Author Topic: Touhou Smash Bros Project (Development & info thread) (Read 189173 times)

Helepolis · « **Reply #150 on:** June 20, 2014, 08:06:12 AM »

I've mainly asked the question because it tends to be a typical phenomenon on the forums or any public website where person A declares a fan game / project having dozens of pages but actual 0 progress as core. Personal opinion, I think textures (graphics, music (bgm and sfx) are low(est) priorities when developing alone. A frame work is more important where you can already play the game in a simple level so important programming aspects such as collision, game mechanics, control, camera viewpoints etc are taken care of.

For example I was pretty impressed by the sample video you posted. I was hoping to see similar for your Smash Bros game. Just 1 character showing some simple moves. Though you've set up a development route so I'll watch warmly.

Edit: Oh and I am not being hypocritical as my own dnh game is also still in development and actually making serious progress. I just don't discuss or show anything to public except the designated future alpha/beta testers within my "circle".

Saijee · « **Reply #151 on:** June 20, 2014, 08:32:47 AM »

I'm aware of that phenomenon, but unlike those people, I have something very important on the line for this. That is something that very strictly motivates me to to not mess around and get this thing solid before January.

Helepolis · « **Reply #152 on:** June 20, 2014, 08:45:26 AM »

Heh, we're in the same boat regarding that. I'm planning on releasing my game actually for upcoming Reitaisai as well. I think before the circle registrations it needs to be done before end of this year as well.

EditApologies for missing this as the computer at our company office tends to be a jerk.

Quote from: PhantomSong on June 20, 2014, 07:23:27 AM

I did not intend to break any rules with my post in any form of matter, it's just Saijee shows a lack of caring with suggestions that everyone has clearly stated involving models. The issue is apparent with most people here, the models need improving.

I wasn't particularly naming people nor referring directly to you nor said you were breaking rules. I just made a general statement, you just happened to be on top of my post.

The swaying content of various posts from some people in this thread had multiple times urged me to put on my mod cap just to remind people of our section rules that we respect people's work and avoid drama at cost. Subjective opinions about models not being taken into account by the developer remains a choice from him/her. By multiple times bashing the modelling style or technique or how in some people's eyes some characters don't have the expression they expect, is not a valid reason to keep on going on about it.

This isn't in defence of Saijee, but in defence of us all. We're trying to have a healthy discussion / feedback going on here. Obviously both sides (dev + feedbackers) are having some misconceptions regarding this. That is why we all should step back from a moment and re-read what was said, asked and try to refine our feedback. Just a tip

Also please do not forget that constructive criticism about graphics/looks/textures/models is hardly constructive, instead has a major subjective element to it. Unless we were discussing the fluency of animations and such where for example an arm looks dislocated when it is moving around.

Colticide · « **Reply #153 on:** June 20, 2014, 12:21:48 PM »

Thank you Helepolis! I said the same thing a few pages back about the actual game. I don't have any 3d modeling experience but I do know that that is how the basics are designed, you ever seen a game glitch out and the character turns into a mannequin? That's the base model where everything is worked from (at least that's what I would assume). I really feel we should start talking about the game, refining the models can come later.

Quote from: Helepolis on June 20, 2014, 08:06:12 AM

Oh and I am not being hypocritical as my own dnh game is also still in development and actually making serious progress. I just don't discuss or show anything to public except the designated future alpha/beta testers within my "circle".

I hear you on that, I don't even want to start a topic on my project since its no where ready to play yet. My issue is do I work on my game assets first (since that will take a majority of the time) or get a working demo build with assets others made and maybe get some help on where to take it. But then again my words mean nothing as I'm very much a beginner and teaching myself as well... *sigh*

game2011 · « **Reply #154 on:** June 28, 2014, 04:04:40 PM »

Complete moveset:
https://www.sendspace.com/file/ptx7th

Enjoy!

Saijee · « **Reply #155 on:** August 12, 2014, 07:26:07 AM »

So I've been busy, and I just finished learning how to use animate in Maya, program in C#, and develop video games using Unity.
I've just made a scheduled, and if I follow it, I should have a public demo ready by the end of the year that showcases 6 playable characters, and confirms 2 other characters that are not playable in the demo because they would not be completed by that time.

3 of these 8 characters are going to be Reimu, Sakuya, and Tenshi.

Tell me who the other 3 playable characters you would choose, and who would the other 2 confirmed characters be if it were up to you?

To me it makes a lot of sense that Marisa should be playable, but on the other hand, I feel like weather or not she makes it into the final game would ever be a question and that maybe Touhou fans would prefer the demo showcase a less obvious character.

Anyway, here's Sakuya standing as close to her Idle pose in SWR as I could get:

Yookie · « **Reply #156 on:** August 12, 2014, 07:55:41 AM »

That Sakuya model looks really good, I like it.
Imho it would be alright to put Marisa into the demo and keep the less obvious characters hidden since that gives us something to speculate about. :V

Other playables? Many good movesets posted have been posted...
Me suggesting Yuuka is kinda obvious, but I'll do it anyway. ~~Replica~~ Remilia and Yuyuko would be neat as well.

Got nothing for confirmations. Considering that Tenshi is already in it my suggestions for playable pretty much cover that. :V

Leon゠Helsing · « **Reply #157 on:** August 12, 2014, 09:51:09 AM »

If my gut feeling is correct, you already have the characters set in stone and are just curious about our thoughts.
Anyway, one of the other playable characters would be Sanae, if only for the obligatory Mario vs. Luigi parallel. :V
Two other playables would be Youmu (lol swords) and Marisa (yet another obligatory numero dos :V).
The two unfinished-but-confirmed characters would probably be either Suika or Yuugi (for that one heavy, REAL SOVIET DAMAGE dealing character) and Reisen (lol finger guns).

KingofBaka · « **Reply #158 on:** August 12, 2014, 05:42:18 PM »

That Sakuya model looks excellent.
My ideas for playable would be Suika , Flandre , and Meiling.
Ideas for Confirmed would be Utsuho and Cirno.

I might make a moveset later on. I'm too tired to make one right now. :V

Prime32 · « **Reply #159 on:** August 12, 2014, 08:38:29 PM »

Quote from: Saijee on August 12, 2014, 07:26:07 AM

To me it makes a lot of sense that Marisa should be playable, but on the other hand, I feel like weather or not she makes it into the final game would ever be a question and that maybe Touhou fans would prefer the demo showcase a less obvious character.

Put her in, just because every fighting game needs a Shotoclone. :V

I say go with whatever initial characters would give the widest variety of playstyles, and give the "confirmed" slots to characters with rabid fanbases to better gather hype. :V Youmu could be a good choice for the initial roster if she plays similar to Marth, since that could draw SSB fans and it's harder to advertise without gameplay. At that point you might as well give the last slot to Sanae just to have all the main characters from the shooters.

I'd love to see Remilia, so I guess you can take that as a vote for one of the confirmeds. (putting her in right away would feel like EoSD was being overrepresented)

Kaze_Senshi · « **Reply #160 on:** August 12, 2014, 09:17:34 PM »

Quote from: Saijee on August 12, 2014, 07:26:07 AM

Tell me who the other 3 playable characters you would choose, and who would the other 2 confirmed characters be if it were up to you?

Try to pick the top characters from this year's popularity pool while you try to cover all games. Using this parameter as base I would select the following characters:

Koishi
Youmu
Aya
Mokou
Kokoro

Saijee · « **Reply #161 on:** August 13, 2014, 12:52:07 AM »

@ Leonard-Helsing, your gut feeling is wrong, I honestly don't know any more than you on who is confirmed for the final roster OR the demo.

There are a lot of factors that I must consider when making a character roster. Just to name a few:
1) How Popular is the character with the fans.
2) How Frequent does that character appear playable in the games.
3) If the character isn't very playable in official games, would it be interesting to make them playable here.
4) What do I have to work with when it comes to making composing a play-style and move-set for the character. '
5) Try to not over-represent the cast of 1 touhou game when there is such a plethora to work with.

There is a lot of sense with going with a roster that priorities character official relevance, such as:
Youmu
Aya
Sanae
Cirno

But on the other hand, there is a neat appeal to novelty for presenting characters that don't really get to be played, such as:
Mokou
Yuugi
Flandre
Shinmyoumaru

But even deeper, it's even more novel to present characters that a lot of fans agree are very cool that don't seem to have much likelyhood to be in the roster because of how they lack relevance compared to other characters, such as:
Ran
Momiji
Little Devil
Nazrin
Wakasagihime
Mystia
----
Also I'm not sure if I asked this in my post or not, but you guys are doing it anyway, bring up reasons why you think those characters should be in the demo.

All the points made so far are pretty good ones. Between making the game more approachable to the already established Smash Bros base, and the Popularity poles.

Prime32 · « **Reply #162 on:** August 13, 2014, 02:33:00 AM »

There's been a lot of talk about playable characters, but do you have any plans for Assist Trophies or stage hazards? Some characters just have a particular gimmick that seems well-suited to it. Some ideas:

Assist Trophies

Catfish: Catfish!
Hina: NEGATIVE ZONE kurukuru~
Kosuzu: Reads a book, causing a swarm of tsukumogami to animate and attack. Similar to Unown or Excitebike.
Mima: Mew equivalent. Does nothing, but appears so rarely that you get an achievement for it.
Mimi-chan: Flies straight ahead, creates a large explosion after it hits something or goes past a certain distance.
Momiji: Could make a decent Lyn or Samurai Goroh equivalent, chasing enemies around the screen to attack them.
Nazrin: Digs a bunch of random items up from the ground.
Reisen II: Looks around worried for a moment, then spams bullets straight ahead. Similar to Chikorita, Staryu and so on.
Rinnosuke: The dud trophy, similar to Goldeen.
Rumia: Darkens the screen.
Seija: Flips the screen upside-down for a while, causing confusion.
Suika: Punches the screen, causing shatter marks to obscure it and possibly destroying the GUI - same basic concept as Nintendogs. Alternately, a Snorlax clone.
Yoshika: Lurches toward the nearest enemy and grabs them, dealing continuous damage until they manage to break free. Similar to the ReDead enemies in Melee's Adventure Mode.

Stage Hazards

Flandre: Ultimate Chimera type. Get close, you get smacked by Laevateinn and die instantly.
Kisume: Watch out for falling objects.
Lily White: Lily is always a midboss. Always. Even when the game doesn't have stages.
Tojiko: Hangs around in a Taoist stage and zaps people, I dunno.

Sagus · « **Reply #163 on:** August 13, 2014, 03:34:52 AM »

Quote from: Saijee on August 13, 2014, 12:52:07 AM

Shinmyoumaru

Yes

I'd be interested in seeing Yuuka around, perhaps filling the "slow but powerful" slot (she has the lowest speed stat in PoFV, so it'd have precedence, and PMiSS talks about her being overwhemingly powerful in both the physical and magical sense).

Other characters I'd like to see are Yukari (so much portal fun and trains), Yoshika (perhaps a Yoshika/Seiga character? Yoshika being directly controlled while Seiga floats behind her, with the former doing melee moves and the later doing ranged attacks), Kanako and Suwako (I admit to wanting this just so I can play a "Suwa War rematch" :V) and, if you're doing PC-98, Shinki (for the unplayable OP secret boss, maybe?)

Saijee · « **Reply #164 on:** August 13, 2014, 04:19:12 AM »

Yes well I think we are deviating a bit from the matter of the first 6-8 characters.

Let me explain it this way:

I'm going to have this game's opening A Touhou version of SSB64's opening, who do you want to appear in that opening sequence? And why them?

Kaze_Senshi · « **Reply #165 on:** August 13, 2014, 04:05:38 PM »

Do the initial scene on Alice's room because Yoshi looks like a Doll. So Yoshi would be Marisa. Choose the other characters according the movements that they use on the original opening scene. For example Donkey Kong uses a "strong fighter" movement that it is hitting the ground, so you would show a strength character like Yuugi. Pikachu would be Reimu and the Pokeball would be a Ying-Yang ball. ~~Zelda~~ Link would be Youmu and etc.

Saijee · « **Reply #166 on:** August 13, 2014, 04:50:59 PM »

Quote

Choose the other characters according the movements

I suppose that is one way to do it, though I was thinking of doing it the other way around. As in NOT copying it shot-for-shot, just the timing, you know, make the character in question do a *them* thing rather than awkwardly make Touhou characters pretend to act like Nintendo characters.

I like the idea of Alice's house being the explanation for the toys though.

Kaze_Senshi · « **Reply #167 on:** August 13, 2014, 05:07:05 PM »

Quote from: Saijee on August 13, 2014, 04:50:59 PM

I suppose that is one way to do it, though I was thinking of doing it the other way around. As in NOT copying it shot-for-shot, just the timing, you know, make the character in question do a *them* thing rather than awkwardly make Touhou characters pretend to act like Nintendo characters.

I was thinking to use this 'awkwardness' as a funny factor to get people's attention, also there is a nostalgia factor when doing that. However your idea is good too.

Prime32 · « **Reply #168 on:** August 13, 2014, 05:27:08 PM »

Alternately, make the items on the desk a hat and a mug of beer. :]

Saijee · « **Reply #169 on:** August 14, 2014, 10:09:23 PM »

I use the fighting game sprites as reference for the poses, but that's not to say that the movesets will be identical by any means to the official fighting games.

Here is a GIF I made showing that Sakuya with 3 idle animations.... She's checking her stop watch by the way (the model of the stop watch will be in her hand in the game).

Please note that in the game the idle will not sequence through like this, it will play the idle pose for a while, and on occasion do one of the other two animations.

Yookie · « **Reply #170 on:** August 15, 2014, 10:14:32 AM »

Looks good but maybe a bit fast at times.
She barely looks at the watch and it seems more like she would be throwing/flinging something light or waving her hand at someone in a taunting manner.

Helepolis · « **Reply #171 on:** August 15, 2014, 11:55:42 AM »

I don't know what it is, but I just love poses where the knife / sword is held "reversed". In many games I find this quite the bad ass look.

Saijee · « **Reply #172 on:** August 15, 2014, 05:19:40 PM »

You are correct. The system I have so far allows me to work with animations with only up to 100 frames. Because I have all animations on one timeline each one starting at a multiple of 100. Don't worry about the speed though, because once they get to Unity, I'll have a variable that lets me set the speed of each animation independently.

Savory · « **Reply #173 on:** August 17, 2014, 03:49:36 AM »

Quote from: Prime32 on August 13, 2014, 02:33:00 AM

There's been a lot of talk about playable characters, but do you have any plans for Assist Trophies or stage hazards?

I was thinking of something like this, except they're shikigami slips (portrayed as pieces of paper cut in the forms of little men). Pick them up and they transform into a random character. Here were my ideas.

Alice
-Deploys an army of exploding dolls that wander about the stage. They are all similar to Bob-ombs and will detonate if they come into contact with another fighter.

Chen
-Jolts to and fro, spinning into enemy combatants. Her attacks are weak, but she hits multiple times.

Hina
-Releases purple smoke about her that poisons enemies.

Iku
-Assumes a disco pose and lightning strikes the area where she stands, causing a large explosion of electricity.

Komachi
-Attacks enemies by swinging her scythe about.

Nazrin
-Throws out helpful items onto the stage.

Kogasa
-Bursts onto the stage with an explosion of confetti in an attempt to surprise. Deal a small percentage of damage, but otherwise worthless.

Rumia
-Floats about aimlessly then attaches herself to an enemy while cloaked in an orb of darkness.

Soga no Tojiko
-Discharges a field of electricity around her.

Suika
-Takes a few swigs from her gourd before setting out an attacking foes. Quite strong and is even able to KO with two punches.

Quote from: Saijee on August 12, 2014, 07:26:07 AM

3 of these 8 characters are going to be Reimu, Sakuya, and Tenshi.

Tell me who the other 3 playable characters you would choose, and who would the other 2 confirmed characters be if it were up to you?

So with Reimu, Sakuya and Tenshi being part of the first three, I suppose for the next five I would pick:

Meiling
Cirno
Reisen
Marisa
(A character that's out there. Like Wriggle or something)

Colticide · « **Reply #174 on:** August 17, 2014, 08:29:14 PM »

I gotta say it's been a while since I was on the site but once I seen that .gif of Sakuya, I had a big smile. Looks very good, back then I wasn't sure about the colors but its grown on me looking at it now. I can't really offer much in any advice anymore so I'll wait till the demo is ready to help out then.

Prime32 · « **Reply #175 on:** August 17, 2014, 09:43:06 PM »

Another character concept. Sometimes I wish there were collapsible spoilers for all these :wikipedia:

Yuugi
Yuugi's attacks are tremendously powerful, often coming with transcendant priority, shield-breaking properties and/or super armor. To compensate she has low speed, poor aerials, and is one of the few characters to lack any form of projectile. Ganondorf physics, more or less. Her attack animations look like she's never particularly exerting herself, she grins when struck instead of flinching, and her shield animation is just her thrusting out her chest. If feasible to animate, she carries sake that NOT EVEN DROP and attacks only with her left hand.
EDIT: Roll animation is a short hop forwards or backwards. If there are heavy items like crates, then Yuugi (and Suika) inherit DK's ability to carry them without slowing down.

Standard

Neutral: A single, fairly slow jab that does extra damage to shields.
Forward: A hook punch with some upwards knockback.
Up: A punch straight upwards. One of Yuugi's faster moves.
Down: A basic kick.
Dash: Shoulder tackle similar to Ganondorf's.

Aerials

Neutral: Headbutt that delivers a meteor smash but leaves Yuugi vulnerable
Forward: Falcon Knee
Reverse: Backhand sweep
Up: ?
Down: Elbow drop with a large hitbox.

Smash Attacks

Side: Yuugi peforms a wide sweep with her arm.
Up - Adamant Helix: Yuugi thrusts her palm upwards, creating a corkscrew-like stream of white-orange light. Transcendant priority and unusually long reach.
Down - Annihilating Roar: Yuugi faces the camera and roars, emitting destructive white rings. Their range is short, but they can pass through walls.

Specials

Neutral: Basically Ganondorf's Warlock Punch if the flames were white-orange.
Side: A chargeable, lunging punch that grants super armor while sending Yuugi forward. Works like Little Mac's Straight Lunge (minus the Power Meter mechanic) or Ike's Quick Draw.
Up - Shackles a Prisoner Can't Take Off: Recovery move that throws a spinning shackle upwards, latching on to thin air and pulling Yuugi up slightly beyond the latch point. If it hits an enemy, it instead pulls them downwards.
Down: Yuugi stomps with one foot, functioning like Ike's Eruption. Based on Knockout in Three Steps, just... with only one step.
Final Smash - Anomalies, Strength, Disorder, and Spirits: Yuugi delivers a short-range lunging jab. If it hits, the target is sucked into a cinematic Final Smash. Yuugi tosses her sake into the air and proceeds to beat on her opponent with both fists, like so. The last blow sends the opponent flying so hard that they shatter the moon (or just the screen).

Throws

Forward: Yuugi leans back and delivers a headbutt. With her horn.
Reverse: Casually tosses enemy over her shoulder.
Up: Yuugi tosses the opponent lightly upwards, then delivers an uppercut.
Down: Yuugi jumps up and slams her enemy into the ground, similar to Kirby's Down Throw.

Saijee · « **Reply #176 on:** August 18, 2014, 05:19:10 AM »

Yuugi seems to be depicted 1 of 2 ways in fan art. Either very feminine (Slender Busty and Curvy) or very masculine (Edgy and Built).
I personally like the later of the depictions, things like this: http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/jp/image/1337/05/1337055066174.jpg
Exudes a solid image of toughness.

I was thinking that it would be fun to have Yuugi as a tank character. Physically taller and larger than the other characters.

Personally I was thinking of designing her with a unique capital T. TANK trait. Permanent 10% super armor: Attacks that do less than 10% cannot ever phase her.

Also she's got that horn. Maybe I'm alone here, but I always thought it would be cool, and I could see her pulling it off too, if she used it like Destroyah:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqhYubGqz3c

I think she could still have some projectiles. I mean I thought those vibrating String-Theory looking rings she tossed at you in SA were pretty memorable.

Prime32 · « **Reply #177 on:** August 18, 2014, 01:44:07 PM »

Quote from: Saijee on August 18, 2014, 05:19:10 AM

I think she could still have some projectiles. I mean I thought those vibrating String-Theory looking rings she tossed at you in SA were pretty memorable.

Well I figure there should be someone without any projectiles, and Yuugi seems like one of the characters where it makes most sense. Suika says that Yuugi is physically stronger than her but not as good with magic stuff. Plus Yuugi puts a lot of emphasis on an "honest fight" - attacking from a distance where you can't be harmed could be seen as cowardly. Smash places far less emphasis on projectiles than Touhou (even the Touhou fighters) to the point of removing projectile attacks from characters who had them in their source games.

Or if you prefer: Captain Falcon wouldn't be as badass if he had a projectile, and you know it. BV

Saijee · « **Reply #178 on:** August 18, 2014, 04:35:12 PM »

There are also Smash Characters that have projectiles that just function very differently than normal projectiles though:
Kirby's Final Cutter
Bowser's Flame Breath
Charizard's Boulder Smash
Pikachu's Thunder
Ivysour's Bullet Seed
Peach's Toad
Yoshi's Ground Pound (Little Stars)
Mario's FLUDD

You get the picture.

Prime32 · « **Reply #179 on:** August 18, 2014, 06:48:03 PM »

When I said projectile I meant an attack that can hit enemies in a different part of the map. Stuff that just gives a little extra reach is fine - heck, I included some moves like that already.