Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ～ Double Dealing Character released!

[Sahgren]

So basically what I'm getting out of this is that ZUN reacted to TD being too easy and tried to make Lunatic DDC harder, but didn't balance it properly?

[nintendonut888]

I dunno Ammy, I'm with Zengeku on this one. Having played normal, hard, and lunatic, the small jump in what's required goes a long way towards increasing the difficulty level. Once you reach the point where dodges that would be a bit tricky even normally need to be performed with flipped controls, it's almost impossible to do without your normal reflexes kicking in. But the difference between normal and even hard is that on lunatic it is all but impossible to avoid the situations where these dodges are required, which, in my opinion, is the actual challenge behind the reversed control spell cards. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about it like everyone else, but they do have a point about the jump in lunatic being far higher than it is normally due to the way the spell cards are balanced.

Also, first hard 1cc, first try. Whoo! Didn't think I'd make it after dying 4 times on Benben and 3 on Seija. I continued the trend with only 2 deaths on Shinmyoumaru, and made it out 0/1.

So basically what I'm getting out of this is that ZUN reacted to TD being too easy and tried to make Lunatic DDC harder, but didn't balance it properly?

I wouldn't go that far. This lunatic is certainly harder than previous ones, but I wouldn't call it unbalanced. It's merely balanced for a higher level of skill than is usually required for Touhou. The only solution, obviously, is for us to get better along with it!

[Sage Ω (Ultima)]

Quick question. Do you guys consider Raiko the easiest Extra boss or Mokou?

Personally I see Raiko being miles harder than Mokou but the people I spoke with seems to think otherwise.

[Raikaria]

I can totally see Kogasa and the three newbies making a band. Singer Kogasa

Also, Raiko instantly ranks high in my favourite character list, for obvious reasons, as well as her style. Seriously, that's the sort of style I'd like. Except with shorts. Doesn't *quite* top 'give me Elly's hat', but it's close.

Wait a second.

Raiko has no headwear/accessory

WAAAAIT A SECOND [Warning, Raikaria Art inbound]



PERFECT. [That is supposed to be Elly's hat shuddup]

Also I was always under the impression Suwako was the easiest EXBoss. Mamizou is pretty easy too, even I can almost clear her, and her final spell is literally a complete joke. I can't get anywhere against Mokou.

[Tengukami]

it's almost impossible to do without your normal reflexes kicking in.

Yeah, we all have those reflexes, regardless of difficulty. The whole purpose of the flip is to force you to forget your reflexes.

I think that's where people are tripping up here. The only new variable, for any skill level, is whether or not you can teach yourself to mirror-image L and R or U and D for a few seconds. That's really it. Of course it takes time to learn, but hey, there's two types of practice to do that with. But I realize I'm spitting into the ocean here by pointing this out.

[Sage Ω (Ultima)]

I can totally see Kogasa and the three newbies making a band. Singer Kogasa

Also, Raiko instantly ranks high in my favourite character list, for obvious reasons, as well as her style. Seriously, that's the sort of style I'd like. Except with shorts. Doesn't *quite* top 'give me Elly's hat', but it's close.

Wait a second.

Raiko has no headwear/accessory

WAAAAIT A SECOND [Warning, Raikaria Art inbound]



PERFECT. [That is supposed to be Elly's hat shuddup]

Also I was always under the impression Suwako was the easiest EXBoss. Mamizou is pretty easy too, even I can almost clear her, and her final spell is literally a complete joke. I can't get anywhere against Mokou.

Stop ruining my Waifu!   I can't believe you think wako is easy.

On a side note, the patch now translates Spell cards. I wish it would give some kind of notification when it updates. Still no music room.

[commandercool]

Ha, cute. But let's consider the facts:

The patterns that players are up against in this bossfight are already matched to their level. This is the case for Easy, Normal, Hard and Lunatic. Is the mirroring effect necessarily harder for Lunatic players than anyone else? Well, the spellcards already match your skill level, and you already have the proper reflexes and pattern reading. So the only new variable in the mix is your ability to do the mental mirroring in your head for like, 3 or 4 seconds. But guess what else? There is Spell and Stage practice. They are there, and they can be used. Aren't you usually fond of telling others to practice more?

I think most of the griping about Stage 5 is because players are being required to play differently, in the middle of a boss fight, for a few seconds. I have no beef with people who have a personal distaste for the strategy. Different strokes and all that.

While I agree with you in theory, does that completely apply in practice in this case? I'm asking genuinely, because I've been doing the vertical flip spell all-horizontal on lower difficulties and haven't been having much trouble with it, but I don't know if on Hard and Lunatic it changes such that you have to do at least some vertical movement. The mechanics of the way the spell works on each difficulty might invalidate workarounds to a certain extent.

[Raikaria]

Stop ruining my Waifu!   I can't believe you think wako is easy.

On a side note, the patch now translates Spell cards. I wish it would give some kind of notification when it updates. Still no music room.

Ruining? Elly's Hat suits everything. It's like Guile's theme.

My art, on the other hand, does not.

And I can get further in Suwako than Mokou.

[commandercool]

I hadn't seen a picture of Raiko until now, but now that I have it's occurring to me that most, if not all, Touhous would look better with a tie. Do this for me, internet.

[Fumi]

Personally I think Suwako is the easiest Ex Boss like Mokou. I don't see any problems with their spells as they are pretty simple and basic even to dodge.
On the other side I think Raiko is not easy but she has her easy spells, I can say she is kind in the middle of al Ex Bosses, specially with her last two spells.

[Formless God]

There is only ONE attack where you actually have to deal with reversed controls.

If the game itself is the process of learning controls, then it has no value once you've achieved that.

That's kind of a slap in the face to rhythm and racing games.

[Tengukami]

While I agree with you in theory, does that completely apply in practice in this case? I'm asking genuinely, because I've been doing the vertical flip spell all-horizontal on lower difficulties and haven't been having much trouble with it, but I don't know if on Hard and Lunatic it changes such that you have to do at least some vertical movement. The mechanics of the way the spell works on each difficulty might invalidate workarounds to a certain extent.

Point well taken. I think here we see a difference between a game aspect in theory, and in practice, based largely on expectations. The horizontal and vertical flips are more reminiscent of a puzzle game, to me anyway; performing a geometric mental trick for your controls. But your mindset of gameplay is on a shmup, with its emphasis on reflex and muscle-memory movement. So those few seconds are pretty jarring, having to suddenly shift gears into a puzzle game mindset, and then back again. It's learnable, at least. But I get why tastes on the use of it are going to vary widely, too; I respect where people are coming from here.

[Kaze_Senshi]

Point well taken. I think here we see a difference between a game aspect in theory, and in practice, based largely on expectations. The horizontal and vertical flips are more reminiscent of a puzzle game, to me anyway; performing a geometric mental trick for your controls. But your mindset of gameplay is on a shmup, with its emphasis on reflex and muscle-memory movement. So those few seconds are pretty jarring, having to suddenly shift gears into a puzzle game mindset, and then back again. It's learnable, at least. But I get why tastes on the use of it are going to vary widely, too; I respect where people are coming from here.

One thing that I like in shmup games like Touhou is that it has a "puzzle feeling" in some patterns or spellcards like Yukari's last spellcard from PCB or Mokou's timeout spellcard on IN. It isn't just reflex, you have to think to solve problems or try it doing a trial-and-error. Now I remembered one old puzzle game that I loved in my childhood.

http://youtu.be/gAv6v4UdaBs?t=32m7s

It is a time-limit puzzle, you have to move yourself to the correct place before being crushed by the silver blocks. With this game as reference I always considered Touhou like games as a mix of puzzles and shrumps. This way I think that people are saying that "Seija is too hard" just because of the new game's hype, the Touhou-series always had this kind of challenges.

[Formless God]

But your mindset of gameplay is on a shmup, with its emphasis on reflex and muscle-memory movement.

The vertical flip uses reflex (no-vert) and the horizontal uses muscle memory (left-right mirroring). To me a puzzle is something you figure out once then kick its ass every time. The Stage 5 boss isn't like that.

On an unrelated note, this thing looks like it'd be fun to timeout

[Zork787]

well it's official, Touhou has FINALLY managed to drive me to self harm in frustration! after the 50th time of game overing to the extra stage from BULLSHIT I banged my head on my keyboard so hard I now have a big bleeding cut right in the middle of my forehead!

So yeah, I can safely say that DDC's Extra is now my least favourite in the series Hands Down! The stage is a clusterfuck that no matter how many times I retry I cant figure out half of it for the life of me, the midboss is plain bullshit and no matter how many times I practice the spell cards in teh spell card practice, I can NEVER capture them in the stage unless I am SUPER LUCKY! And I haven't even seen ALL of the spell card's either!

And while I haven't beaten SA's extra, mainly cos Koishi's spellcards still give me trouble, at least the Stage portion of SA's Extra is nice and simple, DDC's is just a clusterfuck.

[c l e a r]

The vertical flip uses reflex (no-vert) and the horizontal uses muscle memory (left-right mirroring). To me a puzzle is something you figure out once then kick its ass every time. The Stage 5 boss isn't like that.

On an unrelated note, this thing looks like it'd be fun to timeout

That DOES look like fun.  How fast are the daggers moving, same speed?  Is it even possible to weave through it at that point?

well it's official, Touhou has FINALLY managed to drive me to self harm in frustration! after the 50th time of game overing to the extra stage from BULLSHIT I banged my head on my keyboard so hard I now have a big bleeding cut right in the middle of my forehead!

So yeah, I can safely say that DDC's Extra is now my least favourite in the series Hands Down! The stage is a clusterfuck that no matter how many times I retry I cant figure out half of it for the life of me, the midboss is plain bullshit and no matter how many times I practice the spell cards in teh spell card practice, I can NEVER capture them in the stage unless I am SUPER LUCKY! And I haven't even seen ALL of the spell card's either!

And while I haven't beaten SA's extra, mainly cos Koishi's spellcards still give me trouble, at least the Stage portion of SA's Extra is nice and simple, DDC's is just a clusterfuck.

Post Mid-Boss, after the initial wave.  Stand still for the laser shots, you should be okay.  When the blue fairies come, run around the screen clockwise.  When the last wave of green fairies arrive, run counter-clockwise.

I do not like the midboss either, the bullets moving out and off screen coming back is really a big pain.

[Sage Ω (Ultima)]

well it's official, Touhou has FINALLY managed to drive me to self harm in frustration! after the 50th time of game overing to the extra stage from BULLSHIT I banged my head on my keyboard so hard I now have a big bleeding cut right in the middle of my forehead!

So yeah, I can safely say that DDC's Extra is now my least favourite in the series Hands Down! The stage is a clusterfuck that no matter how many times I retry I cant figure out half of it for the life of me, the midboss is plain bullshit and no matter how many times I practice the spell cards in teh spell card practice, I can NEVER capture them in the stage unless I am SUPER LUCKY! And I haven't even seen ALL of the spell card's either!

And while I haven't beaten SA's extra, mainly cos Koishi's spellcards still give me trouble, at least the Stage portion of SA's Extra is nice and simple, DDC's is just a clusterfuck.

The only thing I find difficult about the stage portion is getting life pieces and the mid-boss. Raiko herself isn't exactly hard. I've been hearing about how easy she is ever since the game released. The stage portion is probably the most simple of all of them, with 10D and MOF and SA following.

EDIT: I won't lie, the mid-boss are over-powered, even in the main game. They're more annoying than anyone before them.

[Formless God]

Daggers move at the same speed. There are still plenty enough space to weave through, but you probably have to stay in the walls longer than usual.

The music notes bouncing off the screen border are nearly static. Just remember where you dodged the first wave.

[Mordon]

Raiko isn't easy, but if you get enough resources in the stage you can bomb everything and finish with enough to spare. The mid bosses are hard, specially the last card, but you don't have to capture their spellcards to beat the extra.

People have different concepts of "easy" and "hard". To me, if you can't capture anything but you can bomb everything and beat the extra everytime, then it's very easy. That's Mokou's and Raiko's cases for me, because you have more resources than you need to beat them, even if you still get destroyed by her attacks. Now try capturing all spellcards, and Mokou will probaly be one of the hardest.

[nintendonut888]

So, any word on a vsync patch? I did some fiddling with my video card, but I'm still getting some lag that makes it so Lame-u doesn't stop on a dime.

[Zork787]

Prolly shoulda mentioned that I'm using Marisa B and as long as her disk is on screen, Raiko will remain invincible even though your invincibility ends long before the disk goes away so it always ends up doing more harm than good usually, and here's a link to a replay of one of my extra attempts so you guys can see for yourself what I'm doing wrong, and the part where you have lazers coming from both sides of the screen I bomb there intentionally for the resource and because I can sit in the disk completely safe from the lazers. http://www.mediafire.com/?9e6f7mgu3fxd9wv

[N-Forza]

I doubt Touhou translators have the dedication for something 100x longer.

Trust me, if I didn't have a job, this would be done in a day or two.

[commandercool]

Point well taken. I think here we see a difference between a game aspect in theory, and in practice, based largely on expectations. The horizontal and vertical flips are more reminiscent of a puzzle game, to me anyway; performing a geometric mental trick for your controls. But your mindset of gameplay is on a shmup, with its emphasis on reflex and muscle-memory movement. So those few seconds are pretty jarring, having to suddenly shift gears into a puzzle game mindset, and then back again. It's learnable, at least. But I get why tastes on the use of it are going to vary widely, too; I respect where people are coming from here.

Touhou is basically always a puzzle game, as far as I know. Maybe that's way I'm super terrible at it. :derp:

[MewMewHeart]

Touhou is basically always a puzzle game, as far as I know. Maybe that's way I'm super terrible at it. :derp:

I'm guilty as well for being terrible at it.  :ohdear:

[cuc]

This hasn't been posted in this thread, right? YUKE, author of the "I don't want my Touhou to be like this!" videos (Touhou All Stars Medley, Unreasonable Mechanism, etc) plays DDC for the first time, and tastes his own poison.

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm21581793
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm21581908

[Clarste]

Regarding the auto-patcher thing, I think a lot of people are missing the point. It's not supposed to be a hard patch. It's supposed to be a way to check the wiki in-game. That's literally what it is. If there weren't technical formatting reasons along with some drama I'm sure it would be linked to the touhouwiki directly. It uses the exact same philosophy. Quite frankly, a lot of the patches have bad translations and because they're not subject to constant review they'll never get fixed, ever. That's not an insult to the translators, it's just a fact of life. When people want an actual translation they'll just check the wiki or compare it to the Japanese or something. This is the value of the touhouwiki, and it's also the value of the auto-patcher thing. No more and no less.

Speed is the proof of concept, but the real value is the fact that it's editable. If you don't appreciate that value, then don't use it, but personally I don't trust any one of us enough to create a perfect translation in one go.

[Sage Ω (Ultima)]

Get on my level.

[Zengeku]

and here's a link to a replay of one of my extra attempts so you guys can see for yourself what I'm doing wrong

Alright, I took a look at it. First off, I'll have to direct you to someone who actually knows how to play MarisaB and ask that you follow similar strats maybe? Try this:
http://puu.sh/425Tx

Other things that I could really notice is that sometimes you just stop moving and allow things to hit you. This is not a very solid strategy. Try to move out of the way next time. Honestly, this entire situation reeks of someone who needs a bit of L2P. Your dodging is not very good, your resource management is worse and you definitely don't show any signs of actually having practiced this stuff.

Furthermore, I'm almost offended that you consider anything within this stage bullshit because you obviously have no idea what bullshit is. You need to stop complaining about not being able to handle totally legitimate bullet patterns and instead take your time improving your skills so that you may dodge these things more consistently. I'll say it again, there's no bullshit to be found in this stage. Most players I know and talk to on a regular basis think most of it is easy.

tl;dr? Play more.

Also, why are you playing with MarisaB if you really think she's such a burden? Get ReimuA or SakuyaA on the case if you're really having so much trouble with a bomb that's more harm than it's good, as ridiculous as that sounds.

EDIT: added link

[Nyyl]

Regarding the auto-patcher thing, I think a lot of people are missing the point. It's not supposed to be a hard patch. It's supposed to be a way to check the wiki in-game. That's literally what it is. If there weren't technical formatting reasons along with some drama I'm sure it would be linked to the touhouwiki directly. It uses the exact same philosophy. Quite frankly, a lot of the patches have bad translations and because they're not subject to constant review they'll never get fixed, ever. That's not an insult to the translators, it's just a fact of life. When people want an actual translation they'll just check the wiki or compare it to the Japanese or something. This is the value of the touhouwiki, and it's also the value of the auto-patcher thing. No more and no less.

Speed is the proof of concept, but the real value is the fact that it's editable. If you don't appreciate that value, then don't use it, but personally I don't trust any one of us enough to create a perfect translation in one go.

I think a big issue people seem to have with it is one or more certain, ah, unsavory characters behind it. It's not an issue for me, since a useful tool is a useful tool, but I'm not gonna try to convince others to feel the same way, since I don't blame them

[Tengukami]

Quite frankly, a lot of the patches have bad translations and because they're not subject to constant review they'll never get fixed, ever. That's not an insult to the translators, it's just a fact of life. When people want an actual translation they'll just check the wiki or compare it to the Japanese or something.

There are "actual translations" in the English patches. I can't think of any examples of translations in game patches that were significantly off enough to warrant a "fix". Of course, if people want rolling updates right off the Wiki, that's fine in and of itself, but:

Speed is the proof of concept, but the real value is the fact that it's editable. If you don't appreciate that value, then don't use it, but personally I don't trust any one of us enough to create a perfect translation in one go.

Oh, don't worry, I have no intention of using this patch, but I'm also going to say why I think it might be a bad idea for others to install an unfinished patch from a supposedly shady source that's got a bunch of .js files in it. And I'm not sure if you were around for the creation of previous hard patches, but they aren't banged out in one go. They take time to make.