Author Topic: 東方意地奴 ~ Touhou Ijiyatsu - Monarchly Moron (Ver. 1.00e) (Read 62990 times)

Gpop · « **Reply #480 on:** November 17, 2009, 01:44:02 PM »

Tbh I'm completely fine with the characters and all. The fact that we're considered a Touhou forum makes sense with the design Slaves used.

For example, I'm based on Koishi for the obvious reason that I'm a large Koi-fan. Of course, you could make me a Tae Kwon Do fighting chick, but the only thing I disagree with is that people would pair me too much with Meiling, whom I care much really.

Sana · « **Reply #481 on:** November 17, 2009, 01:59:54 PM »

Quote from: Koipop on November 17, 2009, 01:44:02 PM

Tae Kwon Do fighting chick

I had to do it.

Sana ilu

Mounting Jaggis · « **Reply #482 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:23:48 PM »

I started helping because I was seeing barely any work done, or at least in this thread. I started making the sprites but then I realized that after I finished the sprites my part was probably done, so I'm learning Danmakufu so I can help out a bit more. So far I can make simple spellcards, but I can't think of spellcards that have that artistic feel of Touhou which is why I was trying to make Flashtirde's design for Nobu's cards. I should post a video version of what I think he wanted one of them to look like. Anyways here's another update to the Gpop sprites, I added the collar which I kept forgetting to put.

Drake · « **Reply #483 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:35:10 PM »

Well I certainly didn't expect something like this when I seriousposted. Oh well, it's nice to see some people agreeing.

Quote from: Roukanken on November 17, 2009, 12:53:32 PM

Maybe it'd be more of an idea to make the bare-bones game first, and then afterwards work on adding characters other than the playables/bosses.

I already mentioned before that programming the skeleton code of Embodiments will be secondary as well as the scoring system, then way later the Embodiments will be added. There's no rush to jump out of the boat right now or anything, people. We have a long way to go before we get to you.

Maid Xan~ · « **Reply #484 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:42:20 PM »

I thought looking like touhou characters was the point. Also, I think MtG and ES Anthony need to calm down. I'm sure if they need to drop some embodiments, they'll ask more directly.

Nobu · « **Reply #485 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:43:00 PM »

Regarding character design: I don't see borrowing certain elements from Touhou because our game has parody elements. The source material is blatantly obvious and we're not trying to hide that fact. Honestly, the more obvious the parody is, the less we'd be accused of 'trying to be original but failing miserably', i'd think.

The only issue I have is with the names that are exactly taken from existing characters (i.e. Letty, Tenshi) that we should probably look into changing.

Regarding Embodiments: I am all for reducing programmer workload, but I wonder if there is another way? What if we standardized embodiments across each stage (so the character that pops up as an embodiment is superficial), and just included embodiments as a pool of sprites that the game can pull from when an embodiment appears?

If we make it randomized somehow, it wouldn't really be much a problem to include more embodiments because it'd essentially just adding a new sprite to the pool. And even if the pool is large, that would just mean that you'd see different embodiments on every playthrough, and have to play through multiple times to see them all.

Regarding Story/world development: I think all the races of Gensokyo are fair game. I am interested in keeping things simple though, and avoiding things like "Divine Celestial Yeti riding a bull, holding an eel and chicken in it's hands Warrior Eirei". I mean, It's ok to want your character to be cool, but you should have some kind of justification as to why they need to be X or Y, aside from "But it'd make my character the sweetest ever!" You can still be a Youkai or Human and be cool, look at over 90% of the Touhou cast.

Quote from: Roukanken on November 17, 2009, 12:53:32 PM

As for race, I admit that I'm not sure where to go in terms of ideas. I was thinking the tsukumogami form of a writer's much-loved pencil, but is that stealing too much from Kogasa?

If we make the pencil purple, then this would be perfect. Stealing is bad, but parodies are great if done well. As long as we don't give the impression that we're slapping a new paint job on an existing ZUN trope and trying to pass it off as original, we can be liberal with the parodies.

And hey, that would mean we can make referential jokes in the dialog to add to the parody aspect. "Who in their right mind would use an eggplant-colored pencil anyway? At least if you were an umbrella you'd be a little more useful."

Naut · « **Reply #486 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:52:22 PM »

@Roukanken and @Nobu~:

Quote from: Roukanken on November 17, 2009, 12:53:32 PM

I was worried on touching on the 'too many Embodiments' issue, but the complaints being made by the programmers are honestly pretty valid. Maybe it'd be more of an idea to make the bare-bones game first, and then afterwards work on adding characters other than the playables/bosses. At the very least, the idea of having to program all of these Embodiments in when there's nothing to work from may end up being disheartening to the programmers, while adding on to an already fully-built product will be both easier and less stressful.

Quote from: Nobu~ on November 17, 2009, 03:43:00 PM

Regarding Embodiments: I am all for reducing programmer workload, but I wonder if there is another way? What if we standardized embodiments across each stage (so the character that pops up as an embodiment is superficial), and just included embodiments as a pool of sprites that the game can pull from when an embodiment appears?

I have no problem programming entire boss fights for every person in CPMC, with talk events, several non-cards, a bunch of kill cards and a survival (especially since I know most of you have ideas for your own danmaku, and coming up with spellcard designs is always much harder than actually programming them), it's just that the game will be extremely boring and repetitive. Part of what makes Touhou awesome is that you can just sit down and play for an hour, and you've beaten the game. No save points or any of that bs. With eight trillion bosses, suddenly a ~40 minute game becomes an afternoon sitdown.

Actually, on the thought of how long the game will take to beat:This game will probably take longer to beat than a regular Touhou game (even by taking out everybody's spellcards, the amount of content in the game will still be overwhelming), I'd guess anywhere around an hour to and hour and fifteen minutes (and up), depending on how extravagant the boss fights will be. And that's not even including Extra and Phantasm, which will be their own ~fifteen minute stage + battle. How does everybody feel about being able to continue your game (save at the start of the stage, turn off the game, come back to it later)? I wouldn't want to have it so you can save in the middle of a stage though (possibly something like autosaving at the start of a stage and boss). Just throwing the idea out there. Two issues with this would be broken replay files, where they will not save your previous data -- only the amount you played in the one sitting, as well as inaccurate slowdown percentages on the replay files, so take that in to account.

@Skye:
Looks awesome, when I get the sprite sheet (or individual .png files as you choose to make them), I'll put them in the next Gpop builds.

@Drake:

Quote from: Drake on November 17, 2009, 06:41:55 AM

Random idea, if Zengar's special ability is up-close cleavage, I suggest Gpop shouldn't have any collision detection with the enemy (running into them won't kill you). Possibly while unfocused or something.

I'd love to hear how you plan to code this without making every enemy's hitbox a horrible fusion of the distance forumla, ShootDownPlayer and ridiculous incrementing global variables. I just don't see it :S

@Nobu~ again:

Quote from: Nobu~ on November 17, 2009, 03:43:00 PM

If we make it randomized somehow, it wouldn't really be much a problem to include more embodiments because it'd essentially just adding a new sprite to the pool. And even if the pool is large, that would just mean that you'd see different embodiments on every playthrough, and have to play through multiple times to see them all.

I like the idea of randomized mini-bosses, or possibly player-character dependent mini-bosses.

Mounting Jaggis · « **Reply #487 on:** November 17, 2009, 04:02:06 PM »

I thought Embodiments were like Death Fairies instead of minibosses

Slaves · « **Reply #488 on:** November 17, 2009, 04:04:33 PM »

Embodiments are basically UFOs that attack, unless i missed something.

Nobu · « **Reply #489 on:** November 17, 2009, 04:04:41 PM »

@Naut: I always imagined Embodiments to be glorified UFOs that shot stuff. In any one UFO game you'll have at least a few UFOs popping up per stage, so even if you couldn't see all the different embodiments on one playthrough, you'd see a number of them. Once you have the embodiment framework in place, it wouldn't really make a difference in workload to include more or less embodiments if they were just sprites for the game to choose from? It fits with the current story construct to have everyone's embodiments using the same attacks, because it's just the Idiot Energy taking the form of a character it consumed.

And this is still something on the backburner, but if we include the "See an embodiment, unlock their bio and character portrait/concept art", it still allows the embodiments to have personality without cluttering up the main scenario.

Also, about game length: Is there anything that i'm not seeing that would make the game so much longer than a normal Touhou game? We have midbosses on the 1st, 4th(though this could be cut as it's a random reappearnace), 5th, and 6th stages. This is pretty much the same framework as PCB and UFO.

Quote from: Skye on November 17, 2009, 04:02:06 PM

I thought Embodiments were like Death Fairies instead of minibosses

Embodiments are closer to UFOs than midbosses or Death Fairies. They are important for scoring and getting items, have a condition to appear, and are more substantial than a normal Death Fairy. They'd probably have a life bar and a name too, but they'd be really easy to kill.

Mounting Jaggis · « **Reply #490 on:** November 17, 2009, 04:06:36 PM »

I actually meant on terms of difficulty

Slaves · « **Reply #491 on:** November 17, 2009, 04:07:21 PM »

Quote from: Nobu~ on November 17, 2009, 04:04:41 PM

They'd probably have a life bar and a name too

you mean like when someone uses a spellcard? if so, i don't think we should do that. just have it be a red bar above/below them like UFOs have.

Maid Xan~ · « **Reply #492 on:** November 17, 2009, 04:09:17 PM »

Quote from: Slaves on November 17, 2009, 04:07:21 PM

you mean like when someone uses a spellcard? if so, i don't think we should do that. just have it be a red bar above/below them like UFOs have.

At least give them a name hovering around somewhere...

Nobu · « **Reply #493 on:** November 17, 2009, 04:09:29 PM »

Quote from: Slaves on November 17, 2009, 04:07:21 PM

you mean like when someone uses a spellcard? if so, i don't think we should do that. just have it be a red bar above/below them like UFOs have.

I was talking about like UFOs have. We could still put the embodiment name in the same place it appears for bosses though, right? Having a name floating with the life bar would be too much.

Suikama · « **Reply #494 on:** November 17, 2009, 04:11:53 PM »

If we have too many embodiments, we could just turn some of them into enemies like Stuffman :V

Drake · « **Reply #495 on:** November 17, 2009, 04:16:36 PM »

I think as most of the planning for Embodiments is already done, we shouldn't dwell on it too much until we can actually visualize how much more work it'll be to add them in. What'll probably be done is the name appears in the corner and a lifebar appears above them, like UFOs except with a name. That's it.

Also, each enemy will load up sets of functions from within the library. Some are run each frame, some are called upon. One that's run each frame would just be

sub EnemyCollisionB(x,y,r){
if(GetPlayerScriptName!=GpopA || GetPlayerScriptName!=GpopB){
SetCollisionB(x,y,r);
}else if(GetPlayerMoveState==MOVE_SLOW){
SetCollisionB(x,y,r);
}
}

Why wouldn't that work? You just give it the same parameters as SetCollisionB and it just inherits them.

Naut · « **Reply #496 on:** November 17, 2009, 04:34:54 PM »

Yes.

is this in agreement or what

'Tis what yes means.

Drake · « **Reply #497 on:** November 17, 2009, 05:33:22 PM »

Now that I think about it, it should really only apply to stage enemies. If you could phase through bosses you could just grazewhore and time out a lot of cards, making Gpop stupidly good at scoring. In return he can phase regardless of focus because it doesn't make much difference either way.

sub EnemyCollisionB(x,y,r){
if(GetPlayerScriptName!=GpopA || GetPlayerScriptName!=GpopB){
SetCollisionB(x,y,r);
}else if(IsBossExisting){
SetCollisionB(x,y,r);
}
}

Nobu · « **Reply #498 on:** November 17, 2009, 05:59:50 PM »

Yeah, avoiding clipdeath by normal mobs is one of those "Neat character specific gimmicks", but nothing game breaking like portalling through the wall or something like that. >_>

Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin · « **Reply #499 on:** November 17, 2009, 06:20:07 PM »

ahahahaha.

(also I'd be the second Embodiment to suggest withdrawing, but if we're taking that "OMES Extra" ending as canon, I'm kinda stuck here ...)

I think somebody needs to mention Embodiments in-character, and within one or two lines of dialogue if not the same line, the words "Scarlet" and/or "Devil" should come up.

Also also: if it's going to be that long, I'm wondering if we shouldn't have some sort of stage-select thing, so that you aren't stuck doing an hour-at-a-time sort of thing.

Also also also: my take on renaming Touhou-named characters: maybe combine them with another screen name they use? ("Letty Mint" maybe?)

Hmm ... is anything finalized (or, indeed, suggested) about which Embodiments will be on what stage? My bio is basically "Random person wandering around semi-cheerfully and hasn't quite found her place yet ~~... OR IS SHE?~~" at the moment, which except for that last bit sounds like stage 1 material, but I wonder if it might be funny to parody that sort of thing by putting it much later in the game (or, indeed, how many people would actually get it) ...

Pesco · « **Reply #500 on:** November 17, 2009, 06:34:57 PM »

Hey Muffin. Write up a dialogue scene that has 'Embodiment of Scarlet Devil' as the hidden message.

Mounting Jaggis · « **Reply #501 on:** November 17, 2009, 06:35:22 PM »

Quote from: KimikoMuffin on November 17, 2009, 06:20:07 PM

Hmm ... is anything finalized (or, indeed, suggested) about which Embodiments will be on what stage? My bio is basically "Random person wandering around semi-cheerfully and hasn't quite found her place yet ~~... OR IS SHE?~~" at the moment, which except for that last bit sounds like stage 1 material, but I wonder if it might be funny to parody that sort of thing by putting it much later in the game (or, indeed, how many people would actually get it) ...

I think it was decided that the Embodiments are dopplegangers of the characters created by the idiot energy. Since we are making a backstory for some of them it wouldn't make much sense if they were born during this incident. I don't think backstory will affect the stage appearance.

Nobu · « **Reply #502 on:** November 17, 2009, 06:48:19 PM »

Basically what Drake said. They're pretty much 'dopplegangers' in a sense. Think "prototypical Sci Fi blob hivemind, that can take the form of anything its consumed"

@Muffin: There's no reason why the embodiments can't be referred to by the characters: For one, it's part of the incident (the disappearances and the free idiot energy), and two, the embodiments were all denizens of the Ijiyatsu world before the incident so they can still have backstory with the players and bosses. So the players and most bosses would be sorta clueless to what's going on, why their friends are emerging from these idiot energy mists to attack them, etc.

The bios for embodiments would pretty much be a quick blurb about how they fit into the world or something about their normal personality. Think Pokedex entry.

Slaves · « **Reply #503 on:** November 17, 2009, 06:53:11 PM »

the programmers should appear in OMES.

Nobu · « **Reply #504 on:** November 17, 2009, 07:14:52 PM »

Slaves: One of your spellcards needs to use miniDrakes as danmaku. Or have a bunch of mini-Drakes as familiars.

Slaves · « **Reply #505 on:** November 17, 2009, 07:15:59 PM »

Drake can be my little helper.

Letty Whiterock · « **Reply #506 on:** November 17, 2009, 07:28:51 PM »

A thought. The cast of this game is huge. Why don't we cut out a large number of characters and save them for the inevitable sequel?

Moerin · « **Reply #507 on:** November 17, 2009, 07:32:32 PM »

Quote from: Letty Whiterock on November 17, 2009, 07:28:51 PM

A thought. The cast of this game is huge. Why don't we cut out a large number of characters and save them for the inevitable sequel?

I was thinking this, but I thought it might be a bit too optimisitic of me to say so...

But yes, I agree~ We have enough characters for about another 8 stages, right?

Helepolis · « **Reply #508 on:** November 17, 2009, 07:41:01 PM »

I think we should first see how it all fits and gets. It is too early to judge about anything yet as the game is not even being made yet. We are just trying to prevent people from being dissapointed when suddenly such situation does occur.

As drama is inevitable* always in such things.

Nobu · « **Reply #509 on:** November 17, 2009, 07:45:28 PM »

The embodiment system's original intention was to be a way to fit in as many characters as we could but still keep the game storyline in the same kind of flow as a Touhou game, and make things easy on the programmers too.

We shouldn't start thinking about a sequel when the first game is still in formulative stages, because that'd be like obligating the programmers to complete a second game to take care of the people who didn't make it in the first one.