RosenKreuzStilette Mafia - Game Over

[FinnKaenbyou]

It gets people talking. That's all that matters early on, when pretty much all arguments are going to be flawed somehow anyway or otherwise based on local memes or relationships.

It gets people talking about nothing. That isn't discussion, it's noise. It's the difference between a case with no evidence and a case with poor evidence. The latter gets people talking productively. The former makes people turn around in unison and declare you clueless.

How much time did we lose today to UD and UK's arguing?

[Carthrat]

You say 'time lost', I say 'useful discussion to be analyzed later down the track, in light of flips'. There is no evidence early on, and talking about phantoms is no different than talking about insults at this point.

[EvilTom]

Wow. Nietz man. My scumdar just started ringing like crazy.

Alright, I see the point against 'nako. His actions do have all the look of trying to slip an easy vote in the wagon of the hour. Could be, as someone mentioned, a spineless town, but could even more easily be a spineless scum.

Chaore doesn't look any better for me, in fact worse. Looks too much like cornered scum, trying find any way out.

Right now these are the only ones I feel like voting, and I'm very indecisive at that. Chaore is the leading wagon right, but Kanako still can be worked as an alternative.
I'm still going with ##Vote Chaore since it was my intention before, we can see about Kanako later.

I forced him to take action, and what does he finally do? Jump on the easy Chaore bandwagon of course.

He gives reason to vote Kanako, then says "But Chaore has more votes, so I'll vote him!" What the fuck.

Sure Chaore looks bad, but it looks as much like flailing town as anything to me (especially with Tewi's assaults etc.) but bandwagoning looks even worse, especially when you list reason to vote x then say 'but y is worse! I'll vote y!'.

There's no way this major slip-up can be ignored.

##Vote Neitz

[EvilTom]

I'm a noob.

##Unvote;
##Vote Nietz

[Kitten4u]

Welcome to the game Rou~

@Chaore
Can you answer the question I ask at the top of this post please?

Taking it easy on you for now because I was sort of the one who convinced you to join,

I don't like this.  Being the reason someone decided to play has no bearing on whether they'd be town or scum, so using that as a reason to not pressure someone is terrible.

I see no reason to change my vote right now.

[Chaore]

I answered that. A good while ago.

20 Minutes to think it over, and comments on how I should take a side already.

[Kitten4u]

I answered that. A good while ago.

20 Minutes to think it over, and comments on how I should take a side already.

In that case I'd direct you to the query I made shortly after you said that, but I'll do this instead.  Let me make sure I'm understanding this right.  When you voted for UD you only did so because people were telling you to take a side and you didn't have much time to think about the vote?  Then what's this (and this)? 

Either that didn't answer my question or I'm not understanding something.  I'm asking what changed between this post where you said you didn't know who was scum and this post where you vote for UD.  According to the cases you posted it looks like everything you found suspicious had already happened before you posted that "undecided" post, but you didn't seem to think that UD was scum then.  What changed?  What made UD vote-worthy when you voted him, but not before?

[Chaore]

.... I don't get why you linked those two. But let me reiterate. It wasn't things changed, its that I rethought.

UD did not change in those 20 minutes, My thoughts did. I had to rethink what I'd said before and disregard it- For one thing, I probably did not say half what I said to justify my vote when I was undecided now, did I?

[Shizumarashi Mayuzumi]

Alice: Holy walls of text, Batman! Seriously, though, lots of analysis, and I'm not seeing anything in particular I disagree with. If anything seems fishy at all, it's the constant amounts of "oh god you're all morons" (esp. in 180), but then again, that's also just how he is, and so with regards to Mafia I suppose it's probably null. Heavily leaning town.

Carthrat: I highly disagree with the implication in 272 that the whole UD/UK dealy was any sort of useful discussion, given it was mostly UD taking everything way too emotionally/personally and imploding. That doesn't even count as "flawed arguments" (270), it's just "wordswordswords". Even if assuming a neutral position on the question of UD/Rou's alignment, this defense feels scummy, moreso than Zak's (will get to Zak down the line). I've got my eye on you.

Chaore: OH GOD THE WEASELING. There's a whooooooole lot of "look at me I'm doing things!" flailing that's not actually doing things (264, 276, 278 jump out at me in particular - especially on 276, it'd be nice to see a post number where your answer is since you made such a big deal about seeing the light~ on referencing in 207), defending self without giving any reasons why we should go after anyone else. Most likely scum trying to save his own ass.

##Unvote
##Vote: Chaore

EvilTom:

The difference between "dumb town" and scum is nil, in my eyes. Dumb town is different to noob @ game. You're walking a very fine line there. It's a horrible idea to assume that 'no scum could be that stupid, it must be town.'

Isn't the part I emphasized incorrect by definition? Of course scum can be stupid, and of course dumb != noob nor vice-versa, but dumb town is still town. Whether or not UD (now Rou) actually is dumb town is still a question at hand, and I don't agree with Sodium concluding such just based on stupidity and gambits, but you seem to be taking the exact same tack the other way around. I don't have an opinion yet, but I haven't liked what I've seen either.

Kanako, Nietz:
Both similar: weak on opinions/waffly, but then again, I am myself just by nature, so I may be predisposed to see it as not automatically scummy even if perhaps I should (and I should probably try to fix that in myself =P). I do think I'd lean Nietz as scum over 'nako, especially with the "OK, yeah, bigger wagon" of 261, but even more generally I can look at them side-by-side since at the least there's 142/143 and 260/261 of the two back-to-back.

Pesco: There's a lot of poking people with sticks over analyzing them, but on the other hand, it's the people who are suspicious enough to be needing poked.

Rou(/UD): I know full well that UD's replacement would have the same role as UD did (re: UK 227), and I certainly don't think he was starting to look any more town (re: Edible 239), I just do think there stopped being anything out of UD but acting like a petulant child, and I don't feel I can get a read either way from that. I don't like seeing so little from Rou with regards to the stuff that happened before he showed up relative to his amount of activity now that he has, but that could merely be because a lot of the low-activity players (myself included) haven't given him much to go off of. No opinion either way for the time being.

Sodium: See the second half of what I said about EvilTom, since you're two sides of the same coin there - I don't like the implication of "dumb = scum" from him, but I don't like the opposite assertion any more. Otherwise, I'm not seeing much that jumps out particularly either way.

Zak: I don't like how strongly he's insisting that UD was town, but that's nothing that hasn't already been said by, well, everyone. I do love how he asks other people to scumhunt (96), but I'm not seeing any of it from him. I'd rather see reporter-style summaries than absolutely nothing, and granted, he hasn't been active since 199, but a lot of people had posted by then, if well short of everyone. Probably my second choice for scum - moreso because of the latter point than the former.

[Kitten4u]

...Yeah, my vote's in the right place.  I get the feeling you don't really care about finding scum.  You also seem to be very interested in self-preservation. 

Scum are the only people that aren't interested in finding scum because they already know who their enemies are; there's no real need for them to "hunt" like townies that don't know who their enemies are need to.  Not wanting to be lynched is normal regardless of alignment, but to the extent you do it, and the things you say are very scummy.  None of your reasons for not switching off of UD have been "other people aren't scummy" it's been "I can't justify it."  And if we even get into what you said when you voted for UD...it wasn't "this guy's scummy" it was "this guy's not worth defending."  You did post reasons, but they were after the vote and after people called you out on it, so I have to question if it was something you just came up with because you felt like you need to.

[Chaore]

Haven't you actually done the same? You've not given anything in length till FAR FAR after you voted me. Yours and Alice's initial shots seemed mostly out of the blue.

You've even had to say 'I totally feel like this is right' like you just tacked on a vote and went for it, breathing a sigh of relief after it went well for you. I shouldn't even needed to post about how much I've actually HAD to be in defense, because I'm the huge focus and no one does anything but try to attack me. I can do great deal of scumhunting with that.

[Kitten4u]

Haven't you actually done the same? You've not given anything in length till FAR FAR after you voted me. Yours and Alice's initial shots seemed mostly out of the blue.

This is where I vote for you.  It is also my first post, so it makes no sense to call it "out of the blue" as that implies and I had actually said stuff that had nothing to do with you and suddenly switched.  I also explain my reasons in the same post and they fully revolve around "scum is more likely to do this."

I can do great deal of scumhunting with that.

I'm assuming you mean can't here.  And that is not true, you can totally attack and defend at the same time.

As for the middle part, I have no clue what you're trying to say there.

[Chaore]

I was being sarcastic there, I don't think you need to point that out.

Also, Yes, I noticed. I completely forgot that was your reason, It just seemed to be a picked out response and the same hand picked and used generic reason every other voter had.

[Kitten4u]

I was being sarcastic there, I don't think you need to point that out.

Being sarcastic where? :S

Also, Yes, I noticed. I completely forgot that was your reason, It just seemed to be a picked out response and the same hand picked and used generic reason every other voter had.

Are you saying that I was following people? 

[Sodium]

Kitten4u: It was only for that post, and forcing someone in, and then immediately being harsh on them would make me feel like a jackass. So I just gave some criticism for that post. You'll notice that for his next (two, but it should've been 1 really) post, I tell him that they suck because he didn't vote after giving his "Who I think are scum", and that he's scummy because of that.

tl;dr: Don't feel like being a huge douche. Gave some leeway for 1 post, and then that's it.

Chaore: Nice misrep, bro.

Also. 'Well you're not immediately trying to start another train with little to no good reasoning, and sticking on a train you're still not discounted on. You should vote for YOURSELF. How dare you. SCUM.' It just seems to be reasoning to hop on a train, to me.

There's all this worry about being safe and wanting to clear up your theories and 'oh I don't know anything about anyone else'. These are not the marks of a true scumhunter, but rather the mark of someone picking out lynches he finds convenient rather than justified.

I fail to see the resemblance. He voted you because you're not scumhunting in his opinion.

Carth: Pisses people off, often making anyone look more scummy. Causes someone to be lynched with almost universal approval most of the time, making it harder to analyse things, possibly turning the whole thing into a nulltell. I'm all for discussion, but it needs to be done in a way that isn't just going to cause antagonization.

Pesco's post never happen. (Post 253 for details)
Unless the "Arrow at Mindhax>Logic" post was the post he said he was making.

Arashi: My argument for it are based on the fact it's happened in other games. Town is more likely to do what UD did from my experience. That and UD just felt like a dumb town. Misguided, but with some semblance of trying to help. Sorta. It's weird.

[Serp]

I don't think we're going to get a scum flip out of Chaore.  Ideally, only scum should be the ones that worry about defending themselves (except for townie power roles, which reminds me - Chaore, you're at L-2 with a quarter of the day left, you should probably roleclaim), but it's a really really common newbtown mistake to panic and get frustrated about being the vote leader and not knowing how to get the town's eyes off you.  In that situation, most new players will fall back on the "I know I'm town, so lynching anyone but me is protown" defense.  Chaore isn't playing a very good game, but I don't think he looks like scum.

I'm keeping my vote on Kanako.  I find it suspicious that he hasn't gotten more flak for being extremely noncommital all day.  This Chaore wagon became dominant too easy, too.

[Chaore]

Chaore, you're at L-2 with a quarter of the day left, you should probably roleclaim

Wait what? People actually -seriously- try and claim they're a role as a defense?

I thought that was a myth.

[Serp]

Wait what? People actually -seriously- try and claim they're a role as a defense?

I thought that was a myth.

Well, depending on the circumstances, someone who claims a verifiable role might be given a chance to prove that they actually have that role.  Just keep in mind that if you're really townie, you really shouldn't lie about your role just to get someone else lynched in your place.  Claiming to be the Cop might draw the real Cop out to counterclaim, if it looks like you're going to get by without getting lynched, and that would screw the town over pretty well.

Read posts 412 to 534 here for an example of how claims can work out.

[Kilgamayan]

Let's Play Danmaku Detective Game! Day 1 Vote Count:

Kanako (2): Pesco, Carthrat, Serpentarius, UncertainKitten
Alice (0): Arashi, Nietz
Pesco (0): Edible, Chaore
UncertainKitten (1): Zakeri, UsuallyDead, UsuallyDead, Kanako, Kerigis
Chaore (7): Pesco, Zakeri, UsuallyDead, Kitten4u, Alice, UsuallyDead, Carthrat, Jam, Nietz, Arashi
Roukanken: (2): UncertainKitten, Edible, Carthrat, Arashi Kurobara, Nietz, Chaore, Kanako
Zakeri (2): Sodium, Roukanken
Sodium (1): Alice
Pesco (0): EvilTom
Nietz (1): EvilTom

No vote cast: Kanako

Bold indicates a vote currently in play.
Italics indicates a vote that was cast and then rescinded.

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch. You have ~11.5 hours remaining.

Chaore is at L-2.

[Chaore]

The best part was Edible.

Roleclaim: Survivor.

[Pesco]

I don't like how Serp's post on claiming could have just said 'Tell the truth' instead of advising how to draw out roles.

If that's a Survivor claim, you're still not permitted to live until LyLo.

[EvilTom]

Well then. Third party huh?

##Unvote;
##Vote: Charoe or Chaos or whatever the fuck you are PLEASE STOP CHANGING YOUR NAMES PEOPLE

Also I still think Nietz is scum, but that can wait till tomorrow.

[Pesco]

That's quite cute Tom. And you were jumping on people for the 'easy wagon'? Your vote means absolutely nothing, a throwaway.

[Kilgamayan]

Let's Play Danmaku Detective Game! Day 1 Vote Count:

Kanako (2): Pesco, Carthrat, Serpentarius, UncertainKitten
Alice (0): Arashi, Nietz
Pesco (0): Edible, Chaore
UncertainKitten (1): Zakeri, UsuallyDead, UsuallyDead, Kanako, Kerigis
Chaore (8): Pesco, Zakeri, UsuallyDead, Kitten4u, Alice, UsuallyDead, Carthrat, Jam, Nietz, Arashi, EvilTom
Roukanken: (2): UncertainKitten, Edible, Carthrat, Arashi Kurobara, Nietz, Chaore, Kanako
Zakeri (2): Sodium, Roukanken
Sodium (1): Alice
Pesco (0): EvilTom
Nietz (0): EvilTom

No vote cast: Kanako

Bold indicates a vote currently in play.
Italics indicates a vote that was cast and then rescinded.

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch. You have ~9 hours remaining.

Chaore is at L-1!

Names being changed are not the fault of the users. One of the mods is going on a Bemani pun spree. >_>

[FinnKaenbyou]

We have a deadline lynch anyway, so there's no point in hammering.

Zak, if you're out there, a response would be nice.

Serp emerging to say 'your lynch is useless, Chaore is clearly noob town' rings of the same scumminess I'm accusing Zak of having. (Though since Chaore's claimed third-party you could argue it's backfired.)

For all the talking that's been going on certain people have been particularly quiet. Edible? Jam? Kanako?

[Serp]

I don't like how Serp's post on claiming could have just said 'Tell the truth' instead of advising how to draw out roles.

Since Chaore's been more concerned with saving himself than with lynching scum, I was worried that he'd fakeclaim if I didn't tell him explicitly why he shouldn't.

Serp emerging to say 'your lynch is useless, Chaore is clearly noob town' rings of the same scumminess I'm accusing Zak of having.

I cited valid observations to back up that judgement.  Zakeri didn't.  Protown judgements aren't inherently scummy, and in the later parts of the day, you can't just sit on your preferred lynch and hope that all the other players will have a sudden change of heart.  Though, it looks like Chaore's not protown after all, so the point is moot.

[Pesco]

That's not good enough, Serp. Simply telling him to state the truth is sufficient. I didn't look at the link you gave him since I'm phoneposting, but it's not a stretch to see that you directed him to how to fakeclaim. Chaore is confirmed to die, now we have a Scum-in-front-of-me with you.

[FinnKaenbyou]

I didn't look at the link you gave him since I'm phoneposting, but it's not a stretch to see that you directed him to how to fakeclaim.

He linked Communication Breakdance D2 - i.e. Sodium fakeclaiming Doc and Serp waiting 100 posts to counterclaim. This is, well, sort of horrible.

But in any case, theories of scumpairs between the two should at least wait until after the lynch.

[Carthrat]

Serp isn't scummy because of 'instruction', that's just stupid. It could only possibly make sense if they were both scum and they couldn't communicate outside the thread.

For believing him in the first place when he says "What, people ROLECLAIM to NOT GET LYNCHED? this is unheard of" is somewhat weirder, yeah, that's questionable.

We have a deadline lynch anyway, so there's no point in hammering.

Yes there is, it gives closure, forestalls inane discussion, and sets a trend of a general lack of weasel room. Firmness is good and manly. Someone hammer plz.

[EvilTom]

We need MC Hammer!

@Tewi: Uh, this is beyond 'easy bandwagoning' now. I suggest you wake up.