Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F  (Read 226886 times)

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #390 on: December 19, 2010, 01:25:22 AM »
I find either way is useful. Due to Silent Selen's effective mag/mnd ratio, the damage increase of a mag patch over a mnd patch, while respectable, isn't quite what you'd expect compared to other non-offensive builds turned offensive for other characters. mnd patches take 0s from pretty much everything that isn't physical though, even at low levels. So.. I think a mnd patch would be preferable if your party is full of characters that aren't meant to take a hit, and need someone to tank hits in the back spots too without actually being a tank. Bear in mind a mnd-based patchy's mnd is SO high, that composite attacks to her are only comparable to those hitting tenshi. If you have multiple characters like Ran, Yukari, Yuyuko, Iku, etc along with some actual tanks up front, mag is probably ideal *shrugs*.
Though I do have multiple secondary tankers like that in my party, I also always leave Patch in the back until she runs out of SP (if she runs out of SP), and taking 0's from composites sounds too good to pass up, so I decided to build her MND with MAG-equips.

On a related note, I reset my character levels for my first save file (the one I'd been stuck on 18F for a long time now) and built characters with specific builds in mind (instead of "everyone is glass cannon") and timed out delays between tanks for switching out characters.  With that setup, I not only crushed 18F but realized glass cannon teams really are unbelievably terrible in this game. :V  I was struggling with Reimu 104 in the fight before, but it was an absolute curbstomping this time; only lost character was Rumia when she got hit by a Start of Heavenly Demise before I could buff her.

RegalStar

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #391 on: December 19, 2010, 05:56:16 AM »
Though I do have multiple secondary tankers like that in my party, I also always leave Patch in the back until she runs out of SP (if she runs out of SP), and taking 0's from composites sounds too good to pass up, so I decided to build her MND with MAG-equips.

On a related note, I reset my character levels for my first save file (the one I'd been stuck on 18F for a long time now) and built characters with specific builds in mind (instead of "everyone is glass cannon") and timed out delays between tanks for switching out characters.  With that setup, I not only crushed 18F but realized glass cannon teams really are unbelievably terrible in this game. :V  I was struggling with Reimu 104 in the fight before, but it was an absolute curbstomping this time; only lost character was Rumia when she got hit by a Start of Heavenly Demise before I could buff her.

How do you reset character levels?

Parallaxal

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #392 on: December 19, 2010, 05:59:21 AM »
That reminds me: I'm trying to start a NG+ with my file, but I'm getting that glitch were a bunch of characters start off with exorbitant amounts of exp. How do I fix that again?

Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #393 on: December 19, 2010, 06:04:20 AM »
That reminds me: I'm trying to start a NG+ with my file, but I'm getting that glitch were a bunch of characters start off with exorbitant amounts of exp. How do I fix that again?

Cheat engine. I believe that the first post has a save file that is un-corrupted though.
If you manually cheat engine it, make sure that status resistances and elemental resistances are normal too. I seem to recall they kinda got broken too for all the characters in page3+ or something

Pesco

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #394 on: December 19, 2010, 06:23:24 AM »
Fixing up a clean save file is just so :effort : :derp:

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #395 on: December 19, 2010, 06:53:07 AM »
20F powergrinding is awesome.  Up to Reimu lv131 already. :3

Current party:
Tenshi
Youmu
Alice
Patchouli
Yuyuko
Remilia
Reimu
Kaguya
Suika
Iku
Sanae
Reisen

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #396 on: December 19, 2010, 12:59:07 PM »
Hot damn! Utsuho has finally submitted to my party. At last, I have all the characters legally obtained!

She still tore through my party thoroughly. Fortunately, she didn't cast Uncontained Nuclear Reaction as much as she used to. Instead, she upped the ante with a few Giga Flares at the end.

Next goal: Being able to defeat the V3's other than Suwako. (she's the only one I managed to defeat, although the exp/skp wasn't worth the time invested in the fight)

Back to the grind wall.

Garlyle

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #397 on: December 19, 2010, 03:17:56 PM »
Oh boy oh boy, did Parallalaxal finally do a tier list?  8D

...It's a really good thing you specified that it's over the course of the full game.  I'm tempted to do one for the course of the main game, myself z.z; Maybe once I'm more awake...

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #398 on: December 19, 2010, 09:15:17 PM »
Yeah, tier lists are fun. :V

Since I'm on 19F/20F atm, I may as well do my own main-game list (like Parallaxal's, no particular order within tiers):

Top (MVP):
Patchouli
Tenshi
Iku
Reimu

High (Helped considerably to have):
Alice
Youmu
Remilia
Minoriko
Sanae
Meiling
Kaguya
Nitori

Mid (found somewhat/situationally useful):
Suwako
Chen
Rumia
Ran
Suika
Yuugi
Yuyuko
Sakuya
Aya
Yukari
Flandre
18F
Mokou
Orin
Wriggle
Komachi (more important before you have a significant amount of debuffers)
Marisa (high until you get Nitori, imo)
Reisen

Low (never found useful):
Eirin
Cirno

EDIT: Huh, Eirin and  Yuyuko actually both seem considerably more useful if you slap them with mag builds.  Eirin still seems lackluster, but her durability's pretty good for a mage with a (over)healing spell on the side.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 03:20:36 AM by Soylent Selene »

Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #399 on: December 21, 2010, 06:19:24 AM »
I tried eirin and thought she was pretty awful. Her overhealing ability got maybe 1 good use the entire game due to it's feature of unundoing the overheal after 1 hit,buff,debuff,heal, or move.

Parallaxal

  • Moon Sign "Theft of Dreams"
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #400 on: December 21, 2010, 07:19:07 AM »
I've got a new idea for a new team I'd like to try. I don't have too much time at the moment, though, so if anyone else wants to do it instead, feel free to do so.

I wish to design a team completely around Yukari's Spiriting Away. Obviously, this will be a team geared towards end-game power, due to its obscene SP cost.  I honestly believe it's a build-around-me spell that can be the best spell in the entire game if used correctly. I know I've made a few videos about it already, but I think I've merely just scratched the possibilities of what it can truly accomplish. So far, I've only used it for damage race all-or-nothing situations where I either win before the boss's next turn, or just flat-out lose. But what if I were to use it as a continuous engine of super-fast turns for not just attacks, but support spells as well? What if I were switching out the other three members without losing a beat of tempo with my combo, and still reaping close to 300% guage profit with each Spiriting Away cast? I think it's very doable.

One thing that I still haven't done in my videos yet is switch out characters as needed. There are lots of characters with 0% post-use gauge moves that I only want to use once or twice, not continuously like with heavy-hitting nukes. However, it's really not hard at all to fit in necessary switches. Observe:

Let's say I'm fighting Agastobrauma, and he decided to start off with Strengthen Jutsu. Agastrobrauma has way too much HP for me to kill it before it gets another turn, unlike Bloody Papa, so I can't just race it with damage. What do I do instead? My starting party will be Renko, Yukari, Yuugi, and Nitori.

1. Agastrobauma goes first, and uses Strengthen Jutsu.
2. Renko takes her turn, casts Galaxy Stop to spike Agastobrauma's SPD.
3. Nitori and Yuugi each take their turn, dropping their active guage to 0% with their power nukes.
4. Yukari casts Yukari's Spiriting Away. Battle guage filled since start of battle: 50%
5. Renko goes again, casts Debilitate.
6. Yuugi and Nitori each switch Yukari out and back in again.
7. Yuugi and Nitori still go before Yukari, and use their power nukes again.
8. Yukari casts YSA again. Battle guage filled since start of battle: 75%
9. Renko goes first again, switches herself out for Rinnosuke.
10. Yuugi and Nitori switch Yukari out and back in.
11. Rinnosuke goes first, because his speed is higher than Yuugi's and Nitori's. He casts World-Shaking Military Rule.
12. Yuugi and Nitori each use their power nukes.
13. Yukari casts YSA again. Battle guage filled since start of battle: 100%
14. Rinnosuke gets a turn, switches Yukari out.
15. Nitori's turn, switches Yukari back in.
16. Yuugi's turn, uses KO in 3 Steps (I let her instead of Nitori attack w/ 80% buffs because of Agastrobrauma's weakness to fire.)
17. Rinnosuke's turn, uses Start of Heavenly Demise (is this stronger than SGS with offense build after buffs? needs testing)
18. Nitori's turn, uses Megawatt Linear Gun.

So far, so good? Let's continue with a trickier scenario.

19. Agastrobrauma takes its second turn. For the sake of an example, let's pretend it uses its strongest spell: Enma's Lightning. It's powerful, but because of buffs/WND resistance/whatever, my party takes severe damage but survives.
20. Yukari's turn, casts YSA. Battle guage filled since start of battle: 125%
21. Rinnosuke's turn, switches out Yukari.
22. Yuugi's turn, switches Yukari back in.
23. Nitori's turn, switches herself out for Reimu.
24. Rinnosuke's turn, uses SoHD.
25. Reimu's turn. Casts Exorcising Border.
26. Yuugi's turn, uses KO in 3 Steps.
27. Yukari's turn, casts YSA. Battle guage filled since start of battle: 150%
28. Rinnosuke's and Yuugi's turns next, they switch Yukari out and back in.
29. Reimu's turn, switches herself out for Youmu (because Nitori is still injured).
30. Rinnosuke, Yuugi, and Youmu each take their turn, and nuke the boss with their massive delay nukes.
31. Yukari's turn, casts YSA. Battle guage filled since start of battle: 175%
32. Rinnosuke and Youmu switch out Yukari while Yuugi uses KO in 3 Steps.
33. Rinnosuke and Youmu each use their nukes.
34. Yukari's turn, casts YSA. Battle guage filled since start of battle: 200%
(Yes, I'm fairly confident I can get Yukari's SP high enough to cast YSA this many times by this point in the game. And probably a lot more times if I use some SP+ equipment.)
(No, Agastobrauma still shouldn't have its third turn yet if you've landed Galaxy Stop at the beginning. Enma's Lightning has a post-usage guage of 10%.)

You've now used 21 spells with 0% post-usage guage delay (not counting Yukari's Spiriting Away itself), and still have 3 characters with full guages ready to go for another 3 potential nukes and an active party with full HP, and you've only had to wait for the time it takes to fill the battle guage 200% (all characters start at 50% at start of battle). By comparison, if you had two tankish characters in slots 1-2 dedicated to swapping out 4 different nukers in slots 3-4, you could only use 14 such nukes in the same amount of time under perfect setup conditions, and you wouldn't even have anyone  with a full guage (or likely full health) at the end there. That's the power and potential of Yukari's Spiriting Away: if you can keep it going, the speed that it affords your party is far greater than any other strategy that I can think of. The fact that you can still flexibly switch in support and healer characters like Renko and Reimu without missing a beat only makes this even more effective.

I used to think that Yukari's Spiriting Away was only good for sprints. But now that I've considered adapting it for marathon battles in the late game, I'm wondering just how much more of its potential I've yet to explore. I agree that you have to build around it to exploit its potential; you can't just use it whenever you want and expect it to be effective. But as far as potential goes, I believe it has far more of it than any other spell in the entire game.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 07:29:34 AM by Parallaxal »

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #401 on: December 21, 2010, 10:03:35 AM »
That's a good point/idea. Though I'm thinking flandre or Eiki are probably better bets than yuugi for such a thing. Flandre I don't realy like relying on too much but if you're going to be "farming" turns over the enemy so much, she just might be viable out fullish time. Plus with her relatively good speed...well, you know.

You really can't assume debuffs will land 100% of the time though so there is that. Also, Yuyuko would also be a good character I rekon. I mean -10% turn-guage per nuke is really pretty pitiful, but with this kind of setup, it just might be viable with nitori (or maybe kaggy?).

Anyway, it's interesting to think about, but truth be told I'd never do this sort of thing, I'd think of it as terribly boring and tedious, even if I got it to work 100% of the time I'd really be pretty bored playing it through >=P.

With that kind of build though, Yukari just might be best off spending her level up bonuses on sp... (speed would be better if you can afford to use so much sp, but I don't use her so I don't know if it becomes an issue late game).

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #402 on: December 21, 2010, 10:23:30 AM »
A team built around YSA sounds good on paper. I'm sure it would work great, but you'd have to seriously build her up to last through each fight. Yukari isn't the most versatile one around... Not to mention, you'd have to really build up your nukes to make each YSA worth it. Would this strategy have Kaguya in reserve in case Yukari needs to recover?

On a side note, am I the only one that doesn't use the cheat engine around here? The grind wall is EXTREMELY thick at this point, but I'm too much of a purist (read: stubborn) to use the engine. In other words, will grinding on 30F pay off eventually?

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #403 on: December 21, 2010, 10:37:09 AM »
I'm cheat engined it myself before special disk came out. Did not cheat on my most recent post-specialdisk playthru. I kinda suggest cheating for a first playthru. If you love the game enough to want further playthrus, you'll know yourself if you want the brag to self rights of doing it without cheating after.

If you do cheat though try not to overlevel them. I find serpent of chaos and winner to be pretty entertaining fights, they shouldn't be ruined by high levels.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #404 on: December 21, 2010, 01:26:59 PM »
With that kind of build though, Yukari just might be best off spending her level up bonuses on sp...
I've done this for fights in the main game before, and I'd say it's probably safe to build her def or mnd and simply give her SP equips.

I've been using Kaguya for Buddha's Stone Bowl instead since it buffs, is less expensive, and only buffs one character (doesn't throw off the switching between Tenshi and Iku, and delay is short enough still that she can follow after a stickleback to let each nuker hit twice).  If you've got the SP for YSA and use a different party setup though, I can definitely see it being a fantastic move.

On a side note, am I the only one that doesn't use the cheat engine around here? The grind wall is EXTREMELY thick at this point, but I'm too much of a purist (read: stubborn) to use the engine. In other words, will grinding on 30F pay off eventually?
Define "using cheat engine".  I've used it for resetting stats when I want to try a new build/fix a character I ignorantly built incorrectly, but that's about it.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 01:28:54 PM by Soylent Selene »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #405 on: December 21, 2010, 02:23:21 PM »
Define "using cheat engine".  I've used it for resetting stats when I want to try a new build/fix a character I ignorantly built incorrectly, but that's about it.
Power levelling, mainly

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #406 on: December 21, 2010, 02:32:27 PM »
Power levelling, mainly
Then no.  Labyrinth gives you enough resources for reasonable grinding that it isn't necessary to cheat for it, imo (unless you're doing something silly like the Sanae solo run I'm thinking about attempting :V).  Special Disc made it easier with selling equips, too.

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #407 on: December 21, 2010, 03:50:09 PM »
Even with item selling, the grind required to stand a chance against the bosses in 30f after you reach 30f is obscenely long =(

Parallaxal

  • Moon Sign "Theft of Dreams"
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #408 on: December 21, 2010, 04:05:07 PM »
On a side note, am I the only one that doesn't use the cheat engine around here? The grind wall is EXTREMELY thick at this point, but I'm too much of a purist (read: stubborn) to use the engine. In other words, will grinding on 30F pay off eventually?

I've never used it. I still don't know how, actually.

Pesco

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #409 on: December 21, 2010, 05:15:34 PM »
@Para: That's an awesome idea you've got. I hope you can find the time to do a run of it. I don't think I can build my characters properly enough to pull it off. And I can't record :V

The main use of cheat engine for me now is to fix up borked save files, turn off encounters and freeze TP or SP for super grinding.

Parallaxal

  • Moon Sign "Theft of Dreams"
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #410 on: December 21, 2010, 10:44:29 PM »
The main use of cheat engine for me now is to fix up borked save files, turn off encounters and freeze TP or SP for super grinding.

That reminds me, I need to learn to use it to turn off encounters. I'd like to make some walkthroughs for the more difficult floors (7F, 17F, maybe 10-12F) sometime.

EDIT: Fire spells page finished. Also going back to fix the format of the earlier pages tonight.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 05:48:54 AM by Parallaxal »

Pesco

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #411 on: December 22, 2010, 06:26:54 AM »
It came up on IRC, I'll try explain it here.

Finding levelup rates: Search out the girl's HP. You should find 2 values right next to each other when you've narrowed it all down. The one with the lower offset is the girl's max HP, the other one is her current HP. Deduct 4 from the offset of max HP, this should be her recovery rate iirc. Deduct another 4 and you'll get levelup rating. It should be a value between 80 and 160.

Adjusting levelup rate: Levelup rates and exp required are in a straight 1 to relation. Assume the default value is 100%, choose your new percentage and you can make your own levelling difficulty.

NEETori

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #412 on: December 22, 2010, 09:21:08 AM »
That reminds me, I need to learn to use it to turn off encounters. I'd like to make some walkthroughs for the more difficult floors (7F, 17F, maybe 10-12F) sometime.

EDIT: Fire spells page finished. Also going back to fix the format of the earlier pages tonight.

I thought Phoenix Spread Wings was non-elemental?

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #413 on: December 22, 2010, 11:01:20 AM »
I thought so too... I also don't recall it ignoring defense so much... But more importantly, I'm pretty sure someone screwed with all the spells. I remember silent Selene was 2.25(2.25mag-mnd/4) and royal flare was 2.5(2.5-mnd/2) but that is NOT represented by 500 and 506% respectively.

That's not all, many spell formulate got fucked. Laevatien was 3(3(ATk+mag)-0.5(mnd+def))
WTF is this 600% crap?
I'm also pretty sure scythe that chooses the dead and ko in 3 steps were in the 630ish % range, not a flat 500.
Nitori's cannon was also 800% wasn't it? I thought only master spark had that 1.25 multiplier.

I think someone thought they did everyone a favor by replacing all the spell data by what is on the special disk database without realizing that it actually wasn't very accurate.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #414 on: December 22, 2010, 01:16:16 PM »
formulas stuff

I'm not sure where you got those formulas you thought are accurate from, but all of my sources (the Special Disk database, the JP wiki, and the Plus Disk omake text file, although that one would be outdated if anything) corroborates the one on the wiki page as the correct ones.

Phoenix Spread Wings is definitely non-elemental though. The mixup may be because the enemy version IS FIR elemental.

Parallaxal

  • Moon Sign "Theft of Dreams"
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #415 on: December 22, 2010, 03:20:45 PM »
Thanks for the correction. Removing Phoenix Spread Wings.

The formulas are accurate, though, as far as I know. If anything, it's the previous formulas on the wiki, with the wonky multipliers, that are incorrect. Phoenix Spread Wings is definitely DEF-piercing, as it's what I use to take out the Blackenmels on 15F.

CP3

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #416 on: December 22, 2010, 07:23:06 PM »
Phoenix Spread Wings is indeed FIR elemental. The correct formula however is 330% ATK - 50% DEF.

It has 165 ATK influence, 25 DEF influence, and a 200 damage multiplier. Unless I'm doing something wrong, this would add up to 2*(165ATK-25DEF). So 330% ATK - 25% DEF like it says (or said, since I just fixed it) in the wiki is off as well.

I've noticed a few damage formulas in the character pages are not correct according to the database - earlier I noticed Megawatt's def factor was off and fixed it. I'll go and check them thoroughly when I have time, since I believe the database to be the most trustworthy (or the only?) source.

EDIT: Fujiyama Volcano was also off. 200 MAG influence, 50 MND influence, 275 damage multiplier. 2.75*(200MAG-50MND) = 550% MAG - 137.5% MND.

All the other spells you've listed on all the spell pages are fine.

If I'm doing something wrong with the damage formula, please let me know (although I doubt it, because almost all the formulas I've checked work with the database's numbers) . Else I'll go ahead and fix all mistakes I find, using the database as the source.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 07:55:16 PM by CP3 »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #417 on: December 22, 2010, 08:53:28 PM »
Phoenix Spread Wings is indeed FIR elemental.
No, it's not.  It says right in the description that it's nonelemental, and the name shows up white when you use it.

CP3

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #418 on: December 22, 2010, 09:32:34 PM »
No, it's not.  It says right in the description that it's nonelemental, and the name shows up white when you use it.

Er. I meant to say "indeed non elemental", so disregard that part. :)

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #419 on: December 22, 2010, 09:46:13 PM »
I'm not sure where you got those formulas you thought are accurate from, but all of my sources (the Special Disk database, the JP wiki, and the Plus Disk omake text file, although that one would be outdated if anything) corroborates the one on the wiki page as the correct ones.

Phoenix Spread Wings is definitely non-elemental though. The mixup may be because the enemy version IS FIR elemental.

I'm just going by my memory on the "wonky multipliers" here, so it's likely not 100%. But I was really darn sure about some of the formulas being different. For example, I remember Kanako's water nuke was indeed good, and the most powerful cold nuke in the game, but I don't remember it having a better formula than moonlight ray...Or even royal flare for that matter.

I thought people agreed that the database wasn't very accurate compared to existing data on the wiki back when it came out though..

Anyway
Quote
The formulas are accurate, though, as far as I know. If anything, it's the previous formulas on the wiki, with the wonky multipliers, that are incorrect. Phoenix Spread Wings is definitely DEF-piercing, as it's what I use to take out the Blackenmels on 15F.

I use Remilia's Spear the Gungnir, and Marisa's Asteroid belt on them normally. Neither of those 2 spells have a wtf 0.12Def formula though (or whatever it was saying). Sure it was much better at getting past defenses than flight, or some other physical attacks, I just don't remember any spells in the game that had a smaller mnd/def multiplier than 0.25 (silent selene) without flat out ignoring it other than Falling leaves.