Medaka Box Mafia - Night 4

[Serela]

It took me awhile to realize that these reads I want to sheep are coming from SkyPaladin.

It was kind of an "oh god why" moment.

[Sky_Paladin]

Re: Oarfish and chainsaw defence

Chainsaw defence is when you attack a player's argument against a player other than yourself, instead of making a case against that player.  It's a form of vote suppression, whereby you discourage players from voting without offering a better alternative yourself. 

You could probably say I countervoted Kingault.  I consider a countervote as a 'vote in response to another players vote'.  A countervote without some basis or argument is probably in the same category as an OMGUS, except it's a lot worse because the only reason somebody would want to protect another player is because they are in some kind of team.  I specifically voted Kingault for his bad vote and lack of reasoning for it.  If I had just voted King without saying anything after he voted CF7, then NNR's case would have some merit. 

[Serela]

The "discourage voting without offering better alternatives" isn't really part of it as far as I'm aware, but yeah, defending someone via attacking the person voting for them

IIRC the conclusion on chainsaw defense is that it's null until the person being defended actually flips scum

[Sky_Paladin]

I personally find it scummy because it's easy to dismantle another players argument.  It's harder to make a case against them.  People who take the easy way out are always scummier in my eyes.

[Sky_Paladin]

I'm kind of burned out because I've been doing this all day but I've got two more players I need to ISO.  Back shortly.

[Mr. Sacchi]

Hikari attacked me for my vote on King, and voted almost immediately.  I then shifted my vote off and Hikari shifted his vote off.  Actions speak louder than words.  I saw a chainsaw defend and a conditional countervote.  It looked very scummy and reinforced my view on King.

I shall, once again, point you to my #372.

I'm actually willing to vote Shadoweh, but I'm waiting for her next post before doing so. And the only reason I'm not voting Serela right now is because I'm waiting for this whole "ascetic test" thing to end.

[...]As for Shadoweh? Her next post did not satisfy me, so I voted for her, made a question, and then promptly fell asleep because there was no way I could be awake for the deadline.

[Shadoweh]

The adults I was waiting for posted 'bbl with posts' posts -_- Come on guysssss
I'm still kind of hung over soo etc im glad were at least agreigng on the fundamenetlas here.

[Mr. Sacchi]

Shadoweh, I just want to make sure on something, I won't question you why, but you said that "Skypal's VT claim doesn't mean automatic scum", does this mean you think he's towny, or that you simply find O4rfish scummier?

[Sky_Paladin]

ISO of SB. 

Self vote in RVS because misread his role pm.  What kind role could you misread in this way? 
//When NNR calls CF7 out for rolefishing...
...SB challenges NNR over it. 
Casual indirect defend of CF7.  Countervotes NNR because "I feel like he's trying too hard to look like he's contributing" and other details.  Seems legit except CF7 flipped scum. 
Continues to defend CF7 against Shadoweh and NNR.  "So basically you're saying you want people's posts to be bad because of X, not because of Y?"
//NNR actually sums up SB's pass here as "using the excuse he's inexperienced and a newbie."
SB argues. 
SB continues to defend CF7 from Shadoweh.  Possible scumslip.  Criticises my vote for Kingault but neglects to criticise Kingault's vote.  Strong evidence for CF7/SB/Kingault scum team. 
Blanket AOE defend of CF7. 
Questions several random players on their scum picks.  Has not yet made a reasonable case yet and we are a long way out of RVS.  Vote suppression on NNR. 
Serela bow down drama commencement.  Only snippy one liners from SB. 
Called out by NNR for doing nothing all game and vote parking.  SB agrees.  Says 'gonna speed iso some people i guess.'
Questions Serela for her ascetic test.  Questions my vote on Kingault again.  Questions Conqueror. 
Proposes turbo lynch of Sky near phase end because "Regardless I don't want CF7 lynched so."  Refusal to get on CF7 lynch. 
(Phase end). 
Challenged by NNR.  Blatant lie about what he did day 1, "My vote change basically made a Serela lynch impossible and sealed CF7's fate as the D1 lynch".  That is not what happened at all.  You sat on NNR all day for chasing CF7, then when that bus was gone, chased after me for pursuing Kingault, and took a brief shot at Serela when a window appeared. 
WIFOM.
Votes for Sky.  Picks BT's vote as weird and targets me for not voting CF7 until later which ironically is what SB never did on account of going for a turboskylynch. 
Unvotes to prevent quickhammer.  The first towny thing I've seen him do yet, except then fishes for permission to hammer. 
//(mod counterclaim)
Revotes Sky because mod counterclaim.  /Reasonable
Possible scumslip.  Indicates that he knows players have 3+ abilities, "how could you know...?"  Right back at you, SB. 
Unvotes because 'good point', which Dan challenges.  Debates quickhammer with self. 
Defends against Zak:  "It was worth looking for reactions."  Maybe so.  Buddying Zak. 
(end).

***

Overall assessment of SB is pretty awful.  There are no serious attempts to scum hunt and there are many one liner minimum effort posts.  Heavily defended CF7 day 1 including asking for a quicklynch of Sky late day 1 and all of day 2. 

The scum team of CF7/Kingault/SB not only fits nicely together but it actually explains a lot of their interactions.  SB has yet to refer to Oarfish in any meaningful way but he was keen to defend the King slot on day 1.  In addition, both Kingault and SB self-voted on day 1.  SB said he misread his role pm which is consistent with scum getting a link to a quicktopic and SB accidentally reading his scumbuddies role instead of his own.  And look at CF7's role, it's massive, you could easily make a mistake with that.  So yes, I am suggesting that King has a role where self-vote is OK and that SB thought it was his role and that is why he self-voted.  And also, you know, self votes are scummy and both King and SB did them. 

Overall presence has been lackluster and ineffective.  Did not vote for town.  Wants quicklynches.  Defended CF7 all of day 1. 

I'm pretty sure that's your scum team. 

Now I can die happy.  The last person I wanted to ISO was NNR but...I think we're done now. 

[NekoNekoRex]

About 'speculation';
I voted for Kingault because I saw him making a bad vote on an easy wagon.  CF7's alignment never factored into it because the idea is that scum make bad votes.  It could have been scum bussing a scumbuddy, scum making a vote park on a towny, or town just making a lazy vote.  CF7's flip actually doesn't remove any of those options, but 2/3 of those options are that King is scum.  And that is why we question bad votes, so that a towny has a chance to defend themselves, and a scum will ideally be caught.  You don't get to say people can't countervote bad votes because that completely ignores the world where scum can bus their buddies.  You even try to argue for some scenario where King and I are scumbuddies and I'm bussing him, yet you ignore that I'm saying that King could have been bussing CF7. 

Your case is "All swans are white, swans are birds, therefore all birds are white."  You want to make the argument that "All birds are black, swans are birds, therefore all swans are black."  You are back to front.  This point has been proven false. 

I have no clue what you are talking about, or what this has to do with your blithe avoidance of the dead scum player.

You don't know that CF7 would still be playing this phase if we had lynched King instead.  Both of them simply wilted and offered no credible defence at all.  There are more things in common with King and CF7 on day 1 than there are not.  I also had no way of knowing that King was going to stop playing.  I voted him early day 1.  He fell apart.  I got countervoted.  I switched my vote.  Hikari unvoted.  I revoted a player who wasn't doing anything. 

We had no way of knowing that King was about to quit.  I thought he was lurking.  Lurking players who make bad votes are scummy.  Do you disagree?

It's not about King switching out, it's about him effectively 'quitting' on D1 with his apathy mode.
You're ignoring the point where CF7 had scum intent, and King did not (or rather he just had no intent in the first place), which is the key reason that CF7 was more scummy and why the Kingault vote was just a bad vote.

Hikari attacked me for my vote on King, and voted almost immediately.  I then shifted my vote off and Hikari shifted his vote off.  Actions speak louder than words.  I saw a chainsaw defend and a conditional countervote.  It looked very scummy and reinforced my view on King. 

but that doesn't mean anything when his switch to Shadoweh was both already telegraphed and his vote on Shadoweh was perfectly reasonable, and had nothing to do with your vote switch.

Anyway, do you have any other scumpicks, or is tunneling me all you've got?  :/

Well, I'm still 200% convinced you're scum, sooooo... actually I kinda am. tbh I'd rather worry about other players once you're dead, but looks like I won't have that luxury, will I?

[Shadoweh]

Shadoweh, I just want to make sure on something, I won't question you why, but you said that "Skypal's VT claim doesn't mean automatic scum", does this mean you think he's towny, or that you simply find O4rfish scummier?

It didn't mean either of those. I do think Sky P is town on his own merits at this point. Suspicions of Oarfy are independant.

[Conqueror]

@Sacchi
Even without the VT claim shenanigans by this point Sky's pretty towny on account of...well he just did more work than half the players in the game. Just made me tired reading it.

@NNR
You realize the possibility at this point that he could have been town badly defending CF7, right?

@Shadoweh
I'm pretty tired right now but I think I'm still okay with an Oarfish slot lynch. Stuff like his "why" post reads somewhat like scum complaining that they don't think people are suspecting them fairly. I wasn't in VA2 and I haven't had the opportunity to read it yet, so was he like this as Spicer?

I believe that SkyPal is intentionally lying about his role. Dormio's posts are quite clear. I'm not exactly sure why this is causing everyone to abandon the SkyPal wagon. I suppose it's not unheard of for a town to gambit in such a way (cf. Schezo) but it just seems wrong.

SB is scum. SkyPal is playing badly, and defended CF7 somewhat, but ... I am not sure that he is scum.
##Unvote. Vote: SB

What made you switch to deciding Sky_Paladin was town lying about his role instead of scum lying about his role?

Why is Conq trying to explain the setup in terms of information to be given later when Dormio stated that the setup is not bastard, but rather that players' claims and/or actions are causing the mystery?

I'm giving you an example of a role in the previous game Dormio ran where a player had elements of their role they were not aware of, and this was not considered bastard.

[Mr. Sacchi]

@Sacchi
Even without the VT claim shenanigans by this point Sky's pretty towny on account of...well he just did more work than half the players in the game. Just made me tired reading it.

In case this was in response to the question I just made to Shadoweh, I only wanted to clarify her intentions, nothing else. The more Skypal posts the less scummy he seems to my eyes tbh.

[NekoNekoRex]

@NNR
You realize the possibility at this point that he could have been town badly defending CF7, right?

But what about all my other points, from his bad jump and park on Kingault to his utterly trash case on Sacchi? Hell, I still can't ignore his Actually Fake claim, there is just piles of evidence against him being town.


Annoyingly enough I'm inclined to agree with Sky's iso of SB, mostly because I missed the part about the Serela wagon thing being a falsehood. Except the part about quicklynching Sky, since everyone more or less wanted to ED2. I could gun for him if, god forbid, Sky actually flipped town.

[Conqueror]

Also Sky (and Zak I think) bringing up the RVS self-vote and CF7 dialog made me go and look back at it again.

Nah, I have every reason to selfvote.

Like misreading my own role pm.

Oh that happens. Do you get some special stuff for selfvoting?

So I guess it's plausible it was a genuine dialog between scumbuddies or a casual conversation. That just means I'll have to reread SB again.

Btw Zak, I read your BT case. It's interesting, but I dunno. I thought BT was mildly scummy D1 for a suspicion on Sacchi who I thought was obvtown etc, and generally disagreeing with his reads. But I found his later posts to be agreeable enough.

[Conqueror]

But what about all my other points, from his bad jump and park on Kingault to his utterly trash case on Sacchi? Hell, I still can't ignore his Actually Fake claim, there is just piles of evidence against him being town.

I agree the case on Sacchi was trash and at the time he made it I thought it was a super scummy deflection. :V But I've made terrible cases as town. The park was bad and lazy, yes, but I think Kingault has a good chance of being scum so I'm biased there.

[Conqueror]

Still can't figure out why CF7 didn't claim anything at the end of D1 since the plausible scumteams I'm running through my head would have at least told him to claim something. I feel like we'll be that much closer if we can think of a plausible reason for him to do that. Unless he just decided to give up on his team for no reason.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Votecount
O4rfish (4): Bardiche, Shadoweh, Sky Paladin, Sacchi Hikaru
Sky Paladin (1): NekoNekoRex
BT (1): Zakeri
Zakeri (1): ActionDan
SB (1): O4rfish
Conqueror (0):
Serela (0):
NekoNekoRex (0):
Shadoweh (0):
Sacchi Hikaru (0):
ActionDan (0):
Bardiche (0):

Not voting: Conqueror, BT, SB, Serela

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

You have ~29.5 hours remaining.

[O4rfish]

Skypal, why didn't you iso me?

[Sky_Paladin]

Ugh.  I didn't even think to do it because I thought evaluating BT/Dan/SB was a higher priority. 

I'm completely burned out after doing mafia pretty much all day.  I'll do it when I get back from kendo, it'll be about six to seven hours from now. 

[O4rfish]

Bard: there's really nothing here for me to respond to is there? Kingler never put real effort into the game so that makes me scum. I have a scummy attitude and I haven't posted anything worth considering. Is there a reason you sign up for Mafia besides malicious insults? How about trying to play the actual game instead of some poseur performance art.

Conq: a couple of misunderstandings I think.

I'm pretty tired right now but I think I'm still okay with an Oarfish slot lynch. Stuff like his "why" post reads somewhat like scum complaining that they don't think people are suspecting them fairly. I wasn't in VA2 and I haven't had the opportunity to read it yet, so was he like this as Spicer?

I wasn't Jack Spicer, that was Cheez. I was Snidely Whiplash. I would like to point out that BT was the only town out of my three early defenders in that game, and in this game he is one of extremely few defending Kingler (and I presume also me once he reads my amazing town posts).

I believe that SkyPal is intentionally lying about his role. Dormio's posts are quite clear. I'm not exactly sure why this is causing everyone to abandon the SkyPal wagon. I suppose it's not unheard of for a town to gambit in such a way (cf. Schezo) but it just seems wrong.
SB is scum. SkyPal is playing badly, and defended CF7 somewhat, but ... I am not sure that he is scum.
##Unvote. Vote: SB

(Conq)What made you switch to deciding Sky_Paladin was town lying about his role instead of scum lying about his role?

I didn't. I said I wasn't sure that he was scum.

I'm giving you an example of a role in the previous game Dormio ran where a player had elements of their role they were not aware of, and this was not considered bastard.

I see, I didn't know Dormio ran that game. What was the fallout after that revelation, and do you think the present Dormio would build something like what is being discussed, while posting the modposts he has?

[Mr. Sacchi]

Can we please, like, not try to guess the setup? Dormio himself said it should be done "at our own risk" and you know considering scum had an omnikiller on their back and the fact that roleshens caused an omnirole block for the duration of D2 and N2 I'm going to guess guessing the setup is going to prove futile, at best.

[Mr. Sacchi]

That was a response to this, btw.

[...]and do you think the present Dormio would build something like what is being discussed, while posting the modposts he has?

[O4rfish]

And THIS. THIS IS SO FUCKING BAD. "Hey guys, I replaced in for someone who was scummy but making a case on me based on his play is impolite". It's not impolite. Replacing in sucks if the player before you is scummy. Replacing in sucks even harder if your first few posts are pretty scummy too. That's what sucks about replacing; the benefit for Town is that if you're a Town player you can bring fresh insights to the table. Sadly, you haven't, I've seen nothing fresh from you.
It's even more impolite to make your statement after wildly shoving aside Sky Paladin's posts as "whine". Seriously, fuck you.

Here's my actual post.

Wow. How much wine do you expect us to drink, Skypal?
I also think it's kind of impolite to case me based on Kingler's apathetic play, seeing as how he was so apathetic he requested a replacement.
(and then some stuff on Shadoweh being coy and not actually claiming)

I think Bard and I simply disagree on whether Kingler was so scummy he had to replace out, or so apathetic he replaced out.
The other part of the post I wanted to address earlier but never got around to it. I didn't say "whine" at all. I said "wine" as in WIFOM. Here's Sky's post which prompted mine:

Alright. 
I want you to consider this.  I'm claiming vanilla town, right?  Everyone agrees that it's the worst claim to make in a power role game, right?  Don't you think I'd make a better claim?  Look at my fake claim in AUS mafia.  Look at my fake claim in Villains Anonymous.  Look at my TRUE claim in Utena mafia.  I said I was vanilla towny and got lynched anyway.  Why the hell would I say I was vanilla towny if I actually had a role?  At least if I was roled, and even scum roled, I could fake it and say some kind of cop or detective and buy out another phase or two. 
I said when I claimed that I was literally the best mislynch because there's no night phase and I'm vanilla so I don't have any useful abilities for town. 
If I die and flip and there's suddenly abilities there, then the mod added them retroactively (probably an explanation for why I got given this stacked deck alongside it) and I want you to strongly consider what it means for the rest of you if this game is actually bastard. 
I've got nothing left except scumhunting.  SO when I die town, please do as I asked.  Check Oarfish.  Check Hikari.  Check SB.

This post, especially the first part, coming from someone close to being lynched, seems pretty WIFOM to me.

[Shadoweh]

I see, I didn't know Dormio ran that game. What was the fallout after that revelation, and do you think the present Dormio would build something like what is being discussed, while posting the modposts he has?

I was a survivor for ten minutes before dying and we all had a good laugh at my expense.

fwiw I think you sound more hostile then Snidely. You also came into this game in a bad situation so I honestly can't say if that's scummy of you or not. I don't hate you, I wouldn't tease you in your half-mason QT if I did ^_^/

[Bardiche]

Bard: there's really nothing here for me to respond to is there? Kingler never put real effort into the game so that makes me scum. I have a scummy attitude and I haven't posted anything worth considering.

Kingler never put any effort and that makes the player slot scummy. You come in posting scummy stuff and make it a game of scummy + scummy. There is little in your posts that make me think otherwise, especially considering stuff like:

Is there a reason you sign up for Mafia besides malicious insults? How about trying to play the actual game instead of some poseur performance art.

"Malicious insults". Please define where I am "maliciously" insulting you? Isn't this just AtE of "oh no, Bard is bullying me"?

I can start with malicious insults if you'd like, because this is just petty. You replace into a slot that people accuse of being scum. Faced with this, the player opts to replace out. Okay, nothing you can do about that. Promptly, your first post starts off reasonably okay, though your fondness of the word "votepark" still implies you don't know what it means. However, the post after begs a question and lets us draw conclusions instead of giving arguments. You then make an observation. This isn't scumhunting. This is asking other people to do work. This is going all, "Hey guys, look at this! Anyway, brb, gotta do important things so draw your own conclusions."

Then you explain you aren't voting because you want the day to last longer and you say we need to look at more scum candidates. I fully agree. Sadly, your next game-content post is begging another question, and using some obscure logic you determine both Sky Paladin and Shadoweh are scum. What happened to "looking at more scum candidates"? Sadly, you just jump onto the popular bandwagon, line up the lynches, and some waffling that shows no homework you've done on "why I think Sky Pal is scum".

I mean, what the fuck do you expect me to even respond about this? Do you consider this "good Townie posting"? Because if so, then I must have missed the memo that "good Townie posting" these days constitutes jumping onto popular bandwagons with no submission of reasons and posting rhetoric for others to figure out. In your response to me you say 'we' didn't quicklynch Sky Paladin so you could call out scum teams. Else what was the point? The point was obviously that Sky Paladin is not scum and we need to consider alternatives, not assume Sky Paladin is scum and make cases based on that against other people. In that case a quicklynch would have worked better. This is bogus logic. Your little 'logic leap' afterwards assumes some flaws, like for example that there is no Town role that is similar to Vanilla. (Hint: There are plenty of Town roles like that.) It isn't even worth dignifying with a response since it's wrong.

The admission that you've only accused Sky Paladin and Shadoweh so far because you haven't read D1 interactions just further cements you were jumping on what's popular, because you didn't even refer to your reasons to think Sky Paladin is scum. It's like you literally came in thinking, "Well, Sky Paladin is scum", and then wanted to put some token Town effort to look at potential other scum. And by potential other scum I mean Sky Paladin's "scum buddies".

In this post you waffle on Sky Paladin when earlier you were sure enough of him scum that you started shipping Shadoweh and Sky Paladin as scum buddies.

Is that enough response to you "addressing the points"? Because I thought it was plainly obvious your posts don't cut it, but there you go.

Here's my actual post.I think Bard and I simply disagree on whether Kingler was so scummy he had to replace out, or so apathetic he replaced out.

You talk as if he was either scummy or apathetic. I posit he was both. The latter as a result of the former, and also as a result of CF7 getting wagoned quicker than Shadoweh downs booze.

The other part of the post I wanted to address earlier but never got around to it. I didn't say "whine" at all. I said "wine" as in WIFOM. Here's Sky's post which prompted mine:
This post, especially the first part, coming from someone close to being lynched, seems pretty WIFOM to me.

"Want some cheese with that wine?" I thought was it, but if you're saying it's WIFOM then that's pretty OK.



Regardless, tl;dr I think O4rfish is really scummy and see no compelling reason to move my vote off of him.

[WHMZakeri]

I kind of like Sky's readthrough of BT, even though he comes to pretty much the opposite conclusion I did. I've tried thinking of ways to argue against all of the points, but I can't think of a way to do that without just being contrarian.

I would like to point out that in addition to being the second most likely busser on CF7's wagon, There was the period where he was supposedly AFK but had enough time to participate in roleshens on day one.

I also find myself agreeing with a lot of the assessment on SB. A lot of the thoughts mirror my own, especially the lack of scumhunting, the one liners, and self-defense heavily using self-meta.

Bard and Oarfish are Waltzing with how much they're going in circles around each other. I think it's safe to say that Kingault's poor play is less than half the reason people are voting Oarfish so one of them should probably go ahead and drop that point.

I didn't. I said I wasn't sure that he was scum.

You did say that you were convinced he was Lying about his role. If you were convinced of this, and weren't sure he was scum, than it follows that you must have considered town-lying!Sky.

This is of course ignoring all the times people brought up evidence that strongly suggests Sky isn't lying to begin with.

[ActionDan]

How can scum stand to write all these walls

[ActionDan]

Who are you talking to zak in your last paragraph?

[Sky_Paladin]

Back.  Please wait warmly while ISOing.