Author Topic: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]  (Read 114082 times)

Serp

  • It's all about overwhelming force and irresistible style
  • And in a pinch, style can slide
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1200 on: July 24, 2011, 02:05:07 PM »
Keep in mind that if Yuan hadn't been modkilled, she'd have needed to be lynched.  This would've put the game into 4p LyLo with Moonin still alive and Miya's result still appearing to clear Depore.  Town likely would've lost in that situation. (Derp, never mind, I miscounted)  In any case, considering ABGoM also came down to only one more unconfirmed player than the number of lynches the town had, I'm not inclined to consider this too ridiculous.

You underestimate the power of a dead confirmed townie coming back not only once, but every day.

And this is why I was kind of hoping that Mikhail was scum.  That would've been hilarious.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 02:07:24 PM by Serp »
[15:13] <Sana> >:<

Kilgamayan

  • True
  • *
  • The Real Treasure Is You
    • Let's Play Super Marisa World
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1201 on: July 24, 2011, 02:18:12 PM »
If Yuan was lynched Xix would have been tracked, not me.

I don't know how people would have reacted the next day, but I wouldn't have had the credit I got otherwise.
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
[22:40:21] <Drake> REPORTED
[22:40:25] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> PROBATED
[22:40:30] <Drake> ORGASM
[22:40:32] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> FUCK YEAH

[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

J.O.B

  • YOU CAN'T MAKE ME CHANGE
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1202 on: July 24, 2011, 02:18:55 PM »
If there is one thing I don't like about mafia it would have to be the activity.
There is generally little action in early game, and if you slip up bad enough there will be alot of posts pressuring you, plus the amount of cuts can become too big like that time Dormio had over 100 cuts (I think).

Also lol 1 cut.

Pesco

  • Trickster Rabbit Tewi
  • *
  • Make a yukkuri and take it easy with me
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1203 on: July 24, 2011, 02:27:37 PM »
Dormio gets his cuts by leaving the browser open for 8 hours.

J.O.B

  • YOU CAN'T MAKE ME CHANGE
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1204 on: July 24, 2011, 02:32:37 PM »
Silly Dormio, potatoes don't get that many cuts. They get more.

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1205 on: July 24, 2011, 03:04:35 PM »
I'll admit the thought had occurred to me Serp. Several times. But, no, I could tell he was town after the revives.


Schezo

  • en-counse
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1206 on: July 24, 2011, 04:01:32 PM »
[01:19:02] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> Ooh, other annoying thing this game.
[01:19:10] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> People using online times against each other.
[01:19:58] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> Last Active times are super lame reasons to suspect people. There are way too many potential extenuating circumstances.

If I see this in the future I will start rolling up newspapers and smacking heads. Stop it. >:|
I think I ranted about this in the hydra QT for a minute.  But yeah.

Anyways, 2/3 scum track even if 1 didn't work for diddly I'm glad I could use a town PR and not FUBAR it. :V

I learned quite a lot from this game.  It was fun but I think I'm taking a break for a while :<

Schezo4U

Though I didn't submit a watch before I bit the dust because I figured I was going to :V  Not sure who I would have chose.

JOB did well for his first game. 

If I had pulled my meta this game I'm not sure how I would feel but I don't know with how this game got to 3-way.  Yes it was town sided though.

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1207 on: July 24, 2011, 04:33:06 PM »
I think the main reason I made IffritaxMiya a 1 v. 1 was because they were BOTH awful looking. One of them essentially had to be scum. While the situation wasn't *objectively* a 1 v. 1, I feel in this situation, it *was* a 1 v. 1. If that makes any sense at all.

Anyway, K4U is pretty awesome at mafiers :V.


Lexicat

  • Cat in a Rage
  • Who am I again?
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1208 on: July 24, 2011, 04:56:16 PM »
Kilga did a good job to get himself into Lylo.

Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1209 on: July 24, 2011, 05:01:32 PM »
So did my DreamEat do anything besides make it look like I was fakeclaiming the nightkill? It's not mentioned in my role, and all the nightaction list says is "Given a silly reply."

What I like about this game was that the scum turned out to be, up until the time they were decisively caught, the last people I ever suspected. No, wait, I don't like that, actually. Even though it's funny, my confidence is completely shot. I shouldn't have even joined this game, should I?

Quote
plus the amount of cuts can become too big like that time Dormio had over 100 cuts (I think).
You could leave the browser open for a week, yet nothing will top my being cut by my own lynch, approximately one hour into the day.

This does explain why Miya felt like lurkerscum to me what with being both a lurker, and a scum. But yeah, I did so bad this game, it's not even funny. I feel like I'm the sole reason we even got to lylo, and the game turned around pretty quickly when I did die.

Hero999

  • Banzai!
  • Beep~
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1210 on: July 24, 2011, 05:12:06 PM »
I think I did pretty bad, Quite bad, yes quite bad...
Though I'm happy I survived till NK, I still feel useless.

Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1211 on: July 24, 2011, 05:14:20 PM »
I think I did pretty bad, Quite bad, yes quite bad...
Though I'm happy I survived till NK, I still feel useless.
Maybe earlygame, but your competence slowly increased as the game went on. I don't think you were that bad of a newbie.

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1212 on: July 24, 2011, 05:15:46 PM »
Both the newbies did really well, IMO. I never felt once like "Oh God I want you dead regardless of alignment", which is pretty good.


Schezo

  • en-counse
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1213 on: July 24, 2011, 05:16:25 PM »
Oh you darn Zak~

Dorian White

  • The most handsome non-vampire diplomat you ever encountered ~
  • With a Gandalf like evolution.
Bella gerant alii, tu felix Gensokyo nube. Nam quae Mars aliis, dat tibi diva Venus.

Bardiche

  • Mafia: Worst Game Ever
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1215 on: July 24, 2011, 05:52:11 PM »
So, thoughts on the game.

First of all. It should be noted Kiro actually objected the role, but I ignored it, so any complaints regarding this rule should be mine and mine alone. :V Although I appreciate Kiro willingly taking the blame for it. I had some longer spiel here but I don't think people'd appropriately understand the main point so scrapping that etc.

Secondly... I feel Town was lucky, or scum was just unlucky; having Iffrita tracked N1, Caladbolg shooting Iffrita instead of Miya and Yuan getting modkilled put their chances into jeopardy greatly. Could scum have won despite Mikhail? I feel they could. Naturally, I also feel that if Mikhail had not been in the game, D2 would've looked mighty different, and it effectively rendered the NK null. I'd considered Iffrita's self-governing power, Yuan's roleblock immunity in a setup with three town roleblockers and Depore's track immunity in a game where Miya was the only reliable Town-aligned Tracker to be quite scum-slanted but obviously, derpBard etc.

Third. I think hydras should not be permitted again. Of the three hydras I had to warn two about their conduct, as the hydra players in question were not acting in a mentor capacity, but moreso in a capacity of "here, let me help you play the game by doing your work for you"; this was not the intention of hydras, and thus I will never play in a game where there are hydras, as it gives an unfair advantage to any one player beyond role shens.

Well, that's mostly it. I'm disappointed mostly with myself for Mikhail's role and how it turned into an absolute failure (no revive at LYLO was a planned aspect of the role to prevent functional lynch immunity by reviving the towniest town ever), but I suppose the game was enjoyable for what it was worth.

I won't be releasing the mod QT to the public, or any of the QTs: people may release those at their own behest.


As a final note, to those people who were massively displeased with the setup: stop acting as if Pesco, Kiro and I will repeat a mistake as this. We overlooked a critical aspect, and yes, I deserve blame for not fixing it or heeding the opinions of the co-mods properly, but I feel it to be out-of-proportion to assume that any of the mods involved in this game would permit such an unbalancing feature to exist again in a game.

We're already aware the setup had some faults in it, but all I hear is "mikhail so OP". If it was just one role, and a specific aspect of the role (multi-shot use), you can rest assured future spins of powerful roles would be examined closer.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 06:49:47 PM by Bardiche »

Pesco

  • Trickster Rabbit Tewi
  • *
  • Make a yukkuri and take it easy with me
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1216 on: July 24, 2011, 05:58:01 PM »
This game won't be counted towards clearing LLD's first Yellow. The Yellow received this game will stay on record for 2 games on top of the one remaining.

Kiro

  • Drinks: Everything
  • Sleeps: Anywhere
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1217 on: July 24, 2011, 07:55:09 PM »
In regards to me objecting to the role, I did, but I felt I wasn't forceful enough. I spent about 2 QT posts talking about that when I spent more on other aspects of the setup. I was also moderately convinced after Bard's reply that it wouldn't be as big of a deal since I thought Scum would only have to deal with a confirmed Townie's opinions (not as damning) and I forgot about a confirmed Townie's counterclaiming (very damning). It was thought Scum could just kill Mikhail off, but we underestimated how difficult it would have been given game circumstances. So I still think I dropped the ball as well in my co-mod duty.

Secondly... I feel Town was lucky, or scum was just unlucky; having Iffrita tracked N1, Caladbolg shooting Iffrita instead of Miya and Yuan getting modkilled put their chances into jeopardy greatly. Could scum have won despite Mikhail? I feel they could. Naturally, I also feel that if Mikhail had not been in the game, D2 would've looked mighty different, and it effectively rendered the NK null. I'd considered Iffrita's self-governing power, Yuan's roleblock immunity in a setup with three town roleblockers and Depore's track immunity in a game where Miya was the only reliable Town-aligned Tracker to be quite scum-slanted but obviously, derpBard etc.

I agree with all of the above. In a game where everyone has a significant non-Vanilla role, I still think Bard put together something very good balance-wise barring the multi-shottage of Mikhail. My opinion is that without Just, it would be pretty even. With Just, it was tilted towards Town at the start and possibly towards Scum at the end if Scum were steamrolling. Overall, it favored Town, but certain events having gone a different way could have shifted things heavily. Caladbolg's vig worked for Town in the best way possible by shooting Iffrita before the Self-Governor. Otherwise, Town goes into a push with Caladbolg vigging her the following Day. Depore's N3 NK also served its function. Town also indirectly hurt themselves by lynching Just Day 1. And Yuan's mistake of Jailing Mala instead of Miya would have resulted in a completely different Day 2 (no NK, no Track on Iffrita). Such a change might have actually served Scum better this game. A swingy game, but that's role madness for you.

I don't think it's fair to say the ScumTeam were put into a trap with their roles. Their synergy is really good all around and when they were discussing what to do N1 and with the game setup relatively unknown, there were obvious benefits to having any of the 3 go out to NK. If it had been structured so that only Depore had some kind of special immunity, then you might all be arguing that Town was trapped into chasing people who had visited slain targets while the Scum laughs in the QT. Which could have very well happened anyways. Once again, it's not really an issue of balance, but of luck or swinginess and that's what you can expect when you sign up for role madness.

Why couldn't I revive Miya again?

Mod interference?
It was always intended that you couldn't revive during LYLO. It just wasn't put in your role PM as a hidden aspect of your role.

So did my DreamEat do anything besides make it look like I was fakeclaiming the nightkill? It's not mentioned in my role, and all the nightaction list says is "Given a silly reply."
I actually don't know the answer to this. Your role PM says, "You may DreamEat someone to learn more about their dreams and ambitions." I had assumed it would function as a weak Cop or Flavor Cop, but the pie thing really doesn't mean anything for the game setup so that's why I wrote what I wrote in the Night Action list. Bard handled all the Night Actions resolutions.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 08:00:26 PM by Kiro »

Kilgamayan

  • True
  • *
  • The Real Treasure Is You
    • Let's Play Super Marisa World
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1218 on: July 24, 2011, 08:08:06 PM »
Once again, it's not really an issue of balance, but of luck or swinginess and that's what you can expect when you sign up for role madness.

This depends on the mod, both in terms of how good they are at general setup balance and how far they're willing to go with roles. I don't think it's something a role madness mod should resign themselves to, I think it's something they should actively try to avoid.
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
[22:40:21] <Drake> REPORTED
[22:40:25] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> PROBATED
[22:40:30] <Drake> ORGASM
[22:40:32] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> FUCK YEAH

[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1219 on: July 24, 2011, 08:09:33 PM »
I don't mind swinginess, and honestly, I think this set up suffered from the same thing Jojo's did. A good set up broken in half by one role.


Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1220 on: July 24, 2011, 08:16:24 PM »
the game does feel like it could have gone either way. any number of things could have happened to make this a scum win. The important thing to note about town role balance is that there will be a certain point where adding more roles inherently messed up the town's chances, due to roles stomping all over each other, and having an overall increased dependance on them. town are naturally more inclined to believe "This is information the mod gave me." over "This is what i think might have happened."

Also, that's what I figured would happen with my role, but then I got the pie thing and was even more confused/disappointed. It did tell me I had a good feeling about One, but I couldn't tell if it was just because of One's alignment, or more flavor. I completely discounted it when One then claimed every-other-night cop, which shot any chance of my dreameat being anything.

Cut: The Original Moriya Shrine Mafia suffered from broken role syndrome as well, It's a very easy trap to fall into when you're making up new roles.

Bardiche

  • Mafia: Worst Game Ever
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1221 on: July 24, 2011, 08:31:07 PM »
Right, ze DreamEat, it did nothing. It'd get a joke result no matter who you'd DreamEat. I assumed you would not want to switch PsychoLinks EVERY NIGHT, and decided to offer an option to do something else if you weren't doing anything anyway.

Also, honourary award to Huh What for guessing almost all players correctly. :V

Regarding Kilga, I think it's a difference in How To Mod a Proper Game that we'll probably never settle. I think a game is most fun and exciting if it can swing either way repeatedly, although I clearly failed in that regard here with Mikhail de-motivating the scum team too much. Of course, given that four players actively took steps to spite me with deliberate intention is telling of how frustrating the setup must have been for those involved, but it was equally frustrating to the mods to realise their error and be slammed for it during the past two or three Days of the game.

Kilgamayan

  • True
  • *
  • The Real Treasure Is You
    • Let's Play Super Marisa World
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1222 on: July 24, 2011, 08:36:26 PM »
My problem with swinginess is that it means the game is being decided less by the players and more by the role PMs. I guess if people prefer that, then more power to them, but I like to maximize the effect skill has on the outcome of a game, and I've found one of the best ways, if not THE best way, to do that is by minimizing the effect luck has on the outcome of the game.

A game is a lot more satisfying to me when I win on my own merits or lose on my own mistakes, things I can control, than when I win or lose on outside circumstances and things I can't control. It makes me feel like it was actually me playing the game, and validates the effort I put into playing more.
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
[22:40:21] <Drake> REPORTED
[22:40:25] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> PROBATED
[22:40:30] <Drake> ORGASM
[22:40:32] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> FUCK YEAH

[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Dormio Ergo Sum

  • MotK's Official Idlebot
  • *
  • I don't bite... much.
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1223 on: July 24, 2011, 08:50:21 PM »
Dormio gets his cuts by leaving the browser open for 8 hours.
It was 120 cuts because I went to play a game of DotS.

Ouja

  • Ouja
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1224 on: July 24, 2011, 08:57:48 PM »
I will release my QTs shortly.  We had fun.

For what it's worth let me step in here and say that this game wasn't all LOL ROLES OP.  Both town and scum displayed great skill this game, and most importantly, this town was paranoid.  I really don't think scum are giving this aspect of the game more credit.  This town never once suspended disbelief and in turn this restricted what Scum could get away with saying.  On the flip-side, everyone felt the pressure.  Even I did with my oh-so-op role. 

About my role, I'm a little surprised scum didn't kill me off right-away.  (Then again Mala did protect me N2).  Was my role broken?  Perhaps.  But it certainly wasn't an auto-win.  Shadoweh literally killed one scum and caught the other BY HERSELF.  Mala needed to CC which wasn't forced, UK's revival only strengthened the case for HW scum only a little bit.  One confirmed Miya as town even though Schezo was looking like confirmed town already (it helped a lot of course).

I think town did a fanastic job this game, with people getting superb gut reads regularly. (me not included)

So good job town!

Dormio Ergo Sum

  • MotK's Official Idlebot
  • *
  • I don't bite... much.
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1225 on: July 24, 2011, 09:04:19 PM »
I was surprised by the fact that I wasn't rolecopped on N1.
When Yuan claimed jailer, I thought that they knew what my role in the game was.
My jailer looks scummier than Yuan's. (Full action immunity whee)
Turns out they didn't, and as Kiro said, it was really bad luck that I was confirmed town when I counterclaimed Yuan.

Also in regards to being roleblocked N1, in my rants about divination, my first post on D2 had be going on about how I was interrupted during the night.

Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1226 on: July 24, 2011, 09:05:13 PM »
I do definitely agree with Dan that both sides played fairly competently this game. It made things interesting.

Ouja

  • Ouja
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1227 on: July 24, 2011, 09:15:30 PM »
My OTP's

http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/G5VWFGLh7M6
http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/4VESGQmZYkkKc
http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/W72LffcjbFyu

I really wanted Moonin to be scum so that perhaps maybe Bard would let me revive everyone during fake-Lylo.

Lexicat

  • Cat in a Rage
  • Who am I again?
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1228 on: July 24, 2011, 11:03:51 PM »
General Rule of Balancing: For every power, there needs to be an equal and opposite counter balancing power.
 
If the Scum's NK is going to be crippled, you need to give them a power to counter it. In this case, giving the scum a x-shot obliteration power (when they kill, the kill is strongarm and cannot fail + the player they kill is mutilated beyond revival) would have helped enormously.  X is an integer matching the number of reviver shots Mikhail has.
 
This helps the scum fight the 3 (count them 3) RBers and the reviver, but also keeps the powers of town intact, depending on how effectively scum uses their power/how well town uses theirs. It's a skill thing then, with both sides equal.
 
It's hard to do this sometimes, when you feel like you're over powering a certain team/ you want to give EVERYONE a power.
 
I don't think Bard should be blamed for the setup... it's certainly interesting... but I think that people should follow the above rule beyond any other, when balancing a game. There are other things to consider obviously, but this rule is a good way to prevent game breaking scenarios and powers.
 
[/mytwocents]
 

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1229 on: July 24, 2011, 11:19:15 PM »
That's something I realized a while ago and promptly forgot in Jojo's :P. About roles countering roles.