Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ～ Double Dealing Character released!

[Tengukami]

That english patch isn't the full one. It's the one from the demo and it crashes on any boss but the stages 1-3 bosses.

So, in other words, it's useless.

[Frog]

That english patch isn't the full one. It's the one from the demo and it crashes on any boss but the stages 1-3 bosses.

They've fixed that, I've been using it and it supports at least up to stage 5 with no crashes and dialogue translated.

[Sage Ω (Ultima)]

Oh ok, the spell cards aren't done but atleast I have most of the story. That crash might've been DDC's fault because it didn't happen a second time. It seems to have updated the difficulty menu, and it supports all stages including extra. Spell cards only go up to stage 3 and doesn't show translated in spell practice, that's odd since spell practice in IN updated to whatever it is in game. So if you take a score.dat from an english save, spell practice would show up in english but it reverts if you play it.

[Tengukami]

I guess the main question on my mind about this patch is this:

If stuff isn't completely translated and/or patched, why release a patch prematurely? I mean, great that they've patched the parts they have and all, but why would I install a patch that only patches part of the game, with "updates pending" via a series of .js and .dll files?

How about - oh I dunno - releasing a patch when the whole game is, in fact, actually patched? Just throwin' that out there.

[nintendonut888]

I dunno about the quality of the patch itself, but from what I hear the man behind it is very sketchy. Like, Icycalm sketchy. I'm honestly not sure I'd trust a patch in the hands of someone like that. I think I'll just wait on a normal, orthodox patch.

Plus, I'm not sure you should be using a patch when its usefulness is stated in terms of "it goes up to ____ without crashing."

[Necrotek]

How about - oh I dunno - releasing a patch when the whole game is, in fact, actually patched? Just throwin' that out there.

Because this kind of translation allows anyone who is good in Japanese to take part in it. For example, if you know Japanese and at some point "I think it's better to translate this way" and write your version. Next guy who will see it during playing can improve it too e.t.c. Something like this.

[Tengukami]

Likewise, 'Nut. Having the patch connected to who knows who in order to get said updates is sketchy as hell.

Vectorfish: that sounds like a clusterfuck. That stuff should be sorted pre-release, like it always has been. A good patch takes time.

[Necrotek]

I didn't check it myself but I heard that some of translations of previous touhou games which are done using this mechanics are significantly better than old hardmode-patching ones which no one will ever update again. So actually this kind of translation has its advantages.

[nintendonut888]

Because this kind of translation allows anyone who is good in Japanese to take part in it. For example, if you know Japanese and at some point "I think it's better to translate this way" and write your version. Next guy who will see it during playing can improve it too e.t.c. Something like this.

So the fanbase owns the means of production for the patch, with no qualified expert set to lead the project? Sounds vaguely familiar...

[Gradius2002]

Is it just me or is stage 5 really harder to pass than stage 6...? I thought I will never have to face inverted spell cards again... and then it appears in TH14... * has to find out the technique passing them *

The extra stage... I actually laughed during the time-out card when I heard the melody being played out by those bullets... -.- ...

Overall... Average level of difficulty * except inverted spell cards * ...  and also that stage 6 boss time-out card which enlarge your character hitbox... I can say I'm so not used to having such a huge hitbox lolz... To me that's quite an original idea...

Love Stage 6 themes very much... addictive...

Good music + new style of spell cards = Love...

[Sage Ω (Ultima)]

I guess the main question on my mind about this patch is this:

If stuff isn't completely translated and/or patched, why release a patch prematurely? I mean, great that they've patched the parts they have and all, but why would I install a patch that only patches part of the game, with "updates pending" via a series of .js and .dll files?

How about - oh I dunno - releasing a patch when the whole game is, in fact, actually patched? Just throwin' that out there.

I don't like the style either tbh. But atleast we can understand what the game is about.  I've learned to settle for whatever translation patch I can get being a man who plays JRPGs. Those games are time consuming and not to many people make patches or even finish them due to being a tedious task.

If this was FF-Type 0 you'd be holding on to any patch or even a text walkthrough. You can even play that game if you don't speak jap unless you like video walkthroughs.

[Zil]

I dislike the idea of the stage 5 boss. Mainly that's because when you look past the gimmick, her spells are absurdly easy for a stage 5 boss. Obviously, they're toned down to make up for the fact that you can't control yourself as well during them, and I don't like that. From the player's standpoint, your ideal course of action is to simply get used to the different controls until you reach the point where you're at no disadvantage from it, but then the spells aren't going to be any different. They'll still be absurdly easy. She's a boss who gets all of her difficulty from hindering your ability to actually control the character, and once you've learned to cope with that, she has nothing. I think I might find her fun until the novelty wore off, and then she'd be either annoying or boring, depending on how well I've adapted to the controls. It's a sacrifice of gameplay in exchange for short term shock value. And that's extremely disappointing. I would go so far as to say it's one of the worst decisions ZUN has ever made in one of these games.

At least the boss herself is really hot.

-

That patch has sounded dubious to me from the get go. Can't you just check the wiki for translations?

[Zengeku]

At least the boss herself is really hot.

So in the end, all is well and fair in wonderland.

[Necrotek]

I dislike the idea of the stage 5 boss. Mainly that's because when you look past the gimmick, her spells are absurdly easy for a stage 5 boss. Obviously, they're toned down to make up for the fact that you can't control yourself as well during them, and I don't like that. From the players standpoint, your ideal course of action is to simply get used to the different controls until you reach the point where you're at no disadvantage from it, but then the spells aren't going to be any different. They'll still be absurdly easy.

I don't know how well other players can adapt to reversing but I have a lot of problems with it. Actually, I have more problems after that when I find it to be difficult to control my character using proper non-reversed controls. Part of my brain uses controls properly but at the same time the other part of it still tries to "fix" it for reverse orientation which results in chaotic movement and I can't avoid properly even obvious threats. I feel that I'd have to take breaks after this boss before starting next stage when I'll be doing my 1cc Normal.

[Zil]

So in the end, all is well and fair in wonderland.

For anyone who doesn't care about gaining some kind of consistency against her, sure. Fortunately that group includes me, but my heart goes out to all the players who lose their high scores because they accidentally fell back on the reflexes which they've been honing for years and years.

[Sage Ω (Ultima)]

I dislike the idea of the stage 5 boss. Mainly that's because when you look past the gimmick, her spells are absurdly easy for a stage 5 boss. Obviously, they're toned down to make up for the fact that you can't control yourself as well during them, and I don't like that. From the player's standpoint, your ideal course of action is to simply get used to the different controls until you reach the point where you're at no disadvantage from it, but then the spells aren't going to be any different. They'll still be absurdly easy. She's a boss who gets all of her difficulty from hindering your ability to actually control the character, and once you've learned to cope with that, she has nothing. I think I might find her fun until the novelty wore off, and then she'd be either annoying or boring, depending on how well I've adapted to the controls. It's a sacrifice of gameplay in exchange for short term shock value. And that's extremely disappointing. I would go so far as to say it's one of the worst decisions ZUN has ever made in one of these games.

You pretty much described that, the whole point of the spells being easy is for the gimmick. I like ZUN switching things up, we need something fresh in Touhou. Reverse controls isn't something everyone can get used to. So the spells are simplified in order to be fair to the player rather than add more unnecessary difficulty.

Personally I'd like to see more bosses use gimmicks and more unique attacks. We don't have that very often in the series. Sakuya, Reisen, Orin, Alice, and Medicine is all we got.

[Tengukami]

You use the same parts of your brain for the controls; you have to flip your visualization. I like it. It plays with the player's sense of perspective. It brings the 'reverse castle' to life. I think it's great he's taken this creative approach. YMMV.

[CyberAngel]

I didn't check it myself but I heard that some of translations of previous touhou games which are done using this mechanics are significantly better than old hardmode-patching ones which no one will ever update again. So actually this kind of translation has its advantages.

Better? More accurate maybe, but it's still a topic of hot debate whether it's better to stick to literal translation or to take some liberties like they did. It's still static patch for me, better or worse.

I've learned to settle for whatever translation patch I can get being a man who plays JRPGs. Those games are time consuming and not to many people make patches or even finish them due to being a tedious task.

Touhou fandom can do much better than that, don't you agree? Even HM patch will be done eventually.

[OtakuGray]

I can't wait for the Minish Cap parodies with Sasuga's Hammer...This is turning out to be my favorite game in the series since SA.

Dat flipping mechanic though...just wow. I wonder how long ZUN was hiding that gimmick up his sleeve...just waiting for that one boss to use it with  :V

[Sage Ω (Ultima)]

Touhou fandom can do much better than that, don't you agree? Even HM patch will be done eventually.

I agree, this patch isn't much, but it's close enough until a better comes, so it's a take it or leave it situation.  You also have to remember that Touhou isn't a long game in terms of dialog. If the people who work on JRPGs did a Touhou translation, it would be done within a day and accuracy checked the next day. I doubt Touhou translators have the dedication for something 100x longer.

[Zil]

So the spells are simplified in order to be fair to the player rather than add more unnecessary difficulty.

That doesn't make it fair. If changing the controls where unfair to begin with, making the attack easier in compensation wouldn't make that any different. It would still be unfair, just a bit easier. Difficulty and fairness are separate things. It's like making an extremely easy game and then requiring that anyone who plays learn to juggle first. There is absolutely no connection between her gimmick and the nature of her spell cards. e: the structure of the patterns I mean.

It may be cool and fitting with the story, but from a gameplay perspective I think it's terrible.

[Tengukami]

You think switching Left and Right or Up and Down for a few seconds is like learning to juggle? Clearly you never tried to juggle!

[touhoumaniac]

Contents of reverse.ahk autohotkey script  :V
b::Left
c::Right
f::Up
v::Down

r::Left
y::Right
t::Up
5::Down

This tactic was mentioned by someone in one of the th14 threads. This cheat is undetectable  :3

[Zil]

You think switching Left and Right or Up and Down for a few seconds is like learning to juggle? Clearly you never tried to juggle.

It's similar in that it's something you can't work your way through strategically, or even by relying on past experience. You have to sew it into your muscle memory from scratch. If you want to play as well against Seija's spells as you would against something normal, there's nothing you can do but work the controls into your brain. And not merely that, but you have to be able to shift into the different effects right in the middle of a run, without warming up or anything, and without accidentally reverting back to the habits you've developed for everything else in the past. It's a bizarre ability that you're not going to be good at naturally, so you have to spend a significant amount of time practicing it specifically.

But in any case that's beside the point. I'm not saying it's unfair, or too hard to learn. It's perfectly doable with enough practice. My problem with it is that it's totally detached from the gameplay itself. Your ideal reaction to it is to reach a point where it's existence is completely irrelevant, and you have nothing left but an overly simple boss battle. The "technique" you've learned is merely to manipulate the controls, and I don't see the fun in that. Learning a game's controls is an aspect of practically every game in existence, and there's probably some fun in it, but that's just a precursor to actually playing the game. If the game itself is the process of learning controls, then it has no value once you've achieved that.

That's my opinion on it anyway. I'll acknowledge that the perspective I'm looking at it from is probably not the most common. Some, if not most, people can probably just enjoy being bamboozled by it every time, but for anyone who wants to reach a point where they can say "I can almost definitely capture those spells in a full run" I think it would be tormenting.

[pasu]

Regarding Seijia's easy spellcards once you get over the gimmicks - she did say she(they?) was weak  :V

[wailofthebanshee]

From the player's standpoint, your ideal course of action is to simply get used to it, but then the spells aren't going to be any different.

So it's the same as any other spell card?

[redlakitu]

So it's the same as any other spell card?

The average Stage 5 spell card is still threatening even after you get used to it, though.

[Jaimers]

This cheat is undetectable  :3

I somehow doubt that.

[Zengeku]

Zil, I agree with your posts entirely. The earlier was of course just a joke since I'm very much in the camp of people who's concerned with how this will affect my consistency. For Ammy I'll say that I see your point and it's a decent point from a non-gameplay perspective but you probably just don't understand because you don't play on Lunatic mode and yes, I don't like to pull that card on you but in this case it's relevant. On lower difficulty modes the patterns are much less complicated so swapping the controls doesn't hurt so much but on Lunatic where the RNG can sometimes generate waves that require more complicated movement maneuvers, it get's considerably more troublesome, annoying and capable of messing up high scores because of the player for just a split second accidentally relying on their - in some players case - over a decade old muscle memory.

I somehow doubt that.

I have been considering that option too but I decided against it. However, how would you go about proving that it isn't just a player who has gotten very good at handling the swapped controls? Silly as it may sound?

[Tengukami]

For Ammy I'll say that I see your point and it's a decent point from a non-gameplay perspective but you probably just don't understand because you don't play on Lunatic mode and -

Ha, cute. But let's consider the facts:

The patterns that players are up against in this bossfight are already matched to their level. This is the case for Easy, Normal, Hard and Lunatic. Is the mirroring effect necessarily harder for Lunatic players than anyone else? Well, the spellcards already match your skill level, and you already have the proper reflexes and pattern reading. So the only new variable in the mix is your ability to do the mental mirroring in your head for like, 3 or 4 seconds. But guess what else? There is Spell and Stage practice. They are there, and they can be used. Aren't you usually fond of telling others to practice more?

I think most of the griping about Stage 5 is because players are being required to play differently, in the middle of a boss fight, for a few seconds. I have no beef with people who have a personal distaste for the strategy. Different strokes and all that.