Touhou Gameplay Help Thread #7 - Not just for spell card help after all

[Karisa]

Another question is... what exactly does the time change at all, really? I do understand that, if you're too late by Stage 6, you automatically get the bad ending, but I never knew exactly how late, and I think I was only too late once (back when I used to play on Hard but didn't aim for 1CCs).

Do you mean the clock? Outside of FinalB, it determines the number of continues you have, since continuing adds 30 minutes. If you fail all 5 time requirements, it'll be 4am by stage 6, meaning you'd have 1 continue. (The game never lets you continue in FinalB though, regardless of the time-- you get the bad ending immediately if you run out of lives. If you need to unlock FinalB for stage practice, you can download a score.dat or clear with max starting lives.)

In FinalB, it's used for unlocking Kaguya's five Last Spells. If you fail any of Kaguya's Last Spells, time is added to the clock, and if it reaches 5:00am, the game ends immediately (it still counts as cleared).

If you mean the time orbs, aside from the requirement to unlock Last Spells, they increase your point item value, increase spell bonuses during spellcards, and are worth a substantial amount of points themselves. Scoring almost entirely revolves around time orbs (though remaining resources and graze count still contribute).

All this is irrelevant for 1ccs if you're not going for score or spell captures.

[FamilyTeam]

Ah, okay. Thanks again for taking your time to respond. I think I might aim something like...
Stage 1: Perfect (no bombs, no lives, Clock only advances 30 min)
Stage 2: Perfect (no bombs, no lives, Clock only advances 30 min)
Stage 3: Perfect (no bombs, no lives, Clock only advances 30 min)
Stage 4: 1 life maximum, using however many bombs I need. I don't care if I get enough time points or not.
Stage 5: I'd need to learn how to fight Reisen in the first place to set a benchmark, right?! ;o3o As of now I have no idea how to dodge any of her attacks, spells or nonspells, but I guess I'll figure out after I spend some weeks time playing her stage.
Stage 6: I'll do whatever, as long as I finish it ;o3o

[Sakurei]

It's worth noting that using a regular bomb does not decrease your time at all. Only death bombs do. So if you're not sure if you'll get hit or not, it's probably better to bomb.

[Nolegs the Cat]

Stage 5: I'd need to learn how to fight Reisen in the first place to set a benchmark, right?! ;o3o As of now I have no idea how to dodge any of her attacks, spells or nonspells, but I guess I'll figure out after I spend some weeks time playing her stage.

It probably isn't a good idea to bash your head against the wall. Yes, some routes or the ideas for some attacks require you to play them to be understood, but Reisen really isn't like that.

Here is a perfect IN stage 5 run replay I got like half a year ago.
It shows how to do all of her spellcards, as well as a good way to do the stage. That being said, you need to do at least decently to even hope of hitting the time bonus. Not everything that works here will work for the Magic Team (particularly for Reisen's first spellcard).
For the stage, you'll just want to kill everything ASAP. Bomb Reisen's Penultimate, it's harder then it looks, even if it isn't that difficult.

Now, some IN specific tips.
If at all possible, use single bombs over double bombs.
This is especially important for the Malice team.
Alice's bombs are pure crap and you shouldn't use them. They're both the weakest bombs in the game - and Alice's double bomb actually has a slightly lower average damage then her normal bomb!
Marisa's bombs, on the otherhand, are both powerful. It's just that Final Spark does only 200 or so more damage then her normal bomb, Master Spark (1800 vs 1600). Really not a big enough jump to be worth 2 bombs, especially when the normal Master Spark in IN is still essentially a 'this spellcard dies' button.

By the way, there is a glitch where if you rapidly focus and unfocus, both Alice and Marisa's shots hit. This makes the Malice Team have higher damage than any other IN shot-type.
This is much less broken then it sounds, their range is still really low, they still move fast, and you need to factor rapidly focusing and unfocusing into it.
I'd recommend using it, and so will practically everyone else. Even if you use it, the magic team is still the hardest group to 1cc with.

Also, not sure if the 'no miss no bomb stage 3' is simply you being good at Keine, or grinding runs until you do.
Keine is a fair bit harder than Alice on normal, so if you are grinding attempts until the NMNB stage 3, you might not want to. IN is a fair bit more forgiving than PCB, you'll be fine as long as you don't lose like 2 lives at Keine.
If you are good at Keine though that you can do it consistently, then that's actually pretty impressive.

And now, replays, replays!
I just linked probably the best Malice Team run on normal or above I can find....
Basically, it's a normal 1cc from a player with a play-style you'll appreciate.
He rarely bombs, prefering to find out how to do things and accepting deaths as they are. He goes over tactics and the like in his videos, and how to do things from a Malice-team perspective. The annotations are the real star here, I think you'll find them very helpful.

Also Lunatic stage perfects and the like and Magic Team Lunatic replays.

If you need help with specific attacks, just ask!

Keep going, you got PCB. You'll get this game easily.

(Malidex's PCB-SA shot-type analysis thread, if you're curious as to where I got the bomb data from or want to know more)

[FamilyTeam]

Also, not sure if the 'no miss no bomb stage 3' is simply you being good at Keine, or grinding runs until you do.
Keine is a fair bit harder than Alice on normal, so if you are grinding attempts until the NMNB stage 3, you might not want to. IN is a fair bit more forgiving than PCB, you'll be fine as long as you don't lose like 2 lives at Keine.
If you are good at Keine though that you can do it consistently, then that's actually pretty impressive.

I'm able to pull it off, yeah, just not consistently enough for my liking, so I'll practice it a bit.

Now, some IN specific tips.
If at all possible, use single bombs over double bombs.
This is especially important for the Malice team.
Alice's bombs are pure crap and you shouldn't use them. They're both the weakest bombs in the game - and Alice's double bomb actually has a slightly lower average damage then her normal bomb!
Marisa's bombs, on the otherhand, are both powerful. It's just that Final Spark does only 200 or so more damage then her normal bomb, Master Spark (1800 vs 1600). Really not a big enough jump to be worth 2 bombs, especially when the normal Master Spark in IN is still essentially a 'this spellcard dies' button.

By the way, there is a glitch where if you rapidly focus and unfocus, both Alice and Marisa's shots hit. This makes the Malice Team have higher damage than any other IN shot-type.
This is much less broken then it sounds, their range is still really low, they still move fast, and you need to factor rapidly focusing and unfocusing into it.
I'd recommend using it, and so will practically everyone else. Even if you use it, the magic team is still the hardest group to 1cc with.

I see, thanks for the tips, I'll try to folow them. Why is Marisa always the hardest character to do 1ccs? Grr, Zun! ?3?

Keep going, you got PCB. You'll get this game easily.

Oe, many thanks! I just need to find time to practice more. So far, it's been 28 tries to 1CC EOSD, 38 to 1CC PCB, 9 to 1CC PoFV,  and 32 to 1CC 10D funny considering I find that one the easiest. I blame Toyosatomimi.


EDIT: Not gonna double post so I'm just gonna edit this one. I hope you read this...
Well, well. For whatever reason, there doesn't seem to be a SINGLE run where I don't accidentally run into a bullet or misjudge one's hitbox, seriously! It's getting annoying!
And depending on the what happens over the next couple of weeks, I won't be playing that much Touhou, sadly. I have a really, really busy life, nowadays, and sadly I can't spend a lot of time gaming!
I tried out the Delicious Malicious Malice canon. It works well! I just need to use it more efficiently.

[Nolegs the Cat]

EDIT: Not gonna double post so I'm just gonna edit this one. I hope you read this...
Well, well. For whatever reason, there doesn't seem to be a SINGLE run where I don't accidentally run into a bullet or misjudge one's hitbox, seriously! It's getting annoying!
And depending on the what happens over the next couple of weeks, I won't be playing that much Touhou, sadly. I have a really, really busy life, nowadays, and sadly I can't spend a lot of time gaming!
I tried out the Delicious Malicious Malice canon. It works well! I just need to use it more efficiently.

Aaah... Clip Deaths. The bane of pretty much every touhou Player.

Do try to avoid dodges that involve judging hitboxes unless it's absolutely neccesary. There's only two attacks in IN normal where it's an important factor, and most people don't even fight Eirin, the boss that *has* said attacks! (Eirin's third nonspell, spellcard right before it)

In pretty much every other case, just try to avoid it. It's risky.

[FamilyTeam]

I've finished most of my schoolwork. ...But then I wrecked my right foot. Shit. I've been playing TH12 in my notebook instead, since I can't exactly go far. I'll play TH8 once my foot recovers. why am I saying foot, I wrecked my ankle.
Anyway, what do the UFOs do, really?

[Uruwi]

I've finished most of my schoolwork. ...But then I wrecked my right foot. Shit. I've been playing TH12 in my notebook instead, since I can't exactly go far. I'll play TH8 once my foot recovers. why am I saying foot, I wrecked my ankle.
Anyway, what do the UFOs do, really?

Resources.

Spawn red UFOs for lives, and greens for bombs.

[Pakken11]

Anyway, what do the UFOs do, really?

Bring about pain, death, and doom upon the player(?) *shot*

[FamilyTeam]

Bring about pain, death, and doom upon the player(?) *shot*

I can see how, now...

[SpeedySPCFan]

So... anyone got tips for the original Touhou? I'm having one hell of a tough time trying to NOT die in it. Some gameplay for reference.

[FamilyTeam]

So... anyone got tips for the original Touhou? I'm having one hell of a tough time trying to NOT die in it. Some gameplay for reference.

Ah, I'd like some, too. I tried it out a few weeks ago and it was... different?

[Karisa]

So... anyone got tips for the original Touhou? I'm having one hell of a tough time trying to NOT die in it. Some gameplay for reference.

Bombs are very powerful in stage portions, and you gain one every time you die. Also, extends are every 400,000 points (unlimited!)-- try not to waste them by being at full lives, since you don't get the bomb from dying. (The cap is 6 lives and 5 bombs.)

Combining those two, bombing for lives is possible, and can trivialize the stages if done well. If the orb isn't obstructed at the start of a stage, it'll land near the left edge-- if you slide it left from there, then immediately bomb, it should bounce off you during the bomb, chaining most of the tiles in the stage for an extra life or two.

(Meanwhile, if the orb starts by going into a teleporter, you can simply bomb right away, though teleporter randomness means you likely won't get as good a chain.)

Oh, and sliding gives you the best control over the orb, since it always moves in the same trajectory. So against stationary bosses, you can slide repeatedly to bounce the orb into them over and over (suiciding when needed, since bombing the stages gives plenty of lives, and the bosses can be pretty cheap if you actually try to dodge them).

Note that bombing bosses deals 1 damage only if you have no remaining lives, so it's better to save bombs against bosses until you have either 5 bombs or no lives, whichever comes first.

I hope this helps.

[SpeedySPCFan]

Bombs are very powerful in stage portions, and you gain one every time you die. Also, extends are every 400,000 points (unlimited!)-- try not to waste them by being at full lives, since you don't get the bomb from dying. (The cap is 6 lives and 5 bombs.)

Combining those two, bombing for lives is possible, and can trivialize the stages if done well. If the orb isn't obstructed at the start of a stage, it'll land near the left edge-- if you slide it left from there, then immediately bomb, it should bounce off you during the bomb, chaining most of the tiles in the stage for an extra life or two.

(Meanwhile, if the orb starts by going into a teleporter, you can simply bomb right away, though teleporter randomness means you likely won't get as good a chain.)

Oh, and sliding gives you the best control over the orb, since it always moves in the same trajectory. So against stationary bosses, you can slide repeatedly to bounce the orb into them over and over (suiciding when needed, since bombing the stages gives plenty of lives, and the bosses can be pretty cheap if you actually try to dodge them).

Note that bombing bosses deals 1 damage only if you have no remaining lives, so it's better to save bombs against bosses until you have either 5 bombs or no lives, whichever comes first.

I hope this helps.

Thank you very much! I was in the same mindset that I had with the other Touhou games that bombing isn't good, I suppose that's different. I'll keep these in mind when I attempt to play the game.

[Nolegs the Cat]

bombing isn't good

Erm...
What?

No, no no. Unless you're going for a no bomb clear don't get into that mentality.
It may sound like you'd improve better, but it'd just serve to prevent you from doing the later parts of the game unless you're already more than good enough to 1cc that game on said difficulty as it is.
Which prevents you from pushing yourself and improving, for the most part.
Just use stage practice...

Erm, so. EoSD stage 3.
Not Meiling, the stage. I'm waaay too inconsistent with it as it is on Lunatic...
Ignoring the Midboss (randumb nonspell and nothing to the spellcard beyond 'gitgud'), anyone know any good routes for the second half of the stage?

[Karisa]

Thank you very much! I was in the same mindset that I had with the other Touhou games that bombing isn't good, I suppose that's different. I'll keep these in mind when I attempt to play the game.

I think you were in the mindset that dying isn't good, actually. Which is normal in most of the games, but HRtP is different.

HRtP is one of the only games in the series where dying can be better than bombing at times-- there's no direct benefit to using up your bombs before dying (unless you're at the bomb cap), and unlimited extends mean you can recover your lives by bombing stages.

In the rest of the series (aside from GFW), since your bombs are either reset by dying (in most) or restored if below 2-3 (in MoF to TD), using up all bombs before dying is better for survival.

[Pakken11]

@Cat: "gitgud" *shot*

(I'm assuming you're playing on Lunatic)

It's usually easiest to stay near the middle during the kunai lines, unless you memorize how and where the diagonals fall. You can also kill some of the kunai fairies in the middle to try and give yourself some more room.
Also, try to kill the "circle-spawners" as much as possible to lessen the RNG-ness - they're usually the issue for me due to kunai lines restricting movement (the circles can wall you if you're unlucky).
The spinners(?) are the same as the beginning of the stage, so just stream them. If you're bold enough you can try turning when you get to the edge, but beware of the slower trailing kunai wave.
Then finally, kill one of the circle spawners, then move to the middle. There should be space with two lines of kunai on each side - if you're fast enough/high power enough/proper character you should be able to kill at least one of the kunai fairies to make some more space.

[FamilyTeam]

For Touhou 12, is aiming to get as many lives as possible with Marisa any good instead of bombs?
Analyzing my 1CC of 10D, which, sure, was 2 years ago so it might not be the best reference, you can see I get plenty of bombs, but to be honest, I'm not sure if they did me any good, so since I have the option to choose what I'll get in TH12, I wonder if investing on lives is a better idea.

EDIT:

In Mountain of Faith, when you use Marisa B (Piercing Type), if your power level is 3.00 - 3.95, when you attack a midboss or boss unfocused, their health bar rapidly drops down. Because of this, the opponent is usually defeated before a single bullet even reaches Marisa. Some fans consider this cheating.

Source.
So, can I do this or can I not?

[SomeGuy712x]

Note that bombing bosses deals 1 damage only if you have no remaining lives, so it's better to save bombs against bosses until you have either 5 bombs or no lives, whichever comes first.

Actually, unless I'm mistaken, bombing bosses when you're on your life in HRtP deals 2 damage to them, not 1.

[Mr Jovial]

For Touhou 12, is aiming to get as many lives as possible with Marisa any good instead of bombs?
Analyzing my 1CC of 10D, which, sure, was 2 years ago so it might not be the best reference, you can see I get plenty of bombs, but to be honest, I'm not sure if they did me any good, so since I have the option to choose what I'll get in TH12, I wonder if investing on lives is a better idea.

In terms of numbers, you need 4 life pieces per extend (2 UFOs) and 3 bomb pieces per bomb (you get 4 bombs per 3 UFOs). Take it up to 6 UFOs, you can either have 3 extends or 8 bombs. The extends option gives you 6 bombs and 3 screen clears via dying (though the power losses kind of make this a bad thing). It's mostly personal preference, if you were to use every bomb before dying then you'd want to get exclusively green UFOs. Personally, I always went for red until stage 6. On stage 6, if I was 1 UFO away from an extend I would get that extend then spend the rest of the stage getting bombs to spam on Byakuren. I guess in general, you should get lives early on and get bombs (and 1 red UFO if required) on stage 6. When you switch from reds to greens is up to you, I'd suggest switching on either stage 5 or stage 6 though.

EDIT:Source.
So, can I do this or can I not?

Erm, I don't understand how this relates to the UFO situation (or if it was even supposed to) but that bug still works in MoF unless you use the fix that the vync patch lets you use.

[FamilyTeam]

Okay, okay, thanks for evertyhing!
Just...

Erm, I don't understand how this relates to the UFO situation (or if it was even supposed to) but that bug still works in MoF unless you use the fix that the vync patch lets you use.

I'm currently playing IN, MOF and UFO, and that question was directed at MOF. Still, thanks for answering.

[Nolegs the Cat]

Okay, okay, thanks for evertyhing!
Just...I'm currently playing IN, MOF and UFO, and that question was directed at MOF. Still, thanks for answering.

Honestly, I'd recommend against using MarisaBugged. I won't judge you for it, but it does cheapen the achievement for the player - and you managed PCB, you can certaintly manage MoF with a normal shot-type with some effort, given MoF on normal is easier than PCB is on normal.

And if you need help, you can always ask us!

By the way, the only laser to actually experience the glitch is the middle laser. The outer ones do normal damage.

@Cat: "gitgud" *shot*

*lowers gun*

(I'm assuming you're playing on Lunatic)

the stage. I'm waaay too inconsistent with it as it is on Lunatic...

:V

It's usually easiest to stay near the middle during the kunai lines, unless you memorize how and where the diagonals fall. You can also kill some of the kunai fairies in the middle to try and give yourself some more room.

Hmm... noted. Thanks! :3

I assume by 'spinner' you mean the spinning things that throw the aimed Kunai circles, but what do you mean by 'circle spawners'?
The same spinning enemies? the enemies that shoot the random white bullets near the end of the stage?

[FamilyTeam]

Honestly, I'd recommend against using MarisaBugged. I won't judge you for it, but it does cheapen the achievement for the player - and you managed PCB, you can certaintly manage MoF with a normal shot-type with some effort, given MoF on normal is easier than PCB is on normal.

After I recover, I'm gonna experiment with it and see how broken it is. If I do see that it's really broken, then I'll probably avoid it.

O-O-oh, okay.
As a programmer, I seriosuly wonder how ZUN let a bug this big and this blatant slip on by. Maybe actually testing your shit before releasing it is old fashioned?

[Mr Jovial]

O-O-oh, okay.

Yeah, I heard it was a misplaced decimal point so that laser actually deals 10x the damage it should :x

EDIT:
Completely unrelated to the above, does Shou have some logic to her movement during "Aura of Justice"? I feel like she's constantly moving away from me which makes dealing damage a pain because of how restrictive the attack is.

[Romantique Tp]

As a programmer, I seriosuly wonder how ZUN let a bug this big and this blatant slip on by. Maybe actually testing your shit before releasing it is old fashioned?

Maybe he actually knows how to play meaning he would barely spend any time at 3.00 power and never notice something is off!?

[FamilyTeam]

Maybe he actually knows how to play meaning he would barely spend any time at 3.00 power and never notice something is off!?

Well, he probably doesn't test the games by just playing Loonie mode and destroying it like it's nothing. ...Well, I hope he doesn't test it like that, that'd be pretty freaking irresponsible  :V
I wonder what was his reaction after the community found out about this...

[Pakken11]

@Cat: Yeah, the white circles. Spinner = aimed kunai.

[FamilyTeam]

I decided to try out Marisa Bugged to see it in action myself...
My reaction.
Anyway, yeah, it breaks the entire game. Anyway, quick question about MOF: Do the bombs deal any damage towards enemies? I used plenty, but I really didn't notice them killing fairies on their own.

[Nolegs the Cat]

I decided to try out Marisa Bugged to see it in action myself...
My reaction.
Anyway, yeah, it breaks the entire game. Anyway, quick question about MOF: Do the bombs deal any damage towards enemies? I used plenty, but I really didn't notice them killing fairies on their own.

Yes, they do deal damage to enemies. A fair amount of it, actually. 680 - ~1100 for Marisa, 650 - 830 for Reimu.
Min damage is the sphere not overlapping with an enemy at all (so using it in the top right corner pretty much), top is the enemy being in the bomb sphere the entire time.
Unlike most games, these bombs get the same nonspell damage multiplier as your shots do so they're really good for killing nonspells.
Overall, fairly powerful bombs.

[FamilyTeam]

Woah, thanks, man! Thanks for always being helpful!