss shoots bullets that bounce off the bottom of the screen (hint hint), wouldn't the general consensus of advice be "get off the bottom"?

I just want to fucking dodge.
***DBDB. Cat Walk. BoWaP. BOOKS. Insect Nest. Midboss Orin. Parasol Star Memories. Bone Dry Monster. Anchor spam. Greatest Treasure. Shou's second nonspell. Vajra. Magic Milky Way. Hina's spellcards. Hydro Camouflage. Peerless Wind God. Midnight Anathema Ritual. Yamame's opener. Kanako's opener.***

The difficulty is way too jumpy - it goes from simple streaming to crazy walls, then it feels like Normal.
Ok, I appear to be missing something. Therefore
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 10:41:47 PM by Baity »
[16:25] <Kuruminut> Shut up MS Word, "fangirlism" is totally a word
<>
[07:59] <Sapz> ベーティさんは馬鹿っぽいだろう、この「っぽい」好き者

Helion

  • I am the very model of a scientist salarian
Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #94 on: February 22, 2010, 10:43:22 PM »
We are talking about Lunatic, right?

Kanako's opener is fucking nuts.
To quote someone I can't remember, he said of that attack that "it sucked really really really really really really really really really really really really bad". It's incredibly fast, and hypnotizingly difficult to read. It's essentially a forced bomb, because basically you're not consciously dodging, it's your subconcious using peripheral, unfocused vision.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 10:45:56 PM by Van Helion »

Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #95 on: February 22, 2010, 10:43:55 PM »
What's with all this useless talk about 'BS' patterns?

You guys are given bombs for a reason.  Use them.

Thata no Guykoro

  • I ran out of good lines a while ago
  • It alllll makes sense now
Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #96 on: February 22, 2010, 10:47:39 PM »
I continue trying to beat SWR Story Mode on Normal with all characters.

except that nearly every time Tenshi's final spellcard demolishes me augh

(Sorry if I'm not supposed to bring up the fighters here. >.>)

Bananamatic

Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #97 on: February 22, 2010, 10:59:28 PM »
It's all the same thing, just worded differently! It's still possible to everything by sightread; it's just that it's a known fact from experimentation that going about it in a certain way makes it easier; doesn't this apply to all shmups?
Not really. How can you sightread stuff like Trauma in the Glimmering Depths or Guest Stars? I fail every single MoF card because I didn't bother to learn them.

Red Frog is also apparently easy, yet I find it bullshit because you got to move in a certain pattern or you get walled. Same for NDL, go in one direction to trivialize it, go in other to die. And the game gives no indications on how to move.

Try to sightread Terrifying Hypnotism. Until somebody pointed out that the bubbles shoot in the direction the lasers turn, I couldn't survive a single round.

Or Ichirin's second to last card.

Or UFO in general.
I couldn't 1cc Hard until somebody pointed out that my UFO chaining route was crap, so I spent 3 hours figuring out a better one and shat on it on my first attempt.

Tricks in Touhou don't make some attacks easier, they break the game.
Why can't bosses simply dump a ton of shit on me without any gimmicks or patterns?
Ok, I appear to be missing something. Therefore
Touhou is imbalanced.
Kanako's opener is basically WTF, Medoteko is apparently easy mode, her second nonspell is just right left right left without any actual dodging - while one of her earlier attacks is extremely hard.

Stage 1 or stage 6, the difficulty is all over the place.
Why did ZUN change Yuugi's first spell anyways? That thing isn't even Easy, it goes into a tutorial.

anyways, this discussion is stupid

Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #98 on: February 22, 2010, 11:39:19 PM »
Protip: go to the left for more breathing room.

Tried this.

Shou moves to the left hand side of the screen in two waves.

*presses X*
Quote from Myosotis:
"Marriage is a game you can't win. Also, no replay value and the level design is bullshit.

LHCling

  • Metang@
  • ( 。゚ 3っ   )っ
Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #99 on: February 23, 2010, 12:01:25 AM »
Not really. How can you sightread stuff like Trauma in the Glimmering Depths or Guest Stars? I fail every single MoF card because I didn't bother to learn them.
Fun fact: I never bothered learning either. I actually did sightread capture "Trauma in the (ry", but that may have been because I played on a lower difficulty first; needless to say, I was able to sightread capture it on Easy the first time I played. The same kind of principle applies for "Guest Stars"; it just happens to "wall" you in if you ignore the lasers bouncing off the sides of the field. Regarding learning, I have still yet to learn "Guest Stars", all I do is sightread it every time because the lasers move that slow. Bit blinding on the eyes though.

Red Frog is also apparently easy, yet I find it bullshit because you got to move in a certain pattern or you get walled. Same for NDL, go in one direction to trivialize it, go in other to die. And the game gives no indications on how to move.
"Red Frog" can be done starting anywhere on the screen, and it's concept should be picked up within the first 5 seconds of it starting. Besides, that's an Extra Spell Card and for the purposes of discussion, shouldn't really count. Why? Because Extra Stages are gimmick based. Example, "Honest Man's Death".

NDL, it's possible to go both ways actually. The game does give an indicator on how to move believe it or not. Assuming a really high intuition (ha, most likely not but let's just say so for the sake of argument) you would by the end of the 2nd cycle, realize that the laser pattern alternates. Though, this is definitely stretching my argument so I'll stop there for this point  :V

Try to sightread Terrifying Hypnotism. Until somebody pointed out that the bubbles shoot in the direction the lasers turn, I couldn't survive a single round.
Done actually. Believe it or not, it was all FEAR games as the Spell Card name suggests. I have a quote here from a certain person who commented about "sightreading" it:
Quote from: TMS
for luna, 'terrifying hypo' 's yellow bullets seem to be pushing you to move away from the giant bubble stream. i don't know about this, but it's what i noticed after doing it the first time. the only thing i actually died to from what i recall were the yellow bullets themselves because of the effect of the bullets themselves; you get dragged into the hypnotic pattern and lose sight of your hitbox particularly if you use marisa as she dresses in darker colours making it harder to see. naturally, unable to see yourself in an attack is a bad thing, i probably would've survived more if i hammered shift to give myself a blaring signal where my hitbox is - 3-

...if

can't say anything about hard or lower though unfortunately
Refer to attachment for details...? See end of post.

Or Ichirin's second to last card.
Understandable; I'll leave this. I actually forgot about this.

Why can't bosses simply dump a ton of shit on me without any gimmicks or patterns?Touhou is imbalanced.
Because "dumping a ton of shit" on you is apparently classified as BS? Besides, Touhou is all about the patterns, isn't it?

Why did ZUN change Yuugi's first spell anyways? That thing isn't even Easy, it goes into a tutorial.
Go download the trial from his site and find out?
Quote
anyways, this discussion is stupid
Quite. And it'll just loop itself until infinity.

I originally had a question here, but couldn't word it right, so I decided on this instead:
I just want to fucking dodge.
So quickly jumping back to this point, can you provide (an) example(s) from a target non-Touhou shmup?

Alright, that's enough walling for today; after the examples that will be it.

...what a good typing exercise.

Tried this.
You can also move to the right side if you so wish. And Syou constantly moving to the left isn't a bad thing at all; when it comes to the extremeties, the lasers can go off-screen and never return back on-screen to clip you from that side.

Attachment is broken and should not exist.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 12:14:34 AM by Baity »
[16:25] <Kuruminut> Shut up MS Word, "fangirlism" is totally a word
<>
[07:59] <Sapz> ベーティさんは馬鹿っぽいだろう、この「っぽい」好き者

Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #100 on: February 23, 2010, 12:15:49 AM »
Same for NDL, go in one direction to trivialize it, go in other to die. And the game gives no indications on how to move
...um...when the lasers move to the left, you should move to the left so you don't smash into them? :V

LHCling

  • Metang@
  • ( 。゚ 3っ   )っ
Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #101 on: February 23, 2010, 12:39:46 AM »
Actually, screw that, here's why he changed it:

Picture trying to do that with with a non-Forward Type, and then you'll understand why he changed it.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 12:41:30 AM by Baity »
[16:25] <Kuruminut> Shut up MS Word, "fangirlism" is totally a word
<>
[07:59] <Sapz> ベーティさんは馬鹿っぽいだろう、この「っぽい」好き者

Bananamatic

Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #102 on: February 23, 2010, 12:54:30 AM »
Some examples of other games?
I originally had a question here, but couldn't word it right, so I decided on this instead:So quickly jumping back to this point, can you provide (an) example(s) from a target non-Touhou shmup?
Esp.Ra.De's second to last boss.
Constant dodging, hard, but never too hard.

The background also has to do something with how fun the game is - Touhou's static backgrounds compared to say, again, Esp.Ra.De's stage 4.
Fast scrolling, explosions, lots of bullets, but never crossing the line between fair but hard and bullshit.

To not be a complete ass, Touhou attacks which I like:

VoWG, Fantasy Seal: Fader, Asteroid Belt, Ephemerality, Astronomical Entombing, Game of Rising, Chaos Dance, Flower Dream Vine, Extreme Color Typhoon, Grudge Bow, Q.E.D.

Patchouli could be potentially fun if EoSD had better hitboxes. Put her into IN complete with spell practice and she becomes one fun fight.

Yeah, I know that spell was changed because it was too hard...but my point is, why did he change it so much that it's laughable even on Lunatic?

LHCling

  • Metang@
  • ( 。゚ 3っ   )っ
Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #103 on: February 23, 2010, 01:38:50 AM »
The background also has to do something with how fun the game is - Touhou's static backgrounds compared to say, again, Esp.Ra.De's stage 4.
Fast scrolling, explosions, lots of bullets, but never crossing the line between fair but hard and bullshit.
I swear I've heard similar. I wonder who from  :V

Yeah, I know that spell was changed because it was too hard...but my point is, why did he change it so much that it's laughable even on Lunatic?
When you think about it for a bit, it's actually quite difficult to balance. Considering the nature of the components of the Spell Card (e.g. destructible rings) and the large differences between Shot Types, it's quite difficult to find a compromise. Even at this point (of being trivial to Forwards), Aya!Reimu still has difficulty with this Spell Card at 2.xx Power and above.

EDIT: ...this Topic Title isn't as awesome.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 01:43:18 AM by Baity »
[16:25] <Kuruminut> Shut up MS Word, "fangirlism" is totally a word
<>
[07:59] <Sapz> ベーティさんは馬鹿っぽいだろう、この「っぽい」好き者

Bananamatic

Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #104 on: February 23, 2010, 01:43:36 AM »
I swear I've heard similar. I wonder who from  :V
I don't get this :V

ZUN could just entirely scrap that card and make it a different one. The idea is pretty bad by itself.

Sapz

  • There's no escape.
  • *
  • It's time to burn!
Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #105 on: February 23, 2010, 01:59:41 AM »
I swear I've heard similar. I wonder who from  :V
I wonder if it was from me. :V

While we're on the subject of fun stages, I just have to plug Dodonpachi Stage 6. I've mentioned this stage before, but it really is so consistently varied, challenging, fair and fun... I'd probably go as far as to call it my favourite shmup stage section. It's also nice and colourful, for those complaining about the palette. :V
Let's fight.

Bananamatic

Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #106 on: February 23, 2010, 02:07:52 AM »
if it ain't got more colours than the gay pride flag, it ain't fun

/fanboy

but yeah, st6 DDP is fun :V

Formless God

Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #107 on: February 23, 2010, 04:49:08 AM »
Quote
Why can't bosses simply dump a ton of shit on me without any gimmicks or patterns?

Peerless Wind God would want a word with you :V
OH, and Grudge Bow's timeout phase >:3

Quote
Fast scrolling, explosions, lots of bullets, but never crossing the line between fair but hard and bullshit.

Despite having less play time than you, I've seen most if not everything of Touhou, and I can say it is fair but hard and not bullshit.

Quote
Try to sightread Terrifying Hypnotism. Until somebody pointed out that the bubbles shoot in the direction the lasers turn, I couldn't survive a single round.

Doesn't the yellow wave pretty much force you to go against the lasers' turn ? :V

Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #108 on: February 23, 2010, 04:55:32 AM »
Random crap is what usually leads to walling. Not counting stuff that needs to be memorized to avoid it.

More IN/MoF/SA Danmaku or random stuff that isn't luckshit like most of EoSD and UFO. PCB isn't much better for me, but maybe I'd change my mind on that if I played it more.

I don't mind read and dodge, in fact I prefer it over micromem as well, but I'll take micromem over luckshit randomness.

Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #109 on: February 23, 2010, 05:18:31 AM »
All one-player shmups are nothing but complete memorization-fests.  Whether it's Touhou or Cave or X-Multiply or whatever.  If you don't think that Cave games are all memorization, then you've never put actual serious effort into scoring in one of them.  Guess what, it's all memorization, just as much as it is in Touhou.

The stages are all the same, with enemies appearing in the same place every time, shooting patterns that act in the same way every time, that you approach using the same strategies every time.  If you're playing these games the way they were meant to be played, the only twitch-dodging you'd be doing would be during attacks that you find trivial anyway.  Anything else, you'd trivialize with a bomb, which is itself a form of memorization.

Yep, it's all memorization.  You want gimmickless pattern-reading, go play some Tetris or some shit.

...


Kay, how was that?  sry, I'm new to this whole trolling thing.

Forte Blackadder

  • 雲龍九現
  • Thi?n Giả L?ng Y?u
    • FaceBook
Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #110 on: February 23, 2010, 12:55:07 PM »
Angry smashing keyboard fight: vs Aya Lunatic Match Mode in PoFV :V
That wind god girl is a haxxor :V She didn't even need to use bomb after 30 minutes torturing me :V

Helion

  • I am the very model of a scientist salarian
Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #111 on: February 23, 2010, 01:18:05 PM »
Random crap is what usually leads to walling. Not counting stuff that needs to be memorized to avoid it.

More IN/MoF/SA Danmaku or random stuff that isn't luckshit like most of EoSD and UFO. PCB isn't much better for me, but maybe I'd change my mind on that if I played it more.

I don't mind read and dodge, in fact I prefer it over micromem as well, but I'll take micromem over luckshit randomness.
This, but partly. I still love figuring out the gimmick for the non random rain spell cards.

SupahVee1234

  • Koishi isn't cute
  • would you like some deathbomb
Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #112 on: February 23, 2010, 01:28:43 PM »
I actually prefer non-random patterns that start in different random positions. For example, in many boss nonspells, the boss randomly jumps to place to place and creates the same pattern. That requires reading and dodging and a bit of memory. I like that.

Bananamatic

Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #113 on: February 23, 2010, 01:42:52 PM »
Bosses should throw semi random shit, but it should be fair.

Books are stupidly hard, same goes for Peerless Wind God.

I don't mean completely random...I mean something like this

DgBarca

  • Umineko fuck yeah
  • Spoilers ?
Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #114 on: February 23, 2010, 02:04:42 PM »
Wait What ?
Everything before Byakuren was a accomplishment...I think I never deathbombed that good...before Byakuren...
[21:16] <redacted> dgbarca makes great work
[21:16] <redacted> i hope he'll make a full game once

Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #115 on: February 23, 2010, 04:30:50 PM »
Bosses should throw semi random shit, but it should be fair.

Are we talking about danmaku shooting games here or?

Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #116 on: February 23, 2010, 05:31:02 PM »
Why the hell can I not capture Terukuni Throughtout the World? I thought this thing was supposed to be her easiest spellcard.

I've fucking captured Peerless Wind God twice today bringing me to 3 captures on that and got close 3 other times today, but I can't get close on this supposedly easy one.

Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #117 on: February 23, 2010, 06:38:46 PM »
I watched the DDP S6 video and what i saw was a player spending a crapload of bombs whenever redirecting didn't serve. Has anyone outside of japanese super-playership even perfected that?

Try to sightread Terrifying Hypnotism. Until somebody pointed out that the bubbles shoot in the direction the lasers turn, I couldn't survive a single round.

I didn't know that but i still capture it consistently. I only really fail it with Marisa because of not being used to her movement speed.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 06:42:14 PM by Zengeku the Viking »

Bananamatic

Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #118 on: February 23, 2010, 06:52:53 PM »
Are we talking about danmaku shooting games here or?
Are you saying that bullet hell=unfair?

I watched the DDP S6 video and what i saw was a player spending a crapload of bombs whenever redirecting didn't serve. Has anyone outside of japanese super-playership even perfected that?
There are some good western players which have perfected that stage.
It's not that hard, I've had runs where I went for 50% of the stage no bomb no death.

It's hard, but it never crosses the border between hard and bullshit.

Re: Touhou ANGRY RAGING SMASH SMASH Thread #6
« Reply #119 on: February 23, 2010, 07:32:31 PM »
There are some good western players which have perfected that stage.
It's not that hard, I've had runs where I went for 50% of the stage no bomb no death.

It's hard, but it never crosses the border between hard and bullshit.

Is there any chance you could provide a video of that?