Author Topic: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)  (Read 109932 times)

Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #360 on: April 08, 2011, 07:56:02 PM »
Who's Rebecca Black?  :wat:
A fish without gills.

Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #361 on: April 08, 2011, 08:09:45 PM »
The 'fried egg' girl.

Whatthe

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Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #362 on: April 08, 2011, 08:46:32 PM »
The 'fried egg' girl.
Is she a counterpart to the 'boiled egg' girl? Who is the 'scrambled egg' girl?

Letty Whiterock

Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #363 on: April 08, 2011, 09:11:48 PM »
Who's Rebecca Black?  :wat:
Get some culture.

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Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #365 on: April 09, 2011, 12:15:10 AM »
I have no idea who Rebecca Black is.

I do know, however, who "Awkward dancing blonde girl" is.

RegalStar

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Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #366 on: April 09, 2011, 12:42:30 AM »
Eventually with UFOs, I just got so tired of dying repeatedly while trying to collect tokens that I decided "screw it. I'm just going to go no UFO".

Funnily enough, I find that I get much, much further with extra on average with that mentality in mind. Problem is I then go in Nue with very little resources. Well, she's easier than most other extra bosses anyways.

Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #367 on: April 09, 2011, 05:48:34 AM »
The best part of this "optimal UFO route" thing is that you'll probably never be able to pull it off. UFO is not about finding the most optimal UFO route, memorizing it and then grinding it until you get it. You approach a UFO 1cc like you would any other shmup, collect things as they appear, go for lives when you can, but if you miss one no biggy -- you'll be able to recover it later. Just remember that collecting reds is good. Memorizing and executing an "optimal" route only invites frustration as you attempt to perfect it every time. I strongly advise a more relaxed approach to the UFO system, just collect reds and greens when you can. If you "mess up" and spawn a rainbow, that's fine, it'll cancel bullets, convert points to power and provide an extra ufo token to help you towards the next UFO you want to spawn. If you somehow spawn a blue (which, if you're going for survival, can only mean you screwed up at least twice in a row), then that's fine too, you'll have a less embarassing score when you finish the game :V

Scoring is about sacrificing more reds in exchange for rainbows or blues at a rate that you can handle. If you went and memorized the WR scoring route (there is more than one, by the way) you'd quickly get pissed off and quit, since へかて sacrifices 9 spare lives just by not collecting any reds, and he also suicides off the rest of them for graze, leaving him with no resources and absolutely no room for screw ups anywhere. Good luck with those routes.

my approach is usually to try to not acquire bad habits, so I won't have to worry about fixing them later, and worry about the time spent trying to unlearn what I got from experimenting and learn how other people play, when you can do the latter first. Even if I'm no superplayer, I can't ignore the missing scoring potential from not raising point item value.. I don't know how much, but I know the lost potential exists and hurts you through the game. (for comparison, breaking a medal chain in Garegga/Batrider isn't such an unrecoverable mistake which will hurt you through the game like not having a high point item value or graze count do -- though when it's done on a section with lots of medals at once, then it's demotivating)

Though things aren't as simple (it seems) as just getting rainbow UFOs and collecting other UFO tokens while an UFO is on the screen, which is why I complain, but I agree that your suggestion is viable, since if your life stock becomes dangerously low, you can choose to play defensively, at least until you can have more resources or find situations with low risk and high reward. Maybe I'm angry that sometimes, people who avoid risks which I choose to take still get better rewards, not rarely due to having better memorization for doing stages more safely and at the same time scoring more. (I mean, games rewarding memorization and not having balanced enough risk/reward)

This only applies for scoring since using UFOs to cancel bullets is almost always more trouble than it's worth. Scoring always involves memorization in any shmup (though for some it's more necessary than others), so I don't really know what the point of this is.

what you said in parentheses, (though for some it's more necessary than others), help me try to explain that sometimes, games reward greatly one player over the other with a single criteria, with no or little in between (one example being Ikaruga; if you don't know what enemies will come and how to chain them, you'll have a considerable gap compared to one who does). On the other hand, Batrider has a lot of possible optimizations, but it's also intermediate player-friendly (for example, at one point you'll choose to just chain the medals, before learning that there's more things to do on the game -- fortunately, there's not so much emphasis on aura usage or else I'd dislike the gameplay). Also, on topic of memorization versus freestyling, think, for example, about falling medals on Garegga and Batrider, too. You don't "memorize" how you're going to pick them, you find a way, and there are a lot of possibilities for paths and enemy bullet paths and medal trajectory. Same thing with Dangun Feveron. Opposite of... Mars Matrix :V

What memorization has to do with Touhou shmups? (most of the main ones)
If you don't know which attacks are going to come, you don't graze them as well. (and I particularly have problems with grazing, I think I've said once how grazing in Shuusou Gyoku felt more flexible and felt more rewarding, as in the risk stays the same, but the graze chaining adds reward so if you mess up the grazing, you do it knowing that it was worth it)



Here's hoping for something similar to the UFO system in TD, where you can slowly trade off lives for score as you get better at the game. I'm not too concerned with how ZUN achieves this effect (hopefully not by suiciding), just as long as it's present and allows room for active improvisation.

mine are, so far:
- optional, additional, triggerable bosses (yes I liked that stuff in Batrider)
- hidden guest playables (yes I liked that stuff in Batrider and Garegga and Dimahoo too)
- intermediate scoring (in addition to basic and advanced, of course), it helps avoid having players restart or stop playing mid-game
- balanced risk/reward
- no punishing those who can't memorize well (but as long as there's grazing, it will be really difficult for this to happen)
- some sort of help for bullet or enemy character hitboxes (gradually changing color of nearby bullets, for example, would help, since the sound effects don't help much if you need to plan a route or is dodging while grazing more than one bullet), if you ever have to hug bosses for graze
- no point-blank grazing or invulnerability grazing (in Varth, there's invulnerability point-blanking, which is fun. But point-blank grazing or pixel-perfect grazing is not fun :( )
- more scoreplay styles than grazing (MoF/PoFV, for example, though PoFV on a whole-number game would be lol)

This main point right here does not get emphasized enough. Too many times I see people raging about UFO because they have divined some purpose from the game that simply isn't there, and then get angry when they can't complete this purpose. It's like saying, "If Rebecca Black is supposed to be a fish, how come she doesn't have any gills?"

Scoring, though, is a purpose which is in the games. I just happen to not like how it's done in any game where I have to memorize things and keep such information (data, not gameplay systems -- compare, for example, to having to memorize historical events' dates vs. understanding why a program code won't work by understanding what the programmer wanted to achieve) in mind while playing. (doesn't mean that I mean that there's only one way to enjoy the same game, but the way most other people enjoy games, I don't, and vice-versa)
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #368 on: April 09, 2011, 08:10:53 AM »
Who's Rebecca Black?  :wat:

It doesn't matter. She's a human being and doesn't have gills (Google is your friend, by the way). The point is people think there's some purpose to UFO that isn't there, and then they rage when they can't fulfill this purpose. Case in point:

Scoring, though, is a purpose which is in the games. I just happen to not like how it's done in any game where I have to memorize things and bla bla bla

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You don't have to memorize runs in UFO. If you're fixated on getting the highest possible score you can, though, then yes, you're going to have to memorize the route that gives you the highest score. What is complicated about this? It's like complaining that competing in the long jump involves having to run really fast.

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Kips McKipzerson

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Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #369 on: April 09, 2011, 10:27:03 AM »
Well, That's not exactly the example I would personally use. Still though, Score doesnt really matter. I mean, come on, Who plays Mario trying to max out the score?

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #370 on: April 09, 2011, 01:20:51 PM »
Well, That's not exactly the example I would personally use.

It's not complicated. If you're going for the highest possible score, then you're going to have to memorize a route to do it. Complaining about it makes as much sense as complaining about having to run really fast in order to do the long jump.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Reddyne

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Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #371 on: April 09, 2011, 02:12:55 PM »
As for scoring, yeah, UFO made things a bit too convoluted for my taste. In pretty much any of the other games, giving your score a good boost can come down to using autocollect to rack up as many point icons as possible while capturing more spell cards. Between darting out into a no-man's-land to pick up UFO's and missing plenty of autocollect opportunities for the same reason, I haven't once yet bothered to pick up a blue UFO or even tried to give my score a boost in the first place. Pretty much every game rewarded taking risks in order to boost your score before UFO. Most of the time, the more points or point icons you got, the higher your score got. SA rewarded simply staying alive with things like grazing for autocollect and partial 1-up drops for surviving spell cards. In UFO, you aim for a higher score simply because you want a higher score.
Who's Rebecca Black?  :wat:
Get some culture.
Um, wouldn't these two things contradict one another?

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Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #372 on: April 09, 2011, 06:44:06 PM »
The UFO system sucks. That is all.  :V
"I'm not sure about this anymore...Are you sure this is safe?"

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Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #373 on: April 09, 2011, 08:37:59 PM »
It's not complicated. If you're going for the highest possible score, then you're going to have to memorize a route to do it. Complaining about it makes as much sense as complaining about having to run really fast in order to do the long jump.

Personally I don't like to memorize (and misremember) stages, and grazing greatly encourages memorization (but not limited to). There are more virtues to be exercised (and rewarded, in a scoring pov) than memorization, so it's not like all shmups' memorization demands are the same (see Ikaruga, Dimahoo and Mars Matrix for some memorization-intensive shmups, or Dodonpachi's chaining -- I have yet to play Guwange, which has a game-long chaining).

Well, That's not exactly the example I would personally use. Still though, Score doesnt really matter. I mean, come on, Who plays Mario trying to max out the score?

Mario wasn't designed with scoring in mind, and with patience it's counterstoppable. (even then, there are some records for people playing games which weren't supposed to be played for score, like Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo)

But comparing Mario to shmups like Touhou or Cave/Raizing/etc. is... like comparing apples to oranges imo. Scoring on the latter is part of the gameplay (often overlooked by most people), and helps differentiate one shmup from another.
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

ふとくていなねこじょおう

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Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #374 on: April 10, 2011, 10:57:00 PM »
Also, for the next shmup, we need another playable EX-boss.

Nue plz.  :3
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Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #375 on: April 11, 2011, 12:37:05 AM »
Personally I don't have any problems with UFOs, other than "oh no i tried to fly into the danmaku for a ufo and died", but can't you really make that complaint about most collectables in shmups? UFO is pretty much the only game in which I can max out my lives by the end of stage 4 thanks to UFOs. And if you don't need the lives, you can trade them in for bombs or a gazillion points. It's a pretty well-balanced system.

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Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #376 on: April 11, 2011, 12:48:13 AM »
Yeah, once you get used to when you should and shouldn't go for a ufo, you'll be gaining lives/score/what-have-you faster than you'll lose lives or bombs. It's usually off putting at first is all.
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Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #377 on: April 15, 2011, 03:22:35 PM »
Go get it: http://www16.big.or.jp/~zun/html/th13dl.html

Disc version will be sold through Melonbooks it seems.

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Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #378 on: April 15, 2011, 03:33:34 PM »
Japan Internet choked and died the moment ZUN released this...

Then they say PC games don't have this or that, blah blah blah  :V

I got a slot and I'm downloading at a nice 15 kb/s. It's like I'm back to 2003 on my old 56k modem!

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Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #379 on: April 15, 2011, 03:37:15 PM »
Go get it: http://www16.big.or.jp/~zun/html/th13dl.html

Disc version will be sold through Melonbooks it seems.

All download mirrors are overloaded, but there's this.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

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Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #380 on: April 15, 2011, 03:37:33 PM »
Dammit, too many people trying to download.

I wanna my demoooooo~! *whine*  :qq:
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Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #381 on: April 15, 2011, 03:38:45 PM »
All download mirrors are overloaded, but there's this.
TORRENTING WE ARE STRONGER.

I think not even Steam on those big release days had this happening...

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Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #382 on: April 15, 2011, 03:39:13 PM »
Hey, demo's finally out! WOOO ~

...damnit, server overload. Can't get anything.
Plus until my other system gets fixed I'll be running this under WINE...gah!

Torrents it is!
C:DOS> ayayaya.mid
Bad command or file name

C:>_

Kips McKipzerson

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Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #383 on: April 15, 2011, 03:39:58 PM »
Fuck I hate torrenting, but no choise I suppose.

Anyone here a moonspoker? I wanna at least get the name of the first boss or something.

Berzul

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Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #384 on: April 15, 2011, 03:40:24 PM »
All download mirrors are overloaded, but there's this.
Yes... YESSSS thank you!

Observer

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Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #385 on: April 15, 2011, 03:43:50 PM »
?VIVA EL TORRENTE!

In 15 mins I'll be done. :V

RE-BORN INDISCRIMINATE INSTINCT

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #386 on: April 15, 2011, 03:48:03 PM »
For those who don't like torrents, there's always Mediafire.

For those who DO like torrents, keep seeding please.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2011, 03:50:28 PM by Rain Lindwurm »

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

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Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #387 on: April 15, 2011, 03:48:54 PM »
not_a_virus.exe

MaxKnight

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Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #388 on: April 15, 2011, 03:49:33 PM »
I suppose it's a good thing I'm at work, then; by the time I get home, either the server load will be down, or there will be more than enough people seeding it that it won't take hardly any time at all!

Guess I should look into installing a Torrent client, though....

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 13 ~ Ten Desires announced! - Thread II (Reitaisai 8 scheduled!)
« Reply #389 on: April 15, 2011, 03:51:44 PM »
not_a_virus.exe

Yes, it's a virus. I'm linking you all to a virus. Go and download that virus.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."