Koishi: Yeah, sorry, but I have never understood the fascination with this one. A character with no conscious thoughts, no motivations of her own, who is literally completely forgettable to anyone who meets her. What is she for? Even her color scheme suggests she was a rushed afterthought tossed into SA because ZUN needed an Extra boss.
Koishi:Even her color scheme suggests she was a rushed afterthought tossed into SA because ZUN needed an Extra boss.Koishi's colors turn into Satori's when inverted though, that was very purposefully done.
Mr. Tengukami, you may dislike me for this, but as I may have expressed in the past, my least favorite is:
The Tengu reporter, Aya Shameimaru.
My least favourite character by far is Reimu Hakurei. As I've said before, I hate her attitude towards the youkai. She is nasty, prejudice and selfish. She broke up the debate in Symposium of Post Mysticism and did so with anti-youkai speeches. She made it clear that she was doing it so that people would come to her shrine - therefore out of her own selfishness. She has clear prejudice against the youkai which I hate.
I dislike Aya Shameimaru but, due to this filtered internet stopping me from reading any doujins, I've forgotten why. Possibilities are her bias in Touhou Tag Dream (which technically isn't a valid reason because it's fan made) or my dislike of journalists due to bias - I dislike them in the same way that people dislike bankers.
I don't feel as passionate about hating these characters as I usually do unfortunately. I need access to doujins again.
Most people I know who like Koishi like her through Satori. On her own she's intentionally a non-entity, but through the lens of Satori she becomes this incredibly tragic figure. That's appealing in the same way Yuyuko is (ditzy ghost + tragic past = interesting conflict).This is something I hadn't considered; that she's a literary facet of Satori's life (reflected in the aforementioned color scheme flip). Yuyuko's story is just batshit nuts - and pretty chilling, her being oblivious to the horrible truth about herself. Koishi, too, is oblivious. Fortunately, she can't feel anything about her situation one way or the other, because she has no conscious mind with which to care about it. That's what bugs me about her, it's her emptiness. I can feel for Satori having to get hit with this, and I'll even admit that her involvement in HM is pretty neat, but - like you pointed out with Satori - only through the lens of the others. Koishi herself remains her la-la mindless, thought-free, emotions-free, plot device for other characters, but not so much as a character in herself.
This is something I hadn't considered; that she's a literary facet of Satori's life (reflected in the aforementioned color scheme flip). Yuyuko's story is just batshit nuts - and pretty chilling, her being oblivious to the horrible truth about herself. Koishi, too, is oblivious. Fortunately, she can't feel anything about her situation one way or the other, because she has no conscious mind with which to care about it. That's what bugs me about her, it's her emptiness. I can feel for Satori having to get hit with this, and I'll even admit that her involvement in HM is pretty neat, but - like you pointed out with Satori - only through the lens of the others. Koishi herself remains her la-la mindless, thought-free, emotions-free, plot device for other characters, but not so much as a character in herself.
Canonically, Reimu is neutral about youkai (ie: she doesn't think of humans and youkai as any different). Which leads to the interesting implication that she only fights them out of duty, and only when she remembers her duty. So really it's not her fault, it's just what the villagers expect from her. You can see in the manga and whatnot that she always has a bunch of youkai hanging out at her fairs and the humans of the village don't trust her because of it. Because of all her youkai friends she's considered the "youkai infested shrine".
Of course, if you ask people like Akyuu and Yukari, or even Keine, maintaining the proper amount of antagonism between humans and youkai is essential to the survival of Gensokyo. It's just sort of a metaphysical thing.
With that in mind, I'd like to throw Byakuren into the hate circle. Well, honestly I don't mind her as a deeply flawed character, but basically she's a vain, arrogant, selfish idiot who hides between a twisted veneer of religion. Truly a fallen monk. She was afraid of death so she became a youkai magician, and the very first thing she did was make herself young and beautiful. Yeah, apparently being immortal wasn't enough for her, she also needed to be young (which is not an automatic part of the magician kit: she had to go out of her way to research the body transformation magic). So she's totally vain, and even when she had a change of heart and decided to help out the youkai she still kept up the act. Heck, she wouldn't have been caught if people hadn't noticed her eternal youth. She could've "helped" more youkai!
Not that her help is actually worth anything, because she's deeply ignorant about how youkai work. All her followers are either completely ignoring her teachings or suffering through an existential crisis like Kyouko. And, well, the ultimate goal of converting a youkai to Buddhism is to kill them. That's just how it works. They lose their purpose and accept their own death. That's the only result that can happen, because, well, that's what Buddhism is all about. She's no better than the vengeful spirits youkai are so afraid of: to change a youkai is to kill it. And yet she has the nerve to tell other people how to do things! She's basically a cult leader.
Not to mention she's just generally kind of shifty. She tried to seal Miko without even knowing what she was, and Miko was certainly convinced not to conquer the world pretty easily with dialog.
She may be expected to act that way but quite often it seems that she actually is that way. She beat up Tojiko for no reason. She's really nasty to the weaker youkai - such as Kogasa. Being the balancer between human and youkai may be like being immigration officer at an airport in which people think you're racist but Reimu has shown many times that she actually is. I'd put her "acceptance" of youkai down as laziness. She's clearly anti-youkai because she is and not because her job requires it.
I'd also counter your claims about Byakuren but I need to see your sources.I can accept that in her early days she was vain, arrogant and selfish but I think you've completely misunderstood what she's teaching. She's using Buddhism as a way to try and teach youkai self-preservation. What she's essentially trying to do is make sure that "maintaining the proper amount of antagonism between humans and youkai" is not the only road to go down. Changing the fact that youkai are fuelled by human fear is an essential thing to do when trying to create a proper peace. Is a good deed not still a good deed if done for selfish reasons regardless of how effective it is? She wants to create a society where Youkai are not oppressed (and at the same time neither are humans) and she's actually trying something.
So you say you want to exterminate youkai and create a human-only world. But you truly desire a peace that doesn't require violence, don't you?which I think is really important in Reimu's characterization. My interpretation that she's really putting on a tough exterior to deal with all the troublemakers, but she would prefer peace to that. (You could potentially attribute her desire for peace to her laziness, if you wanted.) I also agree with Clarste in that she seems especially duty-bound--i.e. she does and thinks things because that's how they're supposed to be--and I really wish I could remember a source that I based my interpretation on (either CoLA or WaHH).
With that in mind, I'd like to throw Byakuren into the hate circle. Well, honestly I don't mind her as a deeply flawed character, but basically she's a vain, arrogant, selfish idiot who hides between a twisted veneer of religion. Truly a fallen monk. She was afraid of death so she became a youkai magician, and the very first thing she did was make herself young and beautiful. Yeah, apparently being immortal wasn't enough for her, she also needed to be young (which is not an automatic part of the magician kit: she had to go out of her way to research the body transformation magic). So she's totally vain, and even when she had a change of heart and decided to help out the youkai she still kept up the act. Heck, she wouldn't have been caught if people hadn't noticed her eternal youth. She could've "helped" more youkai!
Not that her help is actually worth anything, because she's deeply ignorant about how youkai work. All her followers are either completely ignoring her teachings or suffering through an existential crisis like Kyouko. And, well, the ultimate goal of converting a youkai to Buddhism is to kill them. That's just how it works. They lose their purpose and accept their own death. That's the only result that can happen, because, well, that's what Buddhism is all about. She's no better than the vengeful spirits youkai are so afraid of: to change a youkai is to kill it. And yet she has the nerve to tell other people how to do things! She's basically a cult leader.
Not to mention she's just generally kind of shifty. She tried to seal Miko without even knowing what she was, and Miko was certainly convinced not to conquer the world pretty easily with dialog.
Anyway, this is just how I see her from just the canon. Obviously, others can agree and disagree. But I'll listen to what you have to say about it.
Also, another reason I decided to reply you, Clarste. You "liked" Byakuren, didn't you? It's just that what happened in TD, SoPM, and HM, not to mention several stories of how youkai works in WaHH and FS, kinda disappoint you. Correct me if I'm wrong though, and I apologize if that's not the case.
I don't dislike her, but I do find Mokou to be a bit alienating. A large part is undoubtedly culture shock, but I honestly can't wrap my head around wanting to kill someone for a slight against a member of your family. Especially when that slight was catching the guy cheating at a contest.
Canonically, Reimu is neutral about youkai (ie: she doesn't think of humans and youkai as any different). Which leads to the interesting implication that she only fights them out of duty, and only when she remembers her duty. So really it's not her fault, it's just what the villagers expect from her. You can see in the manga and whatnot that she always has a bunch of youkai hanging out at her fairs and the humans of the village don't trust her because of it. Because of all her youkai friends she's considered the "youkai infested shrine".
Of course, if you ask people like Akyuu and Yukari, or even Keine, maintaining the proper amount of antagonism between humans and youkai is essential to the survival of Gensokyo. It's just sort of a metaphysical thing.
With that in mind, I'd like to throw Byakuren into the hate circle. Well, honestly I don't mind her as a deeply flawed character, but basically she's a vain, arrogant, selfish idiot who hides between a twisted veneer of religion. Truly a fallen monk. She was afraid of death so she became a youkai magician, and the very first thing she did was make herself young and beautiful. Yeah, apparently being immortal wasn't enough for her, she also needed to be young (which is not an automatic part of the magician kit: she had to go out of her way to research the body transformation magic). So she's totally vain, and even when she had a change of heart and decided to help out the youkai she still kept up the act. Heck, she wouldn't have been caught if people hadn't noticed her eternal youth. She could've "helped" more youkai!
Not that her help is actually worth anything, because she's deeply ignorant about how youkai work. All her followers are either completely ignoring her teachings or suffering through an existential crisis like Kyouko. And, well, the ultimate goal of converting a youkai to Buddhism is to kill them. That's just how it works. They lose their purpose and accept their own death. That's the only result that can happen, because, well, that's what Buddhism is all about. She's no better than the vengeful spirits youkai are so afraid of: to change a youkai is to kill it. And yet she has the nerve to tell other people how to do things! She's basically a cult leader.
Not to mention she's just generally kind of shifty. She tried to seal Miko without even knowing what she was, and Miko was certainly convinced not to conquer the world pretty easily with dialog.
Suwako: She might be an important part of the MoF story, but my gawd, that hat. Even by ZUN standards that hat is ridiculous. She looks more like a novelty bobblehead you'd put on a dashboard than some powerful goddess.
Koishi: Yeah, sorry, but I have never understood the fascination with this one. A character with no conscious thoughts, no motivations of her own, who is literally completely forgettable to anyone who meets her. What is she for? Even her color scheme suggests she was a rushed afterthought tossed into SA because ZUN needed an Extra boss.
Tenshi: Bored rich kid who, unlike many others, did nothing to get as powerful as she is but be born into privilege. She's so privileged, in fact, that her own privilege bores her. Relieves said boredom by making life harder for people who actually work for a living. Tenshi is the 1%.
Sanae: I tried liking her. I really did. But she's an airhead that has no place among incident resolvers. Most of the time, she only acts in the interests of her shrine, not to help Gensokyo as a whole. Of course, this might be understandable, her being a shrine maiden. But she's so easily influenced by others it's like she can't think for herself. Mostly it's by Kanako and Suwako, but there's also her UFO route A bad ending.She essentially gets brainwashed by Byakuren. Not in a magical or some other fantastic way. The realistic way, by words alone.Frankly, if her goddesses were to do something that would outright ruin Gensokyo, I can easily picture her going along with it. She's their shrine maiden and all, but I would expect more from someone who is also a living god herself. WaHH chapter 19 just nailed things further for me (petty revenge is SO constructive, good girl). To be fair, she does have her redeeming moments, but she's not someone I'd entrust Gensokyo's fate to.
This is a common misconception. Mokou doesn't actually have that much of a grudge against Kaguya, she's just lonely and wants to keep the only connection she has to her past life strong. If you read her chapter in CiLR it feels like she manage to forgive/forget Kaguya within a few weeks even, but then her life was changed forever by finding the elixir. Which she drank in a moment of weakness, from a simple desire for immortality, and then regret it. She also killed a man who treated her well, and honestly it seems like that had way more influence on her than Kaguya ever did. Her spellcards like "Honest Man's Death" and "Iwakasa's Curse" imply she's still thinking about that, and the ending of her CiLR chapter has her thinking about seeking closure for that part of her life.
TL;DR she doesn't actually care about Kaguya that much, except as a current day friend/rival.
I did read and understand that, which is largely why I don't actually dislike her. Her learning from her mistakes and fighting Kaguya as a way to pass away eternity is fine. It's the initial grudge against Kaguya that drove her to that situation in the first place that I don't understand. She didn't initially follow the soldiers up the mountain out of a wish for immortality. It was the best she could do at the moment to spite Kaguya. From my point of view, it's very difficult to understand how someone could acquire enough of a grudge to go through that much effort over something like your parent's reputation.
Reimu has also had her soul read by Komachi and her brainwaves read by Reisen. They agree that Reimu is an innocent soul incapable of hating anyone, she's just kind of bipolar.
As for laziness... remember how people have said Reimu reminds them of a hermit? How the actual hermits mistook her for a Taoist? How when she dodges an attack she claims she stood still while it bent around her, and she throws her homing amulets in straight lines? That's wu wei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei) - creating the most effective result by expending the least possible effort.
Medicine bugs me because she's such a non-entity.
I think Rumia and Medicine are at the bottom of my list.
@Tengukami: It's OK, I know Sanae has reasons to act the way she does, and she IS a well-written character in her own right. I just don't like what she is, circumstances or not. Eccentric outsiders that don't know the way of the land have no place in affairs that concern its fate.
Can I just ask when these happened?
In all seriousness, I don't really see anything about Futo. She seems very out of her time, kind of stubborn and at times, a bit dumb. Her inability to adapt to modern Gensokyo isn't helping her case either. The ye olde English/archaic Japanese doesn't do it for me either. Her following Miko is almost religious (heh), and at times as easy to manipulate as any other peon. In the end, her existence seems almost comical.IMO she's anything but dumb, being a Taoist and all, just painfully clueless about modernity. That aside, I pretty much agree with you.
Rumia embodies the fear of the dark and... is little more than a generic youkai with no purpose in life. Even though she has an article about her in BAiJR, it doesn't say anything other than that, so her "generic-ness" must be the whole joke about her. People usually like her either because of being intrigued by her mysterious hair amulet (see EX-Rumia), or because of her being the only youkai on screen that is outright stated to eat humans.
In all seriousness, I don't really see anything about Futo. She seems very out of her time, kind of stubborn and at times, a bit dumb. Her inability to adapt to modern Gensokyo isn't helping her case either. The ye olde English/archaic Japanese doesn't do it for me either. Her following Miko is almost religious (heh), and at times as easy to manipulate as any other peon. In the end, her existence seems almost comical.
Yukari domestically abuses Ran.Pretty much this, too, is always something in the back of my mind where Yukari's concerned. She really is completely self-interested, and has no compunction with tableflipping people's lives just for larfs. What kind of person does this? And, best part of all, everyone's stuck with her, forever apparently. As a character it makes her interesting to watch in action, and you could argue she gives many Gensokyans a purpose in life. But on the other hand, so does Vladimir Putin, so seriously, Yukari is definitely among the worst.
Yukari is worst.
That is all. :colbert:
Nitori: Her suddenly turning out to be a massive jerk in HM dialogues (http://pastebin.com/7nH2DmWe). That is all.
Reimu: We're in the middle of a battle for popularity. Joining up with a youkai racketeer like you would be suicide.
Nitori: That's some worthless popularity, if you can lose it just like that. If that's the best your religion can do, you should probably just give up.
Nitori: Her suddenly turning out to be a massive jerk in HM dialogues (http://pastebin.com/7nH2DmWe). That is all.Nah, Nitori had hints at jerkishness from her first appearance. It's just that she also tends to suck up to anyone she thinks is dangerous.
Nitori: You're an energetic human. Kappa and humans have been sworn friends since ancient times, so let me tell you something.
Marisa: For the loser to claim to be a sworn friend is a little strange.
Nitori: Recently, a threatening god has taken up residence at the top of the mountain. Thanks to that, us kappa and tengu have been bothered.
Marisa: What are you saying? You want me to go solve it?
Nitori: Ah, I've said too much, don't worry about it.
Nitori: Hey human! Kappa and humans have been sworn friends since ancient times, so let me tell you something.And just look at how she acts in Subterranean Animism (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Subterranean_Animism/Story/Marisa_and_Nitori%27s_Scenario).
Reimu: Sworn friends? Are you sure you haven't mistaken an old enemy for a friend?
Nitori: It's true that there's been a restless god on top of the mountain lately. Are you going to go beat her?
Reimu: Well, what a surprising place to get such great information. To tell you the truth, I'd forgotten why I'd come all the way up here.
Nitori: Ah, I can't believe it. Humans are so flaky. I knew I should have asked the tengu about this instead.
Nitori: Her suddenly turning out to be a massive jerk in HM dialogues (http://pastebin.com/7nH2DmWe). That is all.The only time Nitori wasn't an obvious jerk was in her MoF dialogue, which is one of the least content-packed of her appearances. So yeah.
And she's a borderline sue. She is literally undefeatable in the lore because LOLFANTASYHEAVEN and 'If you kill me you're all screwed'. She basically can't lose if she fights seriously.The rest of the complaints are fine, but this is never relevant in the universe at all and it always confuses me when people bring stuff like this up. Having all these outrageously powerful beings all together in a world where nobody ever fights seriously or uses the full extent of their powers to do almost anything is sort of the point. Having characters like this is spectacularly not-Sue-like and wonderful here because the setting invalidates it completely and is really one of the core reasons the characters are remotely acceptable. One of the reasons people harp on Yorihime is because even in-context she had Sue-like characteristics, unlike the other characters participating that just had run-of-the-mill cheat powers (except even that isn't really all that important because SSiB was all about superpowers trying to trump everyone else while completely disregarding their respective abilities; see central point again).
Yukari domestically abuses Ran.Ran's entirely fine with it, though.
Yukari is worst.
That is all. :colbert:
Pretty much this, too, is always something in the back of my mind where Yukari's concerned. She really is completely self-interested, and has no compunction with tableflipping people's lives just for larfs. What kind of person does this? And, best part of all, everyone's stuck with her, forever apparently. As a character it makes her interesting to watch in action, and you could argue she gives many Gensokyans a purpose in life. But on the other hand, so does Vladimir Putin, so seriously, Yukari is definitely among the worst.This is not really true.
Every touhou is wonderful and precious and I couldn't stand to lose a single one.Listen to this man, he has goodness in his heart
Wait, I thought of one I don't like. Kasen's pet dragon.
Back in the day I violently insisted that there was no way that Hong Meiling was a dragon, because the old canon had hyped them up to cosmic levels of importance. But now that one's been shown as a subordinate to another touhou, it means Meiling can be a dragon just fine, because dragons are as trivial as Rumia now, so whatever. Makes me look like a goddamn fool.
:colbert:
Pretty much this, too, is always something in the back of my mind where Yukari's concerned. She really is completely self-interested, and has no compunction with tableflipping people's lives just for larfs. What kind of person does this? And, best part of all, everyone's stuck with her, forever apparently. As a character it makes her interesting to watch in action, and you could argue she gives many Gensokyans a purpose in life. But on the other hand, so does Vladimir Putin, so seriously, Yukari is definitely among the worst.
What's interesting, but maybe to be expected, in this thread is how people are describing character traits that I agree with, but have a completely different emotional response to. Like Critz's take on Cirno. I agree that that's Cirno's behavior. I think it's what makes her endearing. But at the same time, stuff like Yukari's gleeful sociopathy is pretty indisputably terrible.
I guess she's sometimes dissappointed when other people don't even try to think about things (like when she goes from door to door in A Flower Blooming Violet and everyone just gives her really lazy answers when she asks if they know why the flowers are blooming) but that's more "sad" than "smug" (her own inner thoughts had her humbly thinking that she couldn't remember the reason, either).Also, when she asks Ran about the lunar cycle and just gets a completely literal
the Prismrivers definitely eat people
Just because she can doesn't mean she does that. As Tiamat explained, so far all instances of her messing with others usually had benevolent motives behind them that were big enough to justify her actions.
Serious question: what were the important motives behind SSiB, where Yukari's involvement is concerned?
...wat. Nope. Ghosts, phantoms and so on don't eat humans in Gensokyo. Unless you count feeding off their spirits and/or possession. Which Prismrivers don't do.
Like, at no point is Reimu considered undefeatable because "defeat" doesn't mean "defeat while everyone is putting their lives on the line and doing the most they possibly can to win", which is the only context where Fantasy Nature and the Barrier's stability become relevant. Fantasy Nature is explicitly beatable in modern Gensokyo and nobody ever wanted to kill the shrine maiden even before the Rules were put into play.
Reimu: Sorry, I only just realized it now, but I always wanted to say that... Anyway, that's not important right now! Mima!! You're the one who wrecked my shrine, aren't you!
Mima: Oh, who cares about some cheap shrine in the middle of nowhere? My goal is to exact revenge on the entire human race.
Orange: I'll bang, shoot, and pop your head off!
Yuuka: Don't think you'll have it easy because I just woke up. ♥ That is, if you want to live a little longer!!
I'll ignore MS because Makai =/= Gensokyo so they don't need to worry about murdering Reimu.Also do keep in mind that ZUN did state that the PC-98 stories are known to conflict with a lot of the Windows Canon, so whenever it does, to always take the Windows stories/settings as "more canon" and take the PC-98 settings with a grain of salt. Not to say these example are disproven (they could easily have their own reasons), but it does display contradictions to the current characters and Reimu's importance.
Sakuya: All hints considered, I cannot bring myself to give her the benefit of the doubt when it comes to being a serial killer. Funny enough, most people seem to consider that one of her main appeals, but for me neither being a killer nor her unbeatable superpower nor her zero known backstory and reason for resulting allegiance with a vampire over fellow humans do the trick. What remains is mostly a boring, overly loyal and obedient servant of SDM denizens, a goal-oriented and sometimes cruel exterminator with little emotions to spare towards anyone else (with a joke cracked once in a while) and conflicting characterization (being "perfect and elegant" on one hand, being a clumsy airhead on the other). Likewise, her looks are among Gensokyo's most uninspired, being nothing more than a typical maid attire and grayed out hair tied into a painfully antiquated hairdo. She's basically a less well-made Youmu for me. And finally, the fandom. God, the fandom - no other character has it worse, be it pads, lolicon, Meiling/Sanae abuse or being a psychopath in general.Now, except for the serial killer part which I never really thought about, I think in terms of character personality and design itself, I agree that she is the most boring and unappealing. As a maid she doesn't really stand out that much except for her knives and even then, I'm usually reminded of Ciel from Tsukihime rather than her own original idea. But I think a better example is being a second Yumeko. Although Yumeko is just as plain as well, I still think she stands out slightly more than Sakuya herself (probably the blonde hair).
An interesting perspective on SSiB. And very charitible towards Yukari. Not sure I agree, but that's a new POV anyway. Suffice to say that I try not to project intent in characters, whether malice or altruism. Besides intent mattering not ask much as the result.The Imperishable Night Incident was one of the few cases where Yukari stepped out of the shadows and tried to resolve an incident herself, and it's the only case where she thought it would take herself and Reimu working together to do it. So it's fair to say that Yukari takes Eirin extremely seriously.
Also do keep in mind that ZUN did state that the PC-98 stories are known to conflict with a lot of the Windows Canon, so whenever it does, to always take the Windows stories/settings as "more canon" and take the PC-98 settings with a grain of salt. Not to say these example are disproven (they could easily have their own reasons), but it does display contradictions to the current characters and Reimu's importance.Didn't ZUN say at one point in the PC-98 era that "Touhou is not a series" and the games aren't meant to have any real continuity between them?
Are Yuki and Mai really dead? I know we're dealing with a PC-98 game, but were Yuki and Mai from Mystic Square really killed? Looking in particular in the conversation when Lady Mima and Yuki are left... (sweat)...and gave this response
Basically, they're whatever-works types, so they might not be dead. I generally have no comment regarding the PC-98 games. Please ignore them just as one can ignore derivative works. :-)
An interesting perspective on SSiB. And very charitible towards Yukari. Not sure I agree, but that's a new POV anyway. Suffice to say that I try not to project intent in characters, whether malice or altruism. Besides intent mattering not ask much as the result.
Eirin took another drink.Also, while I agree with basically most of Tiamat's analysis, I still think Yuakari DOES have a darker side to her; her talk with Kasen on how humans in Gensokyo are there purely for the benefit of youkai comes to mind. All of her actions that seemingly favors humans take a different spin if you take that statement seriously, and there isn't really anything that would indicate you shouldn't.
There was no doubt about it. Whatever labor they went through to get this sake, it was no ordinary venture. This was not some cheap swill that businessmen would drink after hours, incomprehensible babble spilling from their mouths.
It was an exceedingly ancient sake that had been aging for over a thousand years in the Lunar Capital. Yes, it was likely sleeping even at the time when Eirin fled for Earth.
"Wh-What is this...?" Eirin was clearly shaken. She had shown composure without intending, meaning it was the moment Yukari had been waiting for to strike.
Eirin could never forget the taste of that sake. The purity that was impossible to obtain on the impure Earth, and the deep flavor that came from its millenium-long slumber.
"It must have been centuries since you left your hometown. I thought you were becoming distraught with homesickness, so I had some sake from the Lunar Capital prepared for you."
Yukari grinned.
That ominous smile left a deep scar in her mind, something she would never be able to forget. To make those who cannot die question the meaning of living. To make them fear the unknown, what they cannot understand.
That was the true intention behind Yukari's Second Lunar Invasion.
Just to reinforce Tiamat's answer:Also, while I agree with basically most of Tiamat's analysis, I still think Yuakari DOES have a darker side to her; her talk with Kasen on how humans in Gensokyo are there purely for the benefit of youkai comes to mind. All of her actions that seemingly favors humans take a different spin if you take that statement seriously, and there isn't really anything that would indicate you shouldn't.
Also, while I agree with basically most of Tiamat's analysis, I still think Yuakari DOES have a darker side to her;YES THIS IS ENTIRELY MY POINT. She isn't all good, and she isn't all bad. But the bad parts get to me. Let's not talk past each other here. Unless you have all been brainwashed by the Gap Youkai, and I wouldn't put it past her tbh.
Btw, Tengukami, you'd probably expect a response from me regarding your opinion on Koishi but your points are totally valid from what I read, but it's also my appeal to her.Yeah, that's what I like about this thread. There's little disagreement over how a character is; the disagreement is in our responses to how said character is. It's interesting to see what pushes people's buttons.
YES THIS IS ENTIRELY MY POINT. She isn't all good, and she isn't all bad. But the bad parts get to me. Let's not talk past each other here. Unless you have all been brainwashed by the Gap Youkai, and I wouldn't put it past her tbh.
Pretty much this, too, is always something in the back of my mind where Yukari's concerned. She really is completely self-interested, and has no compunction with tableflipping people's lives just for larfs.
There's this thing called "hyperbole", sometimes done for humoristic affect. A thousand apologies if my speaking in absolutes came across as completely serious in a thread with an OP that isn't even completely serious.
Sheesh!
Anyway, Seiga always felt more like fanon-Yukari than Yukari actually is. Pops out of holes in the wall to torment people for her own amusement.Plus she's associated with an airheaded undead who eats like a black hole, and came in the same game as a manipulative upper-class type filled with CHARISMA
Which is why she's my favorite character.
Plus she's associated with an airheaded undead who eats like a black hole, and came in the same game as a manipulative upper-class type filled with CHARISMA(who sparkles in the daylight even)and a powerful old woman who gets twitchy about her age. I swear, Ten Desires was one big in-joke. :V
I swear, Ten Desires was one big in-joke. :V
Yuuka:Agreed. I'm not really sure why I still like her as much as I do, since she doesn't appear to be a very likable character. I do think her level of hostility is hyped up a bit too much though, both in fanon (USC) and in PMiSS.
Well, honestly I still like her, I just wanted to play devil's advocate here. And I like her more as a flawed, relatable human than as the perfect saint a lot of fans tend to see her as, so I just wanted to open up that conversation. I think it's pretty easy to look at the same facts that I did and still love her. She's no Tenshi anyway.
Yukari
Plus she's associated with an airheaded undead who eats like a black hole, and came in the same game as a manipulative upper-class type filled with CHARISMAAlong an animal youkai who shouts one, long, ear-breaking word, and a wicked nympho who is like a certain troll in fanon(perhaps that's why she is what she is in the story).(who sparkles in the daylight even)and a powerful old woman who gets twitchy about her age. I swear, Ten Desires was one big in-joke. :V
While I really don't hate any one character in particular, as most everyone has some interesting aspect to them, I definitely don't see the appeal in Flandre, who has nothing going for her outside of 495-year-old innocently sadistic loli vampire. Just not my type of character, I suppose.Well there's her interactions with Remilia (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Bohemian_Archive_in_Japanese_Red/Flandre) which are kind of fun.
As far as those who have more fleshed-out personalities, Eirin comes off as kind of jerk, at least in her treatment of Reisen, or anyone who's not Kaguya, for that matter.To be fair, Reisen can be kind of an asshole when left without supervision. She's probably the most racist Moonperson we've seen, and the only member of Eientei who views Tewi as an underling rather than a landlord (thankfully for Reisen, Tewi seems to be amused rather than offended).
While I really don't hate any one character in particular, as most everyone has some interesting aspect to them, I definitely don't see the appeal in Flandre, who has nothing going for her outside of 495-year-old innocently sadistic loli vampire. Just not my type of character, I suppose.
As far as those who have more fleshed-out personalities, Eirin comes off as kind of jerk, at least in her treatment of Reisen, or anyone who's not Kaguya, for that matter.
I find it amusing that canon mostly ignores the fact that Flandre exists. She never shows up when the SDM is involved, for example. She doesn't show up in crowd scenes either. She makes her mandatory appearances in BAiJR, PMiSS, and StB, and then falls off the face of the Earth.
Probably to show that she really is locked most of the time. But she still has more screentime than several characters...(hint: starts with M)
Well there's her interactions with Remilia (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Bohemian_Archive_in_Japanese_Red/Flandre) which are kind of fun.
(http://en.touhouwiki.net/images/thumb/8/81/053BAiJRFlandre.jpg/250px-053BAiJRFlandre.jpg)
...Momiji?At least Momiji appeared in more than one game and had several appearances in other media.
Now that I've reread it, what exactly was up with that meteor anyway?Marisa?
At least Momiji appeared in more than one game and had several appearances in other media.
The other M.
Marisa?
No. Merlin?
Guys, he clearly means Mima.Nah it's Mamizou, obviously :V
Aya stuffReally, a lot of my beef with Aya boils down to how poorly the fan community has used her. There was a time when everyone was contractually obligated to have her show up in every last ounce of doujin material, regardless of whether she fit or not. Said appearance largely involved intruding into a scene, doing nothing but having a spaz fit while spouting "Ayaya hot scoop," then leaving. I think it's Morino Hon's Yakumo-ke that serves as a great example; a doujin about the Yakumos and Aya gets more screen time than Ran or Yukari. If she's intended to be a main character instead, the doujin will all too frequently involve a race or show of speed by default which she will win without fail. She gets a bit coddled in canon as she's so powerful, but fanon borders on abusive. Her popularity has settled in somewhat and I've seen her around less and less, which has caused my opinion of her to jump to neutral. Doesn't take too much, but for her it was quite a move.
Byakuren stuffOH GOODY Paz, Monhan, and the A List cut this down from a 6 lunch hour ordeal to a 3 lunch hour one. Building on what's been stated so far:
Byakuren's EVILI swear, after reading all of the material a dozen times over, I'm still puzzled to see what only feels like a deliberately negative interpretation of a character that was made to be the opposite. It's really driven me to take a closer look at the character and the result has been the opposite of people's intentions. As for using/corrupting/manipulating people, not only is Byakuren not inclined to that sort of behavior and doesn't have a reason for doing so, but there's little to show that she'd even be mentally capable of manipulating people in the first place. Byakuren's pretty easy to figure out since she's a heart-on-your-sleeve type. Imperfect? Yup. Naive? Sure. EEEE-VILLL? "No, Byakuren is really a nice person." So sayeth the ZUN. He typically shies away from directly stating a character's personality attributes, leaving it for important and succinct summation of a character while showing instead of telling for everything else. He doesn't futz around at all with Byakuren. A very rare and distinctly positive statement from the man himself which few other characters have received.
She helps youkaiThe idea that Byakuren's philosophy regarding youkai can't work at all comes from a standpoint of a few people whose only means with dealing with youkai of any sort involves extermination and little else, so it wouldn't stick with them in the first place. When all you have is a hammer, a hammer is all you'll use. This is strangely hypocritical as Reimu & Co. hang out with youkai constantly and really haven't exterminated a (main character) youkai since... Anyway, Reimu doesn't even want to resort to such measures if possible and Byakuren provides a means to those ends. If she had zero success with her methods, the Myouren temple would have already went kaput. On the contrary, it's stated that the place is thriving despite some lingering unease between the two different kinds of attendees.
She hurts youkaiStating that this philosophy is dangerous to youkai just doesn't seem to hold as much water as it could since she's more learned in their needs and behaviors and wouldn't bother with it if it did any damage or even destroyed them before reaching enlightenment. Byakuren confirms that youkai are capable of such an achievement and nobody offers much in the way of a point to the opposite. Delve into it any further and it seems to hit an Occam's Razor. And this is Gensokyo! It exists for creatures like youkai and other oddities and goddeities, but requires the presence of humans. None of them are going to go away anytime soon. Byakuren's ideals and goals fit perfectly here and even at their worst still remain a preferable alternative to the status quo. This is even buffered by spell card rules, discouraging the previous youkai-eat-humans-exterminate-youkai cycle. The rule sticks the two in a room, the Myouren temple gives them a reason not to want to bite each other's heads off.
VanityThe vanity thing never stuck with me because it only seems to come up in passing and is stated in such a way that it's vain to reverse aging at all. Truly, if anyone would pick an age to stay at, it would be when they were at their prime. It never really felt vain for her to choose her late 20's as opposed to an age at which she'd best be described as losing her grip on her faculties and osteoporitic. Staying in an old form would constantly work against her strengths and you can't finish what you set out to accomplish if you're dead and gone. No other point is ever brought up about any concern for her physical appearance or any interpretation of vanity in any capacity, especially not to the point where one's ego would become involved.
I just want to say she's not perfectReally I don't think her die-hard fans see her as perfect, but her mindset is benevolent while her faults are things that so many people can relate to. She feels like more of a person than some other characters in the series and still carries the burden of her idealism in an admirable manner, hence her draw.
Miko stuffByakuren's inverse, so this becomes low-hanging fruit. Suffice to say, Miko's never getting a truly fair look from me because my only real problem with the human race falls to an extraordinarily thin band of personalities that combine pride, greed, manipulation, self-serving egotism, power, and incompetence. What few people I've ever made enemies with are best described as "basically Miko." She's a disaster in her backstory and learns little if anything from it. I gave her a chance for HM and the selfish might-makes-right attitude made me regret it.
TD is basically an in-jokeYukari and Mamizou have other similarities, too. They both always seem to have that wry smirk on their face, generally act in their own interest but aren't beyond assisting others when the opportunity arises, and both heavily influence a local human.
.Yukari and Mamizou have other similarities, too. They both always seem to have that wry smirk on their face, generally act in their own interest but aren't beyond assisting others when the opportunity arises, and both heavily influence a local human.
The idea that Byakuren's philosophy regarding youkai can't work at all comes from a standpoint of a few people whose only means with dealing with youkai of any sort involves extermination and little else, so it wouldn't stick with them in the first place. When all you have is a hammer, a hammer is all you'll use. This is strangely hypocritical as Reimu & Co. hang out with youkai constantly and really haven't exterminated a (main character) youkai since... Anyway, Reimu doesn't even want to resort to such measures if possible and Byakuren provides a means to those ends. If she had zero success with her methods, the Myouren temple would have already went kaput. On the contrary, it's stated that the place is thriving despite some lingering unease between the two different kinds of attendees.
Byakuren provides a means of pacification as opposed to extermination. It's a means of self-realization for any youkai open to the idea. Any youkai that would antagonize humans is banned. She isn't above discipline for any misbehavior, even for stuff as light as Kyouko being disruptively noisy and not just her noisy self. The temple at large has even influenced dangerous youkai like Murasa and that results in making Komachi's (who IS Death and thus not exactly likely to bite it) day a bit wetter than drowning someone else. Byakuren certainly can't keep tabs on everyone, but I've always found it hard to believe she's so permissive of any trouble because there's so much evidence indicating its opposite. Byakuren just letting things slide would also work against her goals as it'll trouble anyone associated with Myouren temple and work against what's established there. Though her teachings might not reach all youkai, the baseline is a net positive. She may not exterminate purely evil youkai, but that's not her style. Forcing such a duty on her crosses a moral line. It's not in the job description because that's someone else's job.Stating that this philosophy is dangerous to youkai just doesn't seem to hold as much water as it could since she's more learned in their needs and behaviors and wouldn't bother with it if it did any damage or even destroyed them before reaching enlightenment. Byakuren confirms that youkai are capable of such an achievement and nobody offers much in the way of a point to the opposite. Delve into it any further and it seems to hit an Occam's Razor. And this is Gensokyo! It exists for creatures like youkai and other oddities and goddeities, but requires the presence of humans. None of them are going to go away anytime soon. Byakuren's ideals and goals fit perfectly here and even at their worst still remain a preferable alternative to the status quo. This is even buffered by spell card rules, discouraging the previous youkai-eat-humans-exterminate-youkai cycle.
Youkai don't want to live in a peaceful world, with a very few exceptions.Typical speciesist propaganda.
I have no problem with other people having different opinions on Byakuren, but you're definitely twisting the facts to suit your own perception of her. I mean, her ideals sound good to us in the progressive modern era, so we want to believe in them. I think that's a dangerous way to see the world though.I think everyone in this thread is being selective with "evidence" when it comes to their perceptions of a character. No character is canonically terrible or awesome. That's what should make talking about what we like or dislike about them fun. I mean, seems more fun than drawing conclusions about the dangerous way someone sees the world based on their defense of a Touhou character anyway.
I think everyone in this thread is being selective with "evidence" when it comes to their perceptions of a character. No character is canonically terrible or awesome. That's what should make talking about what we like or dislike about them fun. I mean, seems more fun than drawing conclusions about the dangerous way someone sees the world based on their defense of a Touhou character anyway.
I think Mamizou makes a better Yukari than Yukari does, since she actually has followers instead of just pretending to be queen of the world in her own head.Yukari doesn't do that? Literally the only thing I can think of that you might be refering is that chap in WaHH were she says the the zashiki-warashi are youkai spies, which she doesn't even claim control of, and whose conversation with Kasen can be just interpreted as her wanting Kasen to act more youkai like, as you/Tiamat (too lazy to look) said some posts ago.
Yukari doesn't do that? Literally the only thing I can think of that you might be refering is that chap in WaHH were she says the the zashiki-warashi are youkai spies, which she doesn't even claim control of, and whose conversation with Kasen can be just interpreted as her wanting Kasen to act more youkai like, as you/Tiamat (too lazy to look) said some posts ago.
She never goes around claiming queenship of Gensokyo.
Heck, she even hides her name from what are at least inferred to be her most notable feats, like the drafts of the spellcard rules.
Besides, ZUN did say that most pre-battle dialogue is just trash-talk.
Instead, Touhou is something like pro wrestling. Spell cards are pro wrestling moves.
However many times pro wrestlers are shouted to "beat to death!", they do not perform unpopular abuses in attacking.
Therefore, the brutality in the jeers that they hurl at each other in matches can be seen as enjoyment.
That makes you simply an IDIOT in my eyesCirno, an idiot? No way!!
i was inordinately amused by the fact that even after "winning" against Marisa CIRNO is the one with the "defeated artwork".SoPM confirmed the suspicions that Cirno indeed lost the fight by a wide margin.
Pretty much this, too, is always something in the back of my mind where Yukari's concerned. She really is completely self-interested, and has no compunction with tableflipping people's lives just for larfs. What kind of person does this? And, best part of all, everyone's stuck with her, forever apparently. As a character it makes her interesting to watch in action, and you could argue she gives many Gensokyans a purpose in life. But on the other hand, so does Vladimir Putin, so seriously, Yukari is definitely among the worst.
What's interesting, but maybe to be expected, in this thread is how people are describing character traits that I agree with, but have a completely different emotional response to. Like Critz's take on Cirno. I agree that that's Cirno's behavior. I think it's what makes her endearing. But at the same time, stuff like Yukari's gleeful sociopathy is pretty indisputably terrible.
I kind of dislike Sakuya and Reisen, not so much for their characters (although I don't think their characters are especially interesting, particularly compared to everyone around them in their games) as for their designs. They keep getting in the way whenever I have to explain Touhou to someone who doesn't know it. "Yes, it's Japanese and the cast is all women, but don't worry, it's not sexualized or fetishy at all... Except for the two characters in the weird fetish uniforms, one of which also has goddamn bunny ears. Oops."
(http://i.imgur.com/4rJ6fKX.png) (http://i.imgur.com/AxAGagy.png)Check out these humongous meat ballsDude, that one's nearly flat. Not helping your case at all.
i'm not even sure how to respond to how wacky that list is
It's hard to have a balanced discussion when you have no clue of what you're talking about, bringing up fandom depictions of characters
pretty much claiming Touhou is a fetishy sexualized series because the characters are female.
Yukari is also not human.
Did you know that when asked which 2hu had the largest boobs, ZUN actually answered (it's Yuugi)?
I don't think you really get to criticize me with a signature like that, Drake.I most certainly do. What you should have said is that I didn't actually have any criticism and just expressed my disagreement which by itself doesn't stand for much.
GOD you literally are not reading a thing I'm saying. That Alphes picture was an official advertisement.
Personally I've always tried to give everyone a fair chance, but Seija's made me doubt the feasibility of the "thou shalt not kill" rule that's so deeply ingrained in the series. It's precisely because she's driven to cause trouble. Sure, she's pretty weak on her own, but her two appearances has shown that she has the resourcefulness to make up for that. And sure, pretty much absolutely everyone knows and hates her after ISC, but there's always that one new shmuck she can take advantage of to cause another incident that might end up being devastating regardless if it's solved or not. So there, if anyone wants to defend her or poke holes in my argument that she should have been gotten rid of in a more permanent manner, then be my guest. I'm open to new perspectives.
Try Hisona's Seija. You might find it interesting.I managed to find one untranslated doujin on Seija by the author you mentioned. If it's the same doujin you mean, you're gonna have to give me a summary 'cause I can't read moonrunes. :V
I find topics like this very interesting, so long as they're civil.And as long as we don't have someone doing more projecting than a movie theater throwing around "loli" and barking at anyone who even mildly disagrees. What a weird derail.
Most of them are for design reasons actually, especially Okuu (her design is just all over the place), and Satori (her attire reminds me of the dress-ups I would put on as a little girl...)
Did you know that when asked which 2hu had the largest boobs, ZUN actually answered (it's Yuugi)?
Dude, that one's nearly flat. Not helping your case at all.
(http://s3.postimg.org/m9ihl4i5r/Wa_HH3_Kasen_1.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/m9ihl4i5r/)
Now those, those are some pork buns.
I am still waiting for a Yukari/Suwako/Byakuren interaction in an official Touhou story.
Same here, though I take her inaction as a sign that she's okay with them. She did act in SA and spectated battles in HM, so it's not like she doesn't keep an eye on happenings.
i'm not even sure how to respond to how wacky that list is
And as long as we don't have someone doing more projecting than a movie theater throwing around "loli" and barking at anyone who even mildly disagrees. What a weird derail.
Satori does look like a council estate housewife, it's true, but the one design I can't forgive is Mamizou. You know when you open a carton of expired milk, give it a little sniff just to make sure, and your head snaps back as your lips curl? That was exactly my reaction to her portrait. Even by ZUN standards, it looks sloppy and kind of disturbing on some level. Like you want to chase her away with a broom or something.
I find topics like this very interesting, so long as they're civil.
ERM Anyways, When i am thinking of the whole cast in general the only ones i Truly forget are the bucket girl and yamame :V its like that part of my brain always forget they exist for some reason
Rezzi posts honestly made me chuckle for some good minutes
ERM Anyways, When i am thinking of the whole cast in general the only ones i Truly forget are the bucket girl and yamame :V its like that part of my brain always forget they exist for some reason
Namely, her... whatever it is that she wears over her shirt and skirt. Seriously, what is it, and what purpose it has as a piece of clothing? It looks similar to something Ran and (sometimes) Yukari wear, but they wear it over a single color full length dress and it looks good on it. On Kasen it looks really out of place. And she wears it ALL THE TIME. Like when it's cold, she wears a jacket OVER it, and it looks especially silly.
So my least favourite Gensokyan?
To me, that would be Tewi. You see, when it comes to fiction, there are either trolls which are enjoyable, and trolls, who are insufferable. Tewi falls into the latter. This might be the cause of fanwork, but unlike, say Yukari and Seija, who are varied about their antics, Tewi seems to only target Reisen, who is one of my favourite characters. Plus, I cannot find anything what really stands out from her in a positive way.
Well... lemme say who I hate most then: Tewi.
I don't like her habit of bullying Reisen who is a character I like a lot. Plus, this whole trope of "little character triumphs over the bigger one" is pretty boring for me (think about Tom & Jerry). I know all of this is more of a fandom thing, but still...
I was just never fond of small pranksters who likes to troll the others for no reason at all. She is nothing but an annoying little bitch for me.
I'm sorry, Tewi fans.
Maybe the case with me is that there is hardly anything for me to like about Tewi in canon (to me, she is a super old bunny amongside others who look just like her who is known to scam people, which isn't precisely the most admirable trait to have), so the most common subject of fan-art about her sticks out, even in context.I think that's the fault of "Inaba of the Moon and Inaba of the Earth" with how it also affected fanon. But then again it's a 4Koma. Who knows Tewi's personality might've been slightly exaggerated here, since we can see how both Kaguya and Mokou are slightly on terms with each other there. We can probably say this is a loose canon, but might not be a good context to how they're really are supposed to be in more serious canon.
I guess there is slight irritation how people say that "Tewi totally beat Yorihime" for falling into one of her pitfalls, which I hardly consider being a proper victory, but that is subject of other time.
Sekibanki - Ugh. A Japanese Dullahan.
Besides, she isn't exactly a Dullahan. She is a Rokuro-, no wait, a Nukeku- bah, I don't know what she is anymore. :T
??? I fail to see anything wrong with that.Well I wouldn't say I dislike her because of her being a Japanese Dullahan, or w/ever. But pretty much the part where her head is separated from her body. It doesn't creep me out, I just don't like it.
Besides, she isn't exactly a Dullahan. She is a Rokuro-, no wait, a Nukeku- bah, I don't know what she is anymore. :T
Rinnosuke: The most important male character, and he's a know-nothing know-it-all who acts like a total jerk towards girls. I have a special disdain towards those who embody the "arrogance and ignorance go hand-in-hand" phrase, and this guy is so bad I almost dropped reading CoLA halfway. And while some of his annoyance towards heroines is understandable, and he IS a merchant after all, some things he did are just way too much, like "Sword of Kirisame" (deception + ambition = evil overlord wannabe) or his first meeting with Youmu (almost leaving a girl in a pile of snow just because she came too early? REALLY?). I never thought it's possible for me, but he's a character I like seeing on the receiving end of any kind of trouble.
However, I rather dislike the concept of the Lunarians, exemplified in the characters Toyohime and Yorihime. Mostly, it's the whole Mary Sue thing, which has been discussed aplenty elsewhere, but also because they operate on a completely different sense of scale to the earthbound characters, and not in a manner that introduces interesting interactions or somesuch. Rather, the presence of characters that can nuke Gensokyo with a swipe of a fan or the like kinda diminishes the majesty of the setting, making it out to be a kiddy pool, with the moon being a family of idle rich tutting at the boorish behavior of the unsupervised roughhousing within.
The earth-based Lunarians, I don't have a problem with, since they are neither explicitly or heavily implied to be flawless, nor seem to operate on a different scale (with the possible exception of Eirin, but then she did annoy me initially due to the whole attitude and "wouldn't have actually failed if not for the mistake of someone else" thing, until the end of SSiB (I think? it's been a while. the one with the whole party-at-the-SDM-where-Eirin-panicks chapter) made her more fallible, and thus relatable). The trip to the moon came across not so much as an opportunity to expand on the origins of these characters, which would be fine and dandy, but rather more like fanfiction written by someone whose lack of experience in world building or characterization has caused them to fall back on the old standby of both informing the audience of what their reactions and opinions should be, rather than letting them interpret things for themselves, and trying to get a positive reception on their original characters by explicitly comparing them favorably to existing and established ones.
Oh, and Suwako's hat is p ridiculous.
but then she did annoy me initially due to the whole attitude and "wouldn't have actually failed if not for the mistake of someone else" thingwhich was not a thing that happened. Eirin never displayed an attitude of "my plans failled because of others", neither in SSiB nor CiLR, since her main objective was achieved. Her fallibility was shown in another way (the one you described).
This forks nicely with my feelings about Tenshi. This sort of imperious bored cruelty just wipes the dynamics out flat. Plus they are snobs.
I know, I was referring to haoreos wording, who said:which was not a thing that happened. Eirin never displayed an attitude of "my plans failled because of others", neither in SSiB nor CiLR, since her main objective was achieved. Her fallibility was shown in another way (the one you described).
I was referring there to her debut in Imperishable Night. From what I recall, the only reason Eirin's plan failed there was because Reisen left a door ajar by accident, wasn't it?Ah, sorry, since you immediately talked about SSiB after it I thought it referred to that.
To be perfectly honest, I'm not really fond of the Ten Desires crew. Rather- I'm not fond of Miko and Futo (Tojiko I could take or leave.) To start off with, it's kind of... weird, having specific historical figures running around. I'm okay with "AND SHE'S A TENGU AND SHE'S A GODMONK AND SHE'S A LIVING UMBRELLA" but when you start putting in characters that are literally "This woman is Prince Shotoku" it starts getting kind of uncomfortable. It's hard to describe why, but I'd feel much more comfortable seeing a Schylla-based Touhou character than one who is supposed to be Gilgamesh, y'know? I don't mind allusions so much, (hellooo descendant of Vlad Tepes) but it's one thing to say a character MIGHT have a legendary backstory (a la Tewi, the possible White Hare of Inaba) and another to flat out declare it. It also doesn't help that some of these characters are married...
More than that, though, I have a problem in that Miko is basically that scary kind of person who is always smiling and being buddy-buddy and then they use you up like a two-dollar bill. She's utterly ruthless - not something I particularly mind in a character - but her insistence that she's always right and always the better party kind of grates on me. I get the impression that she treats basically everyone that isn't sucking up to her like less than dirt, which is frankly unbecoming.
Futo is frankly nuts. Old-timey or not, she comes off as something more like an arsonistic zealot to me. She doesn't seem to be able to see anything but fervent devotion to Miko. Honestly, thinking of her, the only thing I can come up with is "Henchman." Plus, there's only so many "Thees" and "Thous" I can take.Definitely not bitter about how hard she is to hit on her "boat" spellcards, nope.
To be perfectly honest, I'm not really fond of the Ten Desires crew. Rather- I'm not fond of Miko and Futo (Tojiko I could take or leave.) To start off with, it's kind of... weird, having specific historical figures running around. I'm okay with "AND SHE'S A TENGU AND SHE'S A GODMONK AND SHE'S A LIVING UMBRELLA" but when you start putting in characters that are literally "This woman is Prince Shotoku" it starts getting kind of uncomfortable. It's hard to describe why, but I'd feel much more comfortable seeing a Schylla-based Touhou character than one who is supposed to be Gilgamesh, y'know? I don't mind allusions so much, (hellooo descendant of Vlad Tepes) but it's one thing to say a character MIGHT have a legendary backstory (a la Tewi, the possible White Hare of Inaba) and another to flat out declare it. It also doesn't help that some of these characters are married...I completely agree! There's a difference between even Miko and Kaguya: Kaguya is the actual princess in the actual story, but then we move on, give her some personality, make her interesting and fitting in the touhou setting. ZUN just seems to linger on the fact that Miko is prince Shotoku, everything she is and does is because of that fact. Very annoying.
While I agree that the amount of factual history slammed in your face with the TD crew was a bit jarring, technically there are quite a few other "historical figures" in Touhou in a way (besides the IN crew, there's also Byakuren... kinda)I think that's my real problem with her. Almost every final boss references or draws inspiration from some myth or legend. Miko isn't special in that regard but ZUN tries to make it seem that way. The only thing that makes her unique is that she's a legendary character, and that doesn't make her unique, so actually she's not unique at all lol.
Futo is frankly nuts. Old-timey or not, she comes off as something more like an arsonistic zealot to me. She doesn't seem to be able to see anything but fervent devotion to Miko. Honestly, thinking of her, the only thing I can come up with is "Henchman".I pretty much agree with everything you say about her, but that's actually why I like Futo. She's an evil henchman through and through but she's so zany it's difficult to take her evil-ness seriously. She's like Gigamesh to Miko's ExDeath, or Ginyu to Miko's Freeza. At least, that's how I see her.
While I agree that the amount of factual history slammed in your face with the TD crew was a bit jarring, technically there are quite a few other "historical figures" in Touhou in a way (besides the IN crew, there's also Byakuren... kinda), although one major difference is that they're from myths that probably didn't happen while Prince Shotoku possibly did (then again, part of the whole reason Miko is in Gensokyo is because Shotoku has passed from accepted history into legend, instead).
I pretty much agree with everything you say about her, but that's actually why I like Futo. She's an evil henchman through and through but she's so zany it's difficult to take her evil-ness seriously. She's like Gigamesh to Miko's ExDeath, or Ginyu to Miko's Freeza. At least, that's how I see her.
He made a bigger deal of Kaguya's personality than her base legend - portraying her as being selfish and careless and eternally bored independently of her legend.
I feel like ZUN was very excited about the fact that he could use the Shotoku myth at all, so he made a pretty big deal about it. He made a bigger deal of Kaguya's personality than her base legend - portraying her as being selfish and careless and eternally bored independently of her legend. Most touhou characters seem to use the myth as a jumping off point and as a reference in spellcards and abilities, but Miko seems pretty firmly tied to her origins. Its a good and a bad thing, but I can't see her showing us new sides or quirks the way I could see even someone like Shou or Nazrin doing. She's always going to be that stable, distant and slightly cruel Miko.
More than that, though, I have a problem in that Miko is basically that scary kind of person who is always smiling and being buddy-buddy and then they use you up like a two-dollar bill. She's utterly ruthless - not something I particularly mind in a character - but her insistence that she's always right and always the better party kind of grates on me. I get the impression that she treats basically everyone that isn't sucking up to her like less than dirt, which is frankly unbecoming.I don't see this in anything she's done. Her behaviour in every appearance has been one of treating others with respect if they deserve it, even if she still thinks of herself as greatness. And if anything, her character is written specifically to actually be great in the sense that she's extremely talented, knowledgeable and charismatic.
Almost every final boss references or draws inspiration from some myth or legend. Miko isn't special in that regard but ZUN tries to make it seem that way. The only thing that makes her unique is that she's a legendary character, and that doesn't make her unique, so actually she's not unique at all lol.Miko being Prince Shotoku is especially noteworthy, though. It isn't Shotoku being a legend that's important as much as it is being based off of a pseudo-historical figure that everyone knows about. This is particularly unique compared to other characters in the series.
I don't see this in anything she's done. Her behaviour in every appearance has been one of treating others with respect if they deserve it, even if she still thinks of herself as greatness. And if anything, her character is written specifically to actually be great in the sense that she's extremely talented, knowledgeable and charismatic.
Miko being Prince Shotoku is especially noteworthy, though. It isn't Shotoku being a legend that's important as much as it is being based off of a pseudo-historical figure that everyone knows about. This is particularly unique compared to other characters in the series.
The series is full of people like that, though. Yukari (she is charismatic, I think, even if she doesn't apply it the same way as the others...), Byakuren, Kanako. So it doesn't make her stand out. The things I've seen of her that do stand out, and I don't say it as a bad thing, are her more manipulative traits. I think in Wild and Horned Hermit, she basically admits to using religion as a tool to gain popularity. That doesn't mean she's doing it maliciously - she does seem to believe very strongly, indeed arrogantly, in her own ability to lead people well - but it is manipulative.Everyone in the Hopeless Masquerade storyline is openly doing that. :wat: It's not (primarily) for personal gain, it's just to save people from the wave of depression - none of the main religious trio really cares who pulls it off as long as someone does it.
And I don't know about treating others with respect, necessarily, she seems pretty quick to insult "losers" or talk down to people. Touhou is also full of some clever insults, so again, nothing new, but I can't help but feel like Miko's a little more mean-spirited about it just because of how superior she acts. And while these can be fun traits, in a canon with so many other talented, knowledgeable, charismatic folks who are jerks in ways I find more interesting, it doesn't make her particularly appealing. I guess if anything, everyone I named is manipulative, but Miko seems pretty keen on keeping up a shiny appearance, while the others are almost more openly sly? So I don't find Miko quite as fun.Eh, Miko is only really mean-spirited to Byakuren. And that's because she hates Byakuren's obsession with keeping up a shiny appearance (whatever positive traits Byakuren may have, she's still a woman who sacrificed her humanity to give herself a boob job. :V)
Eh, Miko is only really mean-spirited to Byakuren. And that's because she hates Byakuren's obsession with keeping up a shiny appearance
?she's vain given that she intentionally used magic to make herself an attractive voluptuous woman.That's all you see? Seriously?
?though she refuses to see that.
I wonder why so many people think of her like that. Because of that certain parts in SoPM?
We discussed this already, but the idea is that back when she was just trying to live forever as a youkai she used magic to become young and beauiftul (as opposed to just immortal, which was an option). And then she kept using magic to stay young and beautiful even after she decided to be religious again. And, as it turns out, being suspiciously youthful forver is what got her caught and interfered with her ability to save youkai. So if she was less vain she'd have been more effective.
And, well, she's still doing it. PMISS makes it clear that immortal magician youkai naturally appear as old as they were when they became immortal, so it's definitely an active choice on her part.
Umm, I was referring to the "she refuses to see her disciple making mistakes" part, Clarste.
I understand what you're trying to say, but we don't exactly know what was the trigger that blew her cover. There are many other possibilities, though I won't rule out that one.
Indeed, Miko is unfailingly polite and friendly to everyone except Byakuren. Actually, I wonder if people dislike Miko because they identify too much with Byakuren? There was a pretty big gap between UFO and TD, during which time Byakuren became more and solidified into the "saintly" role, so Miko being introduced as her rival made her seem shady by default. When frankly she's more of a clear-cut straightforward saint-type.
We discussed this already, but the idea is that back when she was just trying to live forever as a youkai she used magic to become young and beauiftul (as opposed to just immortal, which was an option). And then she kept using magic to stay young and beautiful even after she decided to be religious again. And, as it turns out, being suspiciously youthful forver is what got her caught and interfered with her ability to save youkai. So if she was less vain she'd have been more effective.We are assuming the youth inducing magic is an active magic in this situation. Who's to say it's not a permanent magic that warp appearances physically and leave it at that... and she has been too used to this form. Also, who is to say all immortal inducing magic functions the same way?
And, well, she's still doing it. PMISS makes it clear that immortal magician youkai naturally appear as old as they were when they became immortal, so it's definitely an active choice on her part.
"being suspiciously youthful forver is what got her caught and interfered with her ability to save youkai"Fanon guess
"her dialog in SoPM makes it clear that she's ignoring it."Make it clear? That's some pretty bold claim, quote?
Then you quoted the wrong part? Also, her dialog in SoPM makes it clear that she's ignoring it.
...used magic to make herself an attractive voluptuous woman.
That's all you see? Seriously?
And her whole thing about converting youkai to Buddhism is pretty much a failure though she refuses to see that.
I wonder why so many people...
A good way to describe how Miko and Byakuren see each other (and, by proxy, their factions) is they view each other as heathens.
I know multiple people that actively pretend SoPM doesn't exist because they don't like how eerily similar Miko and Byakuren are, with the only real differences being their religions of choice and how open they are about their sliminess.
It's kind of strange; Byakuren landed near the bottom of my charts with UFO but has risen since based on SoPM/HM, which seems to be the opposite of most everyone else that has a strong opinion of her. Frankly, I find Youkai Jesus painfully boring and believe Byakuren's far better off with character flaws.
Make it clear? That's some pretty bold claim, quote?Byakuren lists off the six virtues in Buddhism, each one is either contradicted by the youkai's actions or is pointed out as trivial, and she just goes "well ok". Then the various wild things the youkai do are pointed out, and she explicitly says just to ignore it and/or that she has no idea what they get up to, when their actions are obvious to everyone else. I don't know how it's possible to read this entire section and not see that she's willfully ignoring their actions and is content just assuming that they're virtuous without caring if they actually are.
We are assuming the youth inducing magic is an active magic in this situation. Who's to say it's not a permanent magic that warp appearances physically and leave it at that... and she has been too used to this form. Also, who is to say all immortal inducing magic functions the same way?It's specified that without her magic she's just a normal human, and her spells require incantations in order to perform. She isn't immortal, nor is she actually ageless; even back in her original game profile it's specified that she first learned "rejuvenation" (若返り, lit. return to youth). It's definitely something she actively uses. Moreover, of course we know there are many different kinds of magic; that's kind of the point of noting her going past Buddhist magic and off the deep end, and why we're saying this is a different magic than say, Magicians that learn immortality magic, or hermits that use other techniques to prevent aging.
Regardless, we don't know how her specific magic works so unless there is specific canon discuss that then it is meaningless to discuss about it
"being suspiciously youthful forver is what got her caught and interfered with her ability to save youkai"While I'm not certain if it's ever said her lack of aging was one of the reasons people found out she possessed black magic, it's pretty absurd for you to say this is fanon when it would be impossible for this to not become a problem eventually.
Her dialogue in SoPM... If you mean ignoring as in "let's not talk about it for now, it's not the right time", then yes, she did. But if you mean "No, they can't possibly do that. I refuse to acknowledge" and then didn't do anything about it, then I have to say no. It's too soon to assume she'd ignore them making those violations altogether. And HM shows that she is indeed strict about it.
To be fair about the temple position, it's said she didn't exactly know what was there, but that Nazrin told them there was something "incredible" buried there. When they investigated further they figured it was "dangerous" and decided to seal it instead. It still doesn't remove the possibility that Byakuren chose to try and seal it because of something about Miko in particular, but it does mean that she didn't land there with the purpose of suppressing her, as people suspected when TD was released.
Byakuren lists off the six virtues in Buddhism, each one is either contradicted by the youkai's actions or is pointed out as trivial, and she just goes "well ok". Then the various wild things the youkai do are pointed out, and she explicitly says just to ignore it and/or that she has no idea what they get up to, when their actions are obvious to everyone else. I don't know how it's possible to read this entire section and not see that she's willfully ignoring their actions and is content just assuming that they're virtuous without caring if they actually are.Regarding the virtues, Hijiri did make it clear that since they are still in training so they can't exactly uphold those values yet. Most of Marisa claims of her being attacked was back before Hijiri was even out of Makai so having them being in the wild for a thousands of year... it ain't exactly fair to expect these youkais to adapt to the new Buddhist practitioner lifestyles instantly. Miko's remark was just plain insultingly rude and inflammatory so it was fair for anyone to ignore it. May be she does have some faint ideas base on her remark of how they are practitioners so they still make mistakes... but wasn't aware of the problem being bad in such extent like various things that have been popped up in the discussion. But to claim that she was lying and knew what the youkais was up to all along is too farfetched.
It's specified that without her magic she's just a normal human, and her spells require incantations in order to perform. She isn't immortal, nor is she actually ageless; even back in her original game profile it's specified that she first learned "rejuvenation" (若返り, lit. return to youth). It's definitely something she actively uses.Thanks and duly noted regarding the incantation; that actually is something I myself have been pondering for quite a while. Anyway what I was trying to prove was really was more regarding how Clarste claim she just do it out of vain; where it does indeed have functional purpose. I don't mean to digress the topic but since my background kinda revolves with Buddhism somewhat, there are stories that do point out practices of life extension and rejuvenation that does more than just vain-for-the-sake-of-living purpose. Clarste was saying it was for but vain beauty
While I'm not certain if it's ever said her lack of aging was one of the reasons people found out she possessed black magic, it's pretty absurd for you to say this is fanon when it would be impossible for this to not become a problem eventually.yes, it could be possible but the problem is "could". It is just a hypothesis on what might have went wrong; but Clarste was specifically pointing out her action of, per quote:
"And, as it turns out, being suspiciously youthful forver is what got her caught and interfered with her ability to save youkai. So if she was less vain she'd have been more effective."...using speculations of what might have happen as basis for calling out her for being vain is baseless accusatory, it is just pure speculations hence "fanon". Also most of my entire paragraph was trying to refute his claim of calling her vain and her failures because of that:
"whatever positive traits Byakuren may have, she's still a woman who sacrificed her humanity to give herself a boob job."
Remember folks: Byakuren started the slapfight.
but it was the Moriya Shrine Conspiracy for setting up the temple thereTo be fair, it was pretty accidental; and if you were to find out there is something sealed beneath your house that has mysterious power from it and others said it was dangerous... the last thing you would want to do is open it up to see what's inside
Regarding the virtues, Hijiri did make it clear that since they are still in training so they can't exactly uphold those values yet. Most of Marisa claims of her being attacked was back before Hijiri was even out of Makai so having them being in the wild for a thousands of year... it ain't exactly fair to expect these youkais to adapt to the new Buddhist practitioner lifestyles instantly.Whether they have a hard time learning or not, the point is that Byakuren is content with not keeping up with what her disciples actually get up to. At no point did Byakuren actually support the notion that her disciples are actually in training by upholding these virtues. Meanwhile, nobody else seems to see them upholding said virtues, yet they do see them betraying those virtues. This is pretty clear-cut.
Miko's remark was just plain insultingly rude and inflammatory so it was fair for anyone to ignore it.Um, what remark? She started the conversation by asking how they train, and Marisa, Kanako and Miko all just pointed out how they don't adhere to that training. Mostly Marisa.
May be she does have some faint ideas base on her remark of how they are practitioners so they still make mistakes... but wasn't aware of the problem being bad in such extent like various things that have been popped up in the discussion. But to claim that she was lying and knew what the youkais was up to all along is too farfetched."Wasn't aware of how problematic they were being" is part of what we're saying; nobody said she's outright lying. Again, the point is that her not being aware what her youkai even do outside the temple when everyone else in the room does, shows a big contradiction in her supposed intentions. She doesn't even acknowledge their failures until they're pointed out to her, and only then does she say to go easy on them. Her responses are, in order:
to accuse her of pretending to not know of her disciples just for the sake of appearance is a pretty strong accusationYou've misunderstood what we mean about "willfully ignoring" and "refusing to see" their behaviour. The above should clear it up.
Regardless, I find it pretty harsh to judge her base on what her disciples do since from the beginning she already set on a goal of changing the lifestyles in beings who have lived for hundreds to thousands of years... it is a grand goal so to expect instantaneous change is a bit too drastic [...] she has had success convincing her followers to live a better less destructive lifestyles while still being a Youkai (as oppose to ceasing to exist just because they don't do their Youkai functions anymore like some have claim). Changes are gradual and she is doing it... but expecting instantaneous results and judge her for her disciples sneak actions are just unjust.Again, Byakuren's given no indication that her disciples are any better off than other youkai. Nobody's judging her for what her disciples do, we're judging her because she's a dishonest person that puts on a guise of honesty.
Thanks and duly noted regarding the incantation; that actually is something I myself have been pondering for quite a while. Anyway what I was trying to prove was really was more regarding how Clarste claim she just do it out of vain; where it does indeed have functional purpose. I don't mean to digress the topic but since my background kinda revolves with Buddhism somewhat, there are stories that do point out practices of life extension and rejuvenation that does more than just vain-for-the-sake-of-living purpose. Clarste was saying it was for but vain beauty
At no point did Byakuren actually support the notion that her disciples are actually in training by upholding these virtues. Meanwhile, nobody else seems to see them upholding said virtues, yet they do see them betraying those virtues. This is pretty clear-cut.Well she never did make any claim of her disciples can hold all these virtues, and it was also make pretty clear-cut that they are "in-training", as she said
Um, what remark?
Mostly Marisa.Most of the problem Marisa raised happened during UFO though
"Wasn't aware of how problematic they were being" is part of what we're saying; nobody said she's outright lying. Again, the point is that her not being aware what her youkai even do outside the temple when everyone else in the room does, shows a big contradiction in her supposed intentions....but how is it contradictory when she fails to witness her disciples doing stuffs "outside of the temple" when all she can do is try to guide them toward the right path with teaching within the temple. Given how most of the time she spent would be practicing inside the temple... it is only natural her students can sneakily doing stuffs outside
She doesn't even acknowledge their failures until they're pointed out to her, and only then does she say to go easy on them. Her responses are, in order:
- Oh it isn't about money, it's about humans being able to live without fearing us killing them.
- They're still in training, so please forgive them trying to kill you on occasion.
- (ignored)
- (ignored)
- Well this might be considered training in ways such as meditation.
- Never mind that / Don't dwell on it.
She has zero appropriate responses. It's comical.
Next, are you saying that she's strict about disciplining her youkai, or that she wants critics to be lenient? Because these are contradictory, yet you (and Byakuren) argue for both. This is the problem: on the surface she seems strict, and she probably does harp on her disciples when she finds out what they're doing wrong as "punishment", but she doesn't care to actually be informed on their behaviour and just wants to save face when confronted about their behaviour not matching what she believes, rather than admitting there's something horribly flawed with her approach. Her excuses are for her own sake, not her disciples.I don't argue for Hijiri being strict... rather I think she is very lenient and lax in her approach; thus why all of her disciples went... worldly. What I do try to support though is that she infact hasn't much ideas of what happened; and it is normal for any newcomers to Buddhism to went astray (the gap between UFO and SoPM wasnt' much, I believe), since there were argues saying how she is plainly actively ignoring her problems or hide it... what I want to say is that she is just unaware. Sure when it was revealed at the end that her disciples was partaking on such actions and she said she wasn't aware... she was probably trying to save face but at the same time it is kind of hard considering how she has just heard of it... there would be no other actions for her to do unless we were to expect a public apologies; which does make sense but at the heat of the moment perhaps she just didn't have a chance considering the conversation was suddenly cut short by Miko's question to the next part and she was still bewildered (as according to the picture). Her last statement could also be interpreted as her trying to piece things together as well... not just making excuses "I dunno" and leave it at that.
Again, Byakuren's given no indication that her disciples are any better off than other youkai. Nobody's judging her for what her disciples do, we're judging her because she's an amazingly dishonest person that puts on a guise of honesty.but that is rather unfair considering her disciples are indeed than other youkais since it made pretty clears in the next part that she did refuse entry for Youkai who intends to do harm to human or join for malicious intent. From extra reading there are youkais preying for preys outside her temple as well... but regarding her disciples, all they have is the remnant of their worldly desires they are still attached to; but causing no harm (or minimal in Murasa's case, but like said, she is still progressing). That alone proves how by default they are much better off than "any better off than other youkai". All in all, she never ever said her disciples are perfect and they are all "still in-training"... even in Touhou 13.5 she did call out Ichirin for still having worldly thoughts, in public. There are issues with her followers, sure; but saying she is dishonest because she can't micromanage them all is just rather hurting since she does admit her followers have problem. If she were to actively denied others accusations though then that would be plainly dishonest... but she didn't do that
...you do realize that she wasn't being a good Buddhist at the time, right? She gave into her fear of death and sought out dark magics to live forever. Instead of meditating on her mortality and trying to transcend it. Heck, she gave into "the desire to live" and acted just like Miko. Whether or not being immortal is inherently wrong in Buddhism is irrelevant (although we're told in WaHH that Touhou-Hell considers it a sin), because the point of Byakuren's backstory is that when push came to shove she forgot all her Buddhist teachings and turned to black magic instead. She sought immortality, for improper reasons using improper methods. Her UFO profile literally says "in the beginning, it was born from her own greed."
Now, later she had a change of heart and decided to honestly preach Buddhism again, but for that period of her life she was anything but a good Buddhist. Like Drake said, she was pretty much the same person as Miko. She used the trappings of Buddhism to further her own ambition. Now, the fact that she did have a change of heart is certainly relevant, and you're free to judge her based on who she is now instead of who she was then, but trying to retroactively justify the decisions she made back then when it is 100% canon that it was purely from greed and fear and self-interest strikes me as being a stubborn apologist.
True, but I think you're misunderstanding the point of the "Taoist" faction. It's not like they have any devotion to Taoism as a religion, or care whether or not anyone else worships it. To Miko, Taoism is simply "power". Buddhism is also "power", except a different kind of power. To Miko, Taoism and Buddhism are both tools to be used for their proper purposes. Specifically, Taoism teaches how to control nature and life, while Buddhism teaches how to control people. Ultimately she has no faith in anything but herself.That actually is a really interesting way of looking at her through the perspective of what she only cares and what is in it for her at the point. Duly noted for new knowledge, thanks
And that's exactly why she wants to lead people. If she's the only one who can be trusted, the only reliable way to help people is to tell them what to do. Heck, that's not even what she wants to do, she'd rather sit back and become a celestial, but out of the goodness of her heart she decided to take time out of her busy schedule and give people orders. She seriously thinks that's in their best interest, because she believes everyone else is less competent than her. You can see this attitude in SoPM: she offered to rule the human village, but was convinced this was unnecessary so quickly gave up on it. Ruling the world isn't actually a goal of hers at all, it's a charity she runs.
While obviously it takes no small amount of arrogance to actually believe something like this, I think it's misleading to say she doesn't care about helping people. If she didn't care, we'd never even see her.
>Of course she does. By listing a bunch of precepts that they apparently swore to follow, she creates her expectations of them, and then she defends those expectations. Perhaps not all of them to the letter, but she clearly believes that they are actually training as she describes; otherwise she wouldn't even be surprised.She never even said they sworn to anything. In the sense of Buddhism, all precepts are a guidelines or as quoted "training wheels", not a strict objective morality list on what you all need to fulfill to be certified a Buddhist. To simply "strive" and "try" to achieve these goals then you are already walking on the path. The keyword here is to try... through the journey of attaining those virtues. To say if they failed to follow it mean they are not training, that is a false dichotomy. Case in point, even in our world's reowned Buddhist practitioners are still worry and still gone astray from these virtues times to times through daily lives... but acknowledging it and trying to follow it is the key. Let alone youkais who have spent their beings following their own raw instincts and natural purposes. Just because they violate those codes doesn't mean they don't know their end goals and try to attain these virtues (what practicing are all about).
You're also understating how little of their training they follow. As I said before, they don't follow anything substantial out of what Byakuren lists. It isn't that they can't hold all of the virtues, it's that they seemingly can't hold any.Same as above. What measures are to define "to follow"? The only one where the Youkais obviously violated are discipline in consuming and indulging in desires behaviors.
What? She never says anything about UFO's events, which were nearly three years before SoPM. She just says previously / recently / just a while ago. Regardless, that doesn't even matter. Byakuren says her youkai are apparently putting the concept of "not attacking people" into practice, yet they aren't. She says they vow not to kill, steal, lie or drink, yet they do (or try). And obviously they lie, if Byakuren believes them.Regarding the "gift of fearlessness and Marisa being attacked though... yes this was indeed my bad, I mistook the timeline gap between UFO and SoPM quite a bit so truly my sincerest apologies for that. Anyhow, let's approach this in a different perspective if we were to use recent time as a context:
And again, the youkai are fine; youkai are youkai and everyone but Byakuren expects them to behave this way. The "in-training" is her excusing herself, not excusing her disciples. Does she intend to discipline them for straying, or does she want to suppress criticism for them straying? You can't have both. Byakuren says that they swear by these precepts, and she says that they should be punished, and yet excuses their behaviour because she doesn't want to look like a fool for being the one responsible for their training. She is explaining what they're apparently supposed to be doing in their training, but they don't follow it, so it looks like a waste of time to everyone else. Byakuren makes excuses for them so she doesn't look bad, not so that the others think her disciples act, uh, exactly how they already know they act.Again, that's not how Buddhism works, you don't swear by any precepts and Byakuren never make any claim of how her disciples swear by these precepts either. Regarding whether who she was excusing using the line "in-training", it can be interpreted both way. Hijiri say they are in-training so they can't follow these precepts fully yet... this is entirely fair in Buddhism concept as just because they can't follow the precepts doesn't mean they are not practicing Buddhism, but rather them failing to follow precepts are all within the path of practice. Like stated, in our world, practitioners accidentally led astray by the heat of the moment and their desires all the time... but this is all fair in the path to strive to improve. Her excuses are simply explaining things for what it is... and regardless, any explanation can be interpreted as excuses. Whether she will make her disciples pay repentance for their misdeeds or not, that aren't stated within the text, but there is no reason to assume why not. She never make a claim of "they did no wrong", all she did was explaining the reasons for why things happen that way (they are in-training).
This isn't inflammatory or insulting... Regardless, this quote is irrelevant to the section we're talking about and I'm not sure why you brought it up.It is inflammatory and insulting, within the whole tea session where this was repeated a lot at Hijiri along with other snide remarks regarding Buddhism, and Hijiri later did have to go out of her way to refute how those actions are "because of the immaturity of the user" (can't remember exact quote). Anyway, I brought it up since within the section we have been discussing about, aside from umbrella statement regarding of Buddhism; all she said was a bit at the end was the Nyuudo going to party (Kogasa is not even a part of the temple and she still mistakenly include her in).. but the only relevant statement of Miko was repeating what others have said.
It's written to emphasize that she thinks she knows how they behave, and then demonstrate that she's really the only one that doesn't. This is her duty! This is what she's apparently dedicating her life to, yet she doesn't want to accept that her methods are flawed....you are probably already sick of me repeating "Actually in a Buddhism sense..." so I am just going to say that her goals are to teaches knowledge. Buddhism ain't a religion of objective commandments but a guidelines on how to live in a way that minimise suffering in lives (basic course at least). She teaches these Youkai the code on how to lives and they try to follow it... and just because they are shown lose to the temptation of desires doesn't mean they are not trying to follow it (in that regard all temple's monk methods are flawed since this is pretty much mirroring real life).
Say you are a parent. You make it your duty to teach your kid right from wrong, and specifically teach them why hitting people is wrong and that they shouldn't. Then you find out from their school that they've been hitting other kids. You also find out they hit other kids at daycare, and at the playground. Somehow, basically everyone knows but you. Then, instead of accepting your failure to teach them not to hit and changing your strategy, you make excuses for your kid and say they just can't help it. Why did everybody know but you? Were you not watching them? Sure they can do stuff behind your back, but it's still ultimately your responsibility that they didn't learn. You failed at your duty, and that in itself isn't a bad thing. What's bad is that you don't accept that you failed, and instead of doing something you made excuses and refused to take responsibility, despite telling yourself it was your duty to teach them. Then, you don't even change your approach: you just punish them, tell them the same thing and go "yeah they won't do it again now!". No this is a bad idea that doesn't help anyone and is only lying to yourself.Like said, she never ever make a claim of excuses saying they can't help it. The statement is, the are in-training; essentially: "I am STILL correcting them" (present tense). She never deny she has failed but all she said is that this is a work in progress that would take time to fix... and yes, as stressed before, it is completely reasonable for these behaviours to take a long time to change especially for Youkai whose existence are defined with sole purposes and raw instinct; and thus "in-training so please pardon their mistakes"; and not "they are what they are, please ignore them".
Clearly not, since she had no response to it. She's right; forbearance is something we all have to do regardless, and diligence is redundant if you're already supposed to be training.Then isn't that great? Marisa says everyone does it anyway so that would mean the Youkai does hold some of these values, as opposed to, per quoted: " it's that they seemingly can't hold any".
This was another problem with her practice, though. More problematic youkai are the ones she should be targeting in order to rehabilitate. You can't argue that her disciples are better than the youkai who she wouldn't even accept into the temple and therefore her practice is effective; that's awful reasoning. They didn't have to do anything to be more hospitable.But you were the one making the claim of "Byakuren's given no indication that her disciples are any better off than other youkai"... and for that statement I had to make distinction has to be made regarding how her disciples are indeed better than the common youkai