JK9 Mafia - Game over like a dog with 2 legs

[Doll.S CUBE]

I haven't really done anything because I was waiting for you guys to post, I'm not really good at starting conversations...

Anyway, for some reason I suspect FFMaster, but I don't really know why... I also suspect PX, even though I hugged him. I also dislike you, Bardiche, for some reason but I don't really suspect you as scum.

It's nearing midnight now as I post this, so sometime tomorrow I'll probably post a better reply. I'm also not good at explaining things...

[reVelske]

@reVelske: Day end was at 5 AM for me. Not all of us are American.

So? Neither am I an American, the day end was at 9AM for me, you could've at least showed up during the evening of 11th seeing how you knew you weren't going be able to make any other posts afterwards, yet you didn't.

So tell me, what's your view on Day One no-lynch?

Anyway, for some reason I suspect FFMaster, but I don't really know why... I also suspect PX, even though I hugged him. I also dislike you, Bardiche, for some reason but I don't really suspect you as scum.

It's nearing midnight now as I post this, so sometime tomorrow I'll probably post a better reply. I'm also not good at explaining things...

What did you hope to achieve by listing your... eh, dislikes without any reasons whatsoever? You don't have to write essays or get into details, simple reasons would suffice.

[Doll.S CUBE]

Ah okay. Anyway, sleepy time now...

[Affinity]

@Bardiche: But this is not reflected at all in their latter posts or their general play in other games.  I don't usually employ meta in this game but it seems rather silly for people to actually change their entire scumhunting philosophy just because they are scum and try and convince people; it's likely they would say the same thing whether town or scum.  This is truly lynching people just for having the wrong idea about RVS, which has nothing to do with their alignment at all.  It makes the entire PXhunt on D1 look like a complete laugh, despite the supposed sins that they are committing that people like Doll are more guilty for (PX defends decently).  How is not correctly answering your questions about RVS scummy?  How does it really matter?  Furthermore, if they are advocating passiveness, shouldn't they be... passive?

In general people who actually attempt to hide their scummy nature are more worth going for than criticizing people over the definition for RVS, which has honestly not brought us anywhere during the past few games.  Roukanken being first and foremost, with a complete ignorance of what NeoSerela said in this post which is reasonable (RVS really just ends; nothing wrong with that) at least warrants some kind of reply and just opportunistically hopping onto his far more unimportant "I don't know what to do" post.  Bardiche and huhwhat had their replies (which I disagree with), reVelske vaugely addresses it and has some initiative with his original PX case, and FFMaster refers to a rather unimportant part of it but Roukanken just sails on by like the godfather.  Also, I notice that he has never really made clear why Neo is more scummy than PX before the earlier lurked for some time, since he said Neo had original opinions while PX was just spectating.  So...

##Vote: Roukanken

===

As for real life excuses, internet at camp didn't work yesterday, making me unable to do anything whatsoever, which is why I wasn't around for the hammer.  Despite all my disagreements with the PX case, I would have hammered if I was around, I suppose.

[reVelske]

Okay folks, more posts perhaps?

Roukanken being first and foremost, with a complete ignorance of what NeoSerela said in this post which is reasonable

I still don't see how it's "reasonable", there's absolutely nothing wrong with pressuring a player to get things rolling, especially when it's an inexperienced player who may very well crack under the pressure. If someone wants to hammer like an idiot then they can deal the consequence. And of course, EXPLAINING how you are voting just to pressure defeats the whole point of actually pressuring someone.

[Pesco]

Vote count

PX: reVelske
Neo: Roukan
Doll: Bardiche
Roukan: Affinity

Not voting: PX, FFMaster, NeoSerela, Doll

8 alive, 5 votes to lynch.

72 hours remain.

[Doll.S CUBE]

Reading the posts again, I can't really make much of a decision at the moment, so I think I'm just gonna follow my suspicion here, so here's my:

##Vote: FFMaster

[reVelske]

Care to explain your suspicion? Or by "suspicion" you meant "gut feeling"?

[Doll.S CUBE]

Yeah, gut feeling I guess, just really don't know yet.

[reVelske]

Don't want to sound rude, but how can you "really don't know" for this long? If you are waiting for something to be "sure" of, it won't happen unless you are Sherlock Holmes or has a certain power role. Start placing yourself in others' shoes, try see what makes sense and what doesn't, try find flaws in people's thinking, try find inconsistencies, start bashing heads until bean pastes come out. It's rare that you'll ever find anything you will be absolutely certain of, so you just gotta put your foot down on whatever you can find and uncover.

One does not simply "don't know" his way into Mordor.

[Doll.S CUBE]

Hmm, got it, I'll read the posts again when my brain is functioning better. Maybe I can actually describe my reasons in more then a couple of sentences then.

[Bardiche]

@reVelske: I was online at 1 AM, posted, went to sleep before the deadline fell which I now see was at 6 AM. There was no evidence to suggest that there would be No Lynch without majority before that time. Your attempt to paint that in a bad light does not reflect well on yourself.

@Doll: The personal sentiment is noted, but unfortunately we're not here to make friends. :-( I'm sorry, you'll have to put up with it for a while longer. Can you elucidate why FFMaster gives you a gutfeeling when others don't? You don't need to list everyone, just say what makes FFMaster stand out to you.

@Affinity: You don't need to act it to advocate it. They vote me because they think I should've RVS'd and just sat back until someone'd eventually end it. This is bad logic and it moves into the territory of scummy reasoning to stifle discussion.

##Unvote
##Vote: NeoSerela

As pursuing Doll won't amount to anything, and I happen to agree with Roukanken about Serela's lurking, and given she just danced past D1 while lurking, I'm satisfied.

[Affinity]

@reVelske (and Bard, slightly): I can understand that you don't really subscribe to the RVS case on PX when voting for him, but I think strongly that Serela's counter to all the (in my opinion) silly cases about RVS is decent enough.  There IS no textbook-specific way to end RVS, and there is nothing wrong with finding Bard's reason for ending RVS to be strange (e.g vote the most-voted person!  And repeat again and again that he ended RVS) from their point of view; which is from what I understand, the main immediate reason why they would vote for him.  I feel that the latter is insufficiently addressed and that the more obviously attackable  things like them expecting something stupid to happen needlessly exaggerated, which Roukanken seemed to have jumped on.  Bard did not make his post yet then, and thus Rou had no reason to ignore that post.  I agree with you that the part about PX is fluff though; sorry for not making things clear.

Of course, I don't think that his continued absence is any good, but I just feel that the case on him has been blown out of proportion by emphasis on the wrong points even on day two.  Yet another weakness of MoTK Mafia in my opinion.  You should be voting people who jumped onto wagons on D1, not on disagreements with scumhunting philosophy.

[reVelske]

@reVelske: I was online at 1 AM

Oh...? *checks the posts again* eh... right, woops, guess I was a bit confused with your posts' posting time, my apologies.

There was no evidence to suggest that there would be No Lynch without majority before that time.

Oh? So this isn't some custom game style on MotK? So this is actually your fault, Pesco? >:S

Your attempt to paint that in a bad light does not reflect well on yourself.

pfffffffffft. (  ?3?)

Regardless, I'd still like your opinion on Day One No-Lynch.

I feel that the latter is insufficiently addressed and that the more obviously attackable  things like them expecting something stupid to happen needlessly exaggerated

Huh? :V

I'm tempted to go "you know what, this is like beating a dead yukkuri, we not getting anywhere." But it's just so ridiculously simple and straight forward IMHO that I absolutely do not see where you guys are coming from with this entire argument, if I was in Roukan's position, I'd have ignore it as well. Fact is, Bard DID end RvS with his vote, exactly as intended too I bet. it's to push Doll closer to lynch to either (1) hope he'd crack under pressure, assuming he is a scum (2) see who would jump to his rescue, (3) force people to discuss the issue. It is a perfectly valid way to end RvS and Bard only reemphasized that point after you people harped on it, and he had every reason to reemphasize it. What if he placed a vote on someone else eg: me? Nothing would likely have happen and people would've probably carried on being silly for a little longer.

[Bardiche]

D1 No Lynch is a D1 No Lynch. I fail to see what opinion you want on it? I'd rather there'd been a lynch - even one on a Townie is better than none at all. ┐(-｡ｰ; )┌  (I can do smilies, too!)

[FinnKaenbyou]

(RVS really just ends; nothing wrong with that)

Either you have no idea what you're talking about, or you're making crap up as you go along.

Let's take your line of reasoning to the logical extreme. Let's say that people avoid making dramatic, poorly-constructed cases on D1 in order to escape the RVS. Let's go on, then, to assume that eventually the RVS ends. What happens then? People have nothing to work with and so have to make dramatic, poorly-constructed cases, which is what moves you out of RVS and into genuine discussion anyway.

Topics of conversation do not magically appear out of nowhere. People have to give Town something to talk about, and if that doesn't happen we'll never move beyond random votes and we may as well draw our lynch targets out of a hat. Sooner or later someone would have to do what Bard did or we wouldn't be having a conversation like this one just now. Calling him out for what is in essence an extremely Townie action is sort of paradoxical.

Also,

but I just feel that the case on him has been blown out of proportion by emphasis on the wrong points even on day two.  Yet another weakness of MoTK Mafia in my opinion.  You should be voting people who jumped onto wagons on D1, not on disagreements with scumhunting philosophy.

Appeal to Authority. Explain why refusing to offer any reasoning at all for your case and then proceeding to duck every question thrown at you is a 'wrong point' being held against Neo.

Neo STILL hasn't posted a thing today, and PX also disappeared after his not-dying yesterday. Honestly, if they have good reasons for lurking and not contributing, I'd expect either a post from them saying 'sorry I'm gonna be away for a while because X' or for Pesco to say he's been notified about their absence. Requesting prods on Neo and PX.

Doll is ugh, but ugh is a nulltell. Hoping he can produce his clarification later on.

[Serela]

Ker-bleh. Motk is down all weekend and then when it comes up I find out we got a no lynch. So we're still practically in day 1, in terms of stuff to work with. That's... really sucky. Oh well. It doesn't help that most of D1 is based around the rvs ridiculous, which I find ultimately not really usable for good scumhunting (directly, at least).

While I would agree with you there, I think PX has had plenty of time to watch and learn. From the other forum that we are from, he seems to be quick at adapting and learning. He has already participated in 2 games. In the first game, I initially got targetted for doing the same thing he is doing now ie. lurking and not putting up new info. In the second, he was lurking a lot and not participating at the same time, and got targetted for it. I think this time, he is more likely scum, and is trying to lie low, like he did in the first game. Hey, it worked then, why not now?

But... this is still only early in day 1! Isn't it a bit early to decide if he's trying to lie low again? Not to mention when he did it last game, he was actually town.

Yes, people would have to criticise eventually. But here we have two people doggedly biting into how terrible the action itself was to the point of absolute abandon of any other thread to pursue.

There wasn't really anything else for me to pursue anyway, at the time. Nothing else was going on. Honestly, while at this point I feel debate over what happened itself in the RVS is kind of nulltelly, you certainly seem to be over exaggerating a lot of stuff to make your targets sound bad, as Affinity gave examples of.

Bigger post coming (if I think of more stuff to say, at least) since I'm moving from my laptop to my desktop, since working with my broken-monitor laptop is irritating.

[PX]

Blah blah, maintenance stopped me from posting, ends late at night, sent a pm to pesco that I was gonna be gone for half the day, I'm back, longer post coming.

[Serela]

Do you have anything to add right now beside "I disagree with the case on PX because WIFOM" and "I disagree with Bardiche's methods because" while not providing a shred of initiative yourself?

Add this to the list of misreps from Bard this game. I was obviously showing initiative with my case on you, regardless of whether it was a good case or not.

Not sure how I should feel about Rev instantly going back on PX at d2 start, but then again, nothing had really changed other then time till deadline anyway. This is why no lynching sucks, we've gained pretty much no solid info to work with.

Calling him out for what is in essence an extremely Townie action is sort of paradoxical.

...I certainly wouldn't go as far as saying what Bard did was "extremely Townie", regardless of anything else about it. It's easy to do for anyone, and doesn't hinder scum to do it. In fact, since chances are at least one person will poke him for it, it's an easy way to Bard say he ended rvs AND give himself an easy target to go after. Although perhaps not quite scummy in of itself, I honestly do not see how such a thing would be "Extremely Townie".

[Serela]

add  to the last sentence "given that there are perfectly fine reasons for scum to do it as well."

[reVelske]

What's the point of these "longest post pending" notifications anyways? I'm sure we can survive without being told about that, just stop wasting breath and actually post already! :V

[FFMaster]

Waiting warmly for PX post. It's been 4 hours though...

[PX]

I want to see what Neo has to say for himself, otherwise, nothing has changed, PX is still the most suspect dog in this forsaken house. Though if Affinity choose to continue his AFK spree, I'm happy to get him out, death to all lurkers.

And where did that get us last game? Absolutely nowhere.

Also, I type up my posts while I'm reading and coming up with stuff, so you might see contradictory things, but I'm just overwriting what I say previously in my post.

I'm tempted to go "you know what, this is like beating a dead yukkuri, we not getting anywhere." But it's just so ridiculously simple and straight forward IMHO that I absolutely do not see where you guys are coming from with this entire argument, if I was in Roukan's position, I'd have ignore it as well. Fact is, Bard DID end RvS with his vote, exactly as intended too I bet. it's to push Doll closer to lynch to either (1) hope he'd crack under pressure, assuming he is a scum (2) see who would jump to his rescue, (3) force people to discuss the issue. It is a perfectly valid way to end RvS and Bard only reemphasized that point after you people harped on it, and he had every reason to reemphasize it. What if he placed a vote on someone else eg: me? Nothing would likely have happen and people would've probably carried on being silly for a little longer.

Okay, he ended RvS, we argue about RvS, and what does that prove? That we think that RvS ends differently, and that simply because we disagreed with the way he ended RvS, that we are bad? Someone has to come to the defense of Doll in order for discussion to come out of it, so what would have happened if Neo didn't? People would have just ignored that wagon, and continue on with joke votes. And we'd still have nothing then. So I see it that Neo and Bard both started a discussion, but Neo gets put in a negative light because of this. Actually, you seem to put a negative light on everything involving me and Neo.

@Affinity: You don't need to act it to advocate it. They vote me because they think I should've RVS'd and just sat back until someone'd eventually end it. This is bad logic and it moves into the territory of scummy reasoning to stifle discussion.

I don't think Neo was advocating RVS, because if he was, he would have just continued joke voting or jump on the Doll wagon. How is voting on someone who pushed a wagon to L-2 advocating RVS?

Doll: You'll have to start getting into the game, coming up with opinions and showing why they exist and backing them up. It'll help you improve in the long run. However, pushing him is kind of pointless, as he's a new player, and likely wouldn't help at all.

As for others, I agree with Roukanken about Serela's poor defence and would like to see him step up his game. He also still has that question to answer about why my D1 actions were "bad". PX's accusation against me re: ending RVS being a scummy action is still unexplained for.

Here

Okay, on to Roukanke[Z]

Bard gets points for producing the vote that moves us out of RVS. Neo seems to not be appreciating (or caring, if he knows and is acting it) the fact that early wagons - and the way people jump on them/react to them - are the best way to generate discussion. Protip, Neo - if no-one does something risky and gives people a reason to make a case, we'd never get out of RVS.

Way back from ED1, but I'd like to comment on this.
"and the way people jump on them/react to them"
What's bad about his reacting to it? Exactly what is bad about reacting to it? If nobody reacted to it, then we'd have still gone nowhere. Is it bad to actually go against somebody if he says that he ends RVS?

Topics of conversation do not magically appear out of nowhere. People have to give Town something to talk about, and if that doesn't happen we'll never move beyond random votes and we may as well draw our lynch targets out of a hat. Sooner or later someone would have to do what Bard did or we wouldn't be having a conversation like this one just now. Calling him out for what is in essence an extremely Townie action is sort of paradoxical.

You seem to forget that sooner of later, someone would have to do what Neo did or we wouldn't be having a conversation. If going against what Bard did was scummy, then WHY IN HELL, MICHIGAN WOULD ANYONE GO AGAINST IT IF IT JUST BRINGS SUSPICION AGAINST THEM?! You're just egging wagons against Neo and me, but just pushing the RVS argument as if having a different way of hunting scum than you is scummy.

##Vote: Roukanken

Also, why not tell people we're alive and having something coming up than just randomly posting?

NInja'd: I was busy writing on my guns in Black Ops w/ friends :V

[reVelske]

and that simply because we disagreed with the way he ended RvS, that we are bad?

That's not the point I was aiming for, I'm merely saying how this attack against Bard and his RvS-ending actions were unwarranted and there was no argument to be had. "Making people out to be the bad guys" were not my intention with this.

Someone has to come to the defense of Doll in order for discussion to come out of it, so what would have happened if Neo didn't? People would have just ignored that wagon, and continue on with joke votes.

But he did, and that's exactly what one would hope for, no?

I don't think Neo was advocating RVS, because if he was, he would have just continued joke voting or jump on the Doll wagon. How is voting on someone who pushed a wagon to L-2 advocating RVS?

Advocating RvS? And just who said that? Where did you get that from?

Doll: You'll have to start getting into the game, coming up with opinions and showing why they exist and backing them up. It'll help you improve in the long run. However, pushing him is kind of pointless, as he's a new player, and likely wouldn't help at all.

Actually, I've had several games where newbie scums made terrible scumslip upon pressuring. The tactics seem perfectly valid to me.

Just to check up on something, PX, did you know you weren't going to be lynch at the end of Day One?

[PX]

No, I said I loathe you all because I fully expected to die.

[reVelske]

Why did you not bother to roleclaim then?

[PX]

Is there really a point? If I died, the mod would have claimed my role. And it's not like it would have helped any bit.

[reVelske]

I wouldn't be so sure about the "not helped one bit" part.

Regardless, and this is just a personal opinion, "I hate you all" seem really like a scum dying message to me, I just feel that roleclaiming or going "well fucking done, you people just killed a town." would be a more typical dying townie response. I'm sure you are speaking the truth about not believing that roleclaim would've helped one bit, but still, when a town is bitter about being an impending day lynch, a response that emphasizes how the town is wrong and/or how specific player(s) has/have misled the town seem far more appropriate.

[Affinity]

@Roukanken (and reVelske)

People have nothing to work with and so have to make dramatic, poorly-constructed cases, which is what moves you out of RVS and into genuine discussion anyway.

Which comes out of nowhere.  Anything goes from 'third on the bandwagon is scum' to 'he has more votes than anyone else, let's lynch him', which, to Neo's and PX's credit, are effectively 'stupidly constructed cases'.  In this way, they just 'end' with something stupid.  I have never been in a game where RVS never ends.

Sooner or later someone would have to do what Bard did or we wouldn't be having a conversation like this one just now.

I'm sure many games in past history will discredit this completely.  E.g someone voted himself and no one was happy with it; someone was not happy about being bandwagoned and OMGUSed etc. Anyone can end RVS.  I did it before when I was scum and so did others.  Calling it 'extremely townie' is rather odd.

Why are you defending Bard and not yourself?  Wasn't I attacking you for jumping on the Neo wagon?  I can't argue with Neo not providing very solid stances from PX onwards (even now), but the fact is that you voted for the RVS thing which Neo countered alrightly in the post I linked.  But you did not refer to that when voting.  Add that to your passive scumhunting (not asking questions, etc.) and that's my case which you should be addressing.

===

Also, reVelske, tone of voice is something rather fishy to be getting into now.  Didn't PX repeatedly say how much Bard had misrepped him already before that bah post on D1?

Not sure about PX's case on Roukanken, but I second the question that needs to be addressed regarding all this obsolete RVS discussion; if no one reacted to Bard's pile on vote on Doll, wouldn't RVS still continue?  Shouldn't Neo and PX be credited with ending RVS, with all your logic, if theirs is the first case based on actual words in posts followed by a vote?

[reVelske]

@ Affinity: It's not so much the tone of voice, but more a case of expected posting mannerism in a given situation. If say you were in PX's position and is town (or scum), what would be your choice of words?

And being misrepped by Bard before bah post? Eh, how is that of any relevance?