I am not sure if there is some sort of cultural gap here and I don't mean to be an apologist or anything; it is just that my background revolves quite extensively around knowledges of Buddhism practice due to my family sect... so pardon me if my stances and interpretation regarding these practicing matters are at times... peculiar
>Of course she does. By listing a bunch of precepts that they apparently swore to follow, she creates her expectations of them, and then she defends those expectations. Perhaps not all of them to the letter, but she clearly believes that they are actually training as she describes; otherwise she wouldn't even be surprised.
She never even said they sworn to anything. In the sense of Buddhism, all precepts are a guidelines or as quoted "training wheels", not a strict objective morality list on what you all need to fulfill to be certified a Buddhist. To simply "strive" and "try" to achieve these goals then you are already walking on the path. The keyword here is to try... through the journey of attaining those virtues. To say if they failed to follow it mean they are not training, that is a false dichotomy. Case in point, even in our world's reowned Buddhist practitioners are still worry and still gone astray from these virtues times to times through daily lives... but acknowledging it and trying to follow it is the key. Let alone youkais who have spent their beings following their own raw instincts and natural purposes. Just because they violate those codes doesn't mean they don't know their end goals and try to attain these virtues (what practicing are all about).
You're also understating how little of their training they follow. As I said before, they don't follow anything substantial out of what Byakuren lists. It isn't that they can't hold all of the virtues, it's that they seemingly can't hold any.
Same as above. What measures are to define "to follow"? The only one where the Youkais obviously violated are discipline in consuming and indulging in desires behaviors.
What? She never says anything about UFO's events, which were nearly three years before SoPM. She just says previously / recently / just a while ago. Regardless, that doesn't even matter. Byakuren says her youkai are apparently putting the concept of "not attacking people" into practice, yet they aren't. She says they vow not to kill, steal, lie or drink, yet they do (or try). And obviously they lie, if Byakuren believes them.
Regarding the "gift of fearlessness and Marisa being attacked though... yes this was indeed my bad, I mistook the timeline gap between UFO and SoPM quite a bit so truly my sincerest apologies for that. Anyhow, let's approach this in a different perspective if we were to use recent time as a context:
Hijiri's main youkai disciples are the one who reside at her temple (named within the story); but it was made clear in SoPM that there are an extensive amount of Youkai who also frequently approach the temple to listen to her sutra or partake to her teachings; and it was also stated some of these youkai are with the intention of merely utilizing the temple as a feasting ground. This would fall in line with how Marisa claims to be attacked by Youkai when she visits the temple. In my previous argument I have made the comparison of how Zun referencing real life temple issues through the Myouren temple, and this also hold true in our world temple as well where there are plenty of those participate within temple ground for unsavory preying. But Marisa utilizing these occurrences of her being attack by temple goers as the mean to dismiss Byakuren claim of what her disciples "try" to practice would be unfair. Hijiri can't possibly micro-manage all that is within and around her temple grounds with the amount of those who frequents her temple.
And again, the youkai are fine; youkai are youkai and everyone but Byakuren expects them to behave this way. The "in-training" is her excusing herself, not excusing her disciples. Does she intend to discipline them for straying, or does she want to suppress criticism for them straying? You can't have both. Byakuren says that they swear by these precepts, and she says that they should be punished, and yet excuses their behaviour because she doesn't want to look like a fool for being the one responsible for their training. She is explaining what they're apparently supposed to be doing in their training, but they don't follow it, so it looks like a waste of time to everyone else. Byakuren makes excuses for them so she doesn't look bad, not so that the others think her disciples act, uh, exactly how they already know they act.
Again, that's not how Buddhism works, you don't swear by any precepts and Byakuren never make any claim of how her disciples swear by these precepts either. Regarding whether who she was excusing using the line "in-training", it can be interpreted both way. Hijiri say they are in-training so they can't follow these precepts fully yet... this is entirely fair in Buddhism concept as just because they can't follow the precepts doesn't mean they are not practicing Buddhism, but rather them failing to follow precepts are all within the path of practice. Like stated, in our world, practitioners accidentally led astray by the heat of the moment and their desires all the time... but this is all fair in the path to strive to improve. Her excuses are simply explaining things for what it is... and regardless, any explanation can be interpreted as excuses. Whether she will make her disciples pay repentance for their misdeeds or not, that aren't stated within the text, but there is no reason to assume why not. She never make a claim of "they did no wrong", all she did was explaining the reasons for why things happen that way (they are in-training).
This isn't inflammatory or insulting... Regardless, this quote is irrelevant to the section we're talking about and I'm not sure why you brought it up.
It is inflammatory and insulting, within the whole tea session where this was repeated a lot at Hijiri along with other snide remarks regarding Buddhism, and Hijiri later did have to go out of her way to refute how those actions are "because of the immaturity of the user" (can't remember exact quote). Anyway, I brought it up since within the section we have been discussing about, aside from umbrella statement regarding of Buddhism; all she said was a bit at the end was the Nyuudo going to party (Kogasa is not even a part of the temple and she still mistakenly include her in).. but the only relevant statement of Miko was repeating what others have said.
It's written to emphasize that she thinks she knows how they behave, and then demonstrate that she's really the only one that doesn't. This is her duty! This is what she's apparently dedicating her life to, yet she doesn't want to accept that her methods are flawed.
...you are probably already sick of me repeating "Actually in a Buddhism sense..." so I am just going to say that her goals are to teaches knowledge. Buddhism ain't a religion of objective commandments but a guidelines on how to live in a way that minimise suffering in lives (basic course at least). She teaches these Youkai the code on how to lives and they try to follow it... and just because they are shown lose to the temptation of desires doesn't mean they are not trying to follow it (in that regard all temple's monk methods are flawed since this is pretty much mirroring real life).
Say you are a parent. You make it your duty to teach your kid right from wrong, and specifically teach them why hitting people is wrong and that they shouldn't. Then you find out from their school that they've been hitting other kids. You also find out they hit other kids at daycare, and at the playground. Somehow, basically everyone knows but you. Then, instead of accepting your failure to teach them not to hit and changing your strategy, you make excuses for your kid and say they just can't help it. Why did everybody know but you? Were you not watching them? Sure they can do stuff behind your back, but it's still ultimately your responsibility that they didn't learn. You failed at your duty, and that in itself isn't a bad thing. What's bad is that you don't accept that you failed, and instead of doing something you made excuses and refused to take responsibility, despite telling yourself it was your duty to teach them. Then, you don't even change your approach: you just punish them, tell them the same thing and go "yeah they won't do it again now!". No this is a bad idea that doesn't help anyone and is only lying to yourself.
Like said, she never ever make a claim of excuses saying they can't help it. The statement is, the are in-training; essentially: "I am STILL correcting them" (present tense). She never deny she has failed but all she said is that this is a work in progress that would take time to fix... and yes, as stressed before, it is completely reasonable for these behaviours to take a long time to change especially for Youkai whose existence are defined with sole purposes and raw instinct; and thus "in-training so please pardon their mistakes"; and not "they are what they are, please ignore them".
Clearly not, since she had no response to it. She's right; forbearance is something we all have to do regardless, and diligence is redundant if you're already supposed to be training.
Then isn't that great? Marisa says everyone does it anyway so that would mean the Youkai does hold some of these values, as opposed to, per quoted: " it's that they seemingly can't hold any".
...but the problem here is Marisa saying how that virtues is insignificant since everyone practices it so the Youkai doing it ain't really something special. Well, let's say in a Christian (yes, Christian) perspectives, using the 10 commandments; a lot of them are generic stuffs other people do anyway... but that doesn't mean it doesn't hold meaning because everyone does it. Regarding those virtues marisa says everyone possessed by default though... then yes, everyone possess it... but the idea is to what extent is the limit and threshold of these virtues a Buddhist practitioner would need to have (and while Marisa says everyone has it so it's not special, believe it or not but a lot of people seemingly possess a shocking low limit regarding these standards). Yes, these virtues overlap with normal people's living way... but the point of buddhism is how to live wisely... then of course some of the virtues would fall in life with the logic of common sense on what is good.
This was another problem with her practice, though. More problematic youkai are the ones she should be targeting in order to rehabilitate. You can't argue that her disciples are better than the youkai who she wouldn't even accept into the temple and therefore her practice is effective; that's awful reasoning. They didn't have to do anything to be more hospitable.
But you were the one making the claim of "Byakuren's given no indication that her disciples are any better off than other youkai"... and for that statement I had to make distinction has to be made regarding how her disciples are indeed better than the common youkai
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All and all, please pardon me if I come off as an apologist or playing the advocate to any particular target that everyone is against here. These are just interpretations I made base on the personal reflection of what I see within the Buddhism scenes that are prevalent not just within my upbringings but throughout the world... and they are a pretty good reflection match to what I see portraying within the Myouren temple. From other people's views these occurrences can be interpreted into a lot of things by different people with different views; and due to my upbringings I shall interpret it base on the view of how these values have guided: "Giving the benefits of doubts and faith"
p.s - Particularly apologies for the UFO mistake, I goof'd that one up
