Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!

[tbax704]

It's the exe in the folder for whatever game(s) you're doing this with. It should be called custom.exe (or custom_e.exe if you've english patched).
For TH10, it's under Rendering Rate, and in 11 and 12, it's under Frameskip.

Thanks, but doing that only increase fps by 15, which makes the fps around 25. I guess I'll save up some money to buy a new RAM

[LHCling]

hurr

[Paper Conan]

hurr

How long did you last against Shou?  :ohdear:

[LHCling]

I just went "no" and restarted for that particular run.

[Nyyl]

I gotta say, this tournament has taught me to treat the lives I have in UFO more carefully, and it's drastically increased my overall performance in this game.

[Drake]

upside-down-question-mark dude you are hilarious for thinking that your replays could have been passed as valid at all

when somebody mentioned that you got to gfw extra's fourth phase i was like "ok" because it's indeed possible
of course i never actually took a look at your replays, which i now just did

oh my goooooood hahahaha

[Zengeku]

Looking at those replays indeed is hilarious. How could he expect nobody to realize? I'll just go grab them all from the replay site before he pulls a Riskbreaker and take em' down.

[Garlyle]

Oh hey the tournament's over.

Oh hey my GFW Extra score is still second place.

How the hell did that happen.

[touhoumaniac]

Btw, scoring challenge idea..... Touhou 13 (demo ver.)!!!!!!!! (when it comes out) :V

+1 i support this idea 

[Drake]

It is impossible to tell whether a replay is with artificial slowdown or not based on the replay. Nothing can be done to prevent it.

Hi. Explain. Prove statement. Et cetera.

[Erppo]

It would be harder, if the cheaters tried to do something to conceal their slowdown, instead of making it painfully obvious to anyone with any kind of experience of the games. The kind of jerky unfocused movement seen in those replays just screams TAS.

[Drake]

It isn't only jerky unfocused movement, that's at an even high level than what this guy was doing. He pretty much swam up all the bullets. Looking at the replay it just looks like he's tried the stage itself once or twice; he moves into waves utterly brainlessly and swims up everything. It's ridiculous to say that you can't prove it. Yeah sure technically you can't prove a record of a sequence of button inputs, but you don't need to technically prove tool-assists to know that it is indeed tool-assisted.

I mean you can even look at it like a scale of "ability" of tool-assists. I could go through easy mode of a Touhou game with tools, provide a replay and you wouldn't even be able to tell it was cheated after watching it. It's when you start making obviously daring (read: retarded) decisions, read bullet patterns and react at superhuman speed, twitch unfocused in ways that are simply absurd, etc that it becomes easy to tell if someone cheated. You can even get to the point where the person makes a bunch of awesome dodges, doesn't realize what comes next due to inexperience or sheer rashness, and dies by walling or confusion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmKMg92WFps

If I tried to pass these runs off as real, would you believe me? No, because it's fucking ridiculous. You can't "prove" I cheated, it's just glaringly obvious. This is just on a more grandiose scale than people who use tool-assists to cheat. Putting aside my frustration at people who cheat to complete a game, cheating for the purposes of receiving a social reward, whether it be praise or winning a contest or whatever, is just terrible. It's why I don't like telling anyone how to tool-assist Touhou, and why I generally don't like these kinds of information publicly posted.

[touhoumaniac]

Hi. Explain. Prove statement. Et cetera.

As long as truth can be hidden, the problem is undecidable... unless you find an oracle :V

Sorry for a poor explanation. I feel like there is a mathematical truth behind this problem, but i can't put my finger on it.

A person could estimate whether a replay is without artificial slowdown or not, but that would eventually turn into a witch hunt. The only thing that can be done against this unknowingness is to accept it.

[Romantique Tp]

Just watched his PCB Lunatic replay. He either doesn't know that there's a focus button or his focus button is mapped to some sort of slowdown macro.

edit: oops, it was marked as a no focus run. But either way, the point still stands.

[Shady_Ghost]

I knew that question mark dude was tas'ing once I watched his gfw extra run. I thought of calling him out but it's a p big statement to make and I didn't wanna cause probs. What an idiot though I'm glad he got wut he deserved. That being said I got first in a tournament for the very first time! o/

[chirpy13]

Yeah, that is a pretty low move... I don't even see the point behind it; there's no sense of accomplishment in beating people through slowdown (unless it was a TASing competition, but that's different).

Anyway, glad to have these games out of the way for now.  Considering we've had no repeats yet, I'm guessing next week will have... EoSD and PoFV, or some PC98s?  Or maybe some Ten Desires demo since it'll be out then .

[Drake]

A person could estimate whether a replay is without artificial slowdown or not, but that would eventually turn into a witch hunt. The only thing that can be done against this unknowingness is to accept it.

What? Nobody's going to search through mass amounts of replays just to attempt to find evidence of tool-assists, that's just insane. This is not an "estimate" at all, these are a series of very, very obviously cheated runs submitted to a contest. Yeah of course you get more suspicious of a guy that nobody's seen before and is suddenly submitting crazy good replays, rather than the guy that's been playing Lunatic and scorerunning for years, but that's a given and there's nothing wrong with being suspicious until your worries are debunked. I am not going to accept cheating just because you can't "technically" prove it.

[touhoumaniac]

What? Nobody's going to search through mass amounts of replays just to attempt to find evidence of tool-assists, that's just insane. This is not an "estimate" at all, these are a series of very, very obviously cheated runs submitted to a contest. Yeah of course you get more suspicious of a guy that nobody's seen before and is suddenly submitting crazy good replays, rather than the guy that's been playing Lunatic and scorerunning for years, but that's a given and there's nothing wrong with being suspicious until your worries are debunked. I am not going to accept cheating just because you can't "technically" prove it.

I think you misunderstood me or i didn't explain very well. I personally also feel that the person cheated. I also feel like if he would say that he didn't and would stick to it and would make a neat lie to go with it (example: "i've been playing touhou on and off for 9 years already", "that amazing extra is the result of 5 days of hardcore touhou play" and so on...), then eventually people wouldn't have the right in my eyes to accuse him in hacking.

1)Do you think that someone could legitimately more or less duplicate what was done in that extra replay?
2)Could a person fool everybody with replays that are actually tool assisted?

[ark]

I knew that question mark dude was tas'ing once I watched his gfw extra run. I thought of calling him out but it's a p big statement to make and I didn't wanna cause probs. What an idiot though I'm glad he got wut he deserved. That being said I got first in a tournament for the very first time! \o/

Don't be afraid to bring attention to something that looks suspicious to you. Other people can check as well to see if your suspicions were correct, and really the worst that could happen would be that you'd be wrong, someone giggles, and that's that. It would be a much greater shame if there was actual cheating that went unnoticed.

[Shady_Ghost]

Don't be afraid to bring attention to something that looks suspicious to you. Other people can check as well to see if your suspicions were correct, and really the worst that could happen would be that you'd be wrong, someone giggles, and that's that. It would be a much greater shame if there was actual cheating that went unnoticed.

Yeah next time ill bring more attention if i notice this again.  Still im just glad the dude got busted.  that lame cheater >.>

[Nyyl]

no guys

obviously the phantasmagoria AI has gained sentience and came here seeking a challenge
i say it's totally legit bro let's count him in

[Drake]

1)Do you think that someone could legitimately more or less duplicate what was done in that extra replay?
No. It's ridiculous. Maybe some other example of tool-assisted shenanigans yes, but I severely doubt one could pull off some of the stuff here.
It's obvious his field of vision changes very rapidly even early on in the replay and can dodge incoming bullets that normally you wouldn't be able to process immediately. Also no-focus tapping in odd directions that are obvious indicators of him trying to figure out where to go next. And more stuff.

2)Could a person fool everybody with replays that are actually tool assisted?
Yes. At the very least, one replay or two. Maybe not even a full game, but it's doable.

[LHCling]

Where were your UFO scores Zengeku? 

Outside of that, ty Naut for the safety net you posted  :V

[MTSranger]

1)Do you think that someone could legitimately more or less duplicate what was done in that extra replay?
No. It's ridiculous. Maybe some other example of tool-assisted shenanigans yes, but I severely doubt one could pull off some of the stuff here.
It's obvious his field of vision changes very rapidly even early on in the replay and can dodge incoming bullets that normally you wouldn't be able to process immediately. Also no-focus tapping in odd directions that are obvious indicators of him trying to figure out where to go next. And more stuff.

Agreed.
I mean, in Extra, he moved all the way to the opposite side AND dodged that impossible ring bullet many times no death.
Not only that, he freaking swam up bullets in Lily Black (total wall) and Luna's nonspell (also lolimpossible) in hard mode.

I can't really tell about the tapping in the odd direction (didn't watch carefully), but I'm convinced enough.
The sheer luck required to dodge ALL of those rings and red bullet spam in Extra section 3 makes it pretty much impossible.

[ebarrett]

edit: FORGET ABOUT IT.

[Zengeku]

Where were your UFO scores Zengeku? 

Unfortunately I never got around to it. The usual stuff involving messing up UFO chains and getting tired of loleasy stuff. :V

[touhoumaniac]

1)Do you think that someone could legitimately more or less duplicate what was done in that extra replay?
No. It's ridiculous. Maybe some other example of tool-assisted shenanigans yes, but I severely doubt one could pull off some of the stuff here.
It's obvious his field of vision changes very rapidly even early on in the replay and can dodge incoming bullets that normally you wouldn't be able to process immediately. Also no-focus tapping in odd directions that are obvious indicators of him trying to figure out where to go next. And more stuff.

Oh man, i was so expecting this kind of answer Maybe all i am doing is showing my understanding down others throat or maybe not. No offense, but the fact that you think its ridiculous to duplicate what was done seems to be common sense defying :wat:

So... thinking ahead:
I really wouldn't want to end up with being forced to duplicate what he did to disprove this. There is a simpler unprecise method of estimating the time it would take to make a similar replay. For that the game should be broken down to smaller parts. For example calculate your success rate of going trough that dense ring of bullets while also avoiding the fast bullets shot by one fairy. What you should find is that it is not impossible after all. Do the same for the other significantly different parts of the stage and then calculate the probability of pulling off a "perfect" run. Based on that the avg time it takes to do this could be estimated.

Time to unlock GFW extra just in case!  :V

[ebarrett]

Oh man, i was so expecting this kind of answer Maybe all i am doing is showing my understanding down others throat or maybe not. No offense, but the fact that you think its ridiculous to duplicate what was done seems to be common sense defying :wat:

So... thinking ahead:
I really wouldn't want to end up with being forced to duplicate what he did to disprove this. There is a simpler unprecise method of estimating the time it would take to make a similar replay. For that the game should be broken down to smaller parts. For example calculate your success rate of going trough that dense ring of bullets while also avoiding the fast bullets shot by one fairy. What you should find is that it is not impossible after all. Do the same for the other significantly different parts of the stage and then calculate the probability of pulling off a "perfect" run. Based on that the avg time it takes to do this could be estimated.

Time to unlock GFW extra just in case!  :V

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WVE106JQoU&feature=related

[Erppo]

Oh man, i was so expecting this kind of answer Maybe all i am doing is showing my understanding down others throat or maybe not. No offense, but the fact that you think its ridiculous to duplicate what was done seems to be common sense defying :wat:
...

You're missing his point. It's not about how far the guy got, it's about how he did it. The way he moves and handles the attacks is simply nonsensical and it should be obvious to anyone who has some actual shooting game experience. Real good survival players try to minimize their risks but this guy just rushes through everything and somehow manages to survive every time.

[LHCling]

Unfortunately I never got around to it. The usual stuff involving messing up UFO chains and getting tired of loleasy stuff. :V

Then why didn't you crank the difficulty- waait a minute...

No offense, but the fact that you think its ridiculous to duplicate what was done seems to be common sense defying :wat:

Are you one of those people, by chance, who looks around and thinks "wow these people around me are all [stupid / crazy]; I'm the only [smart / sane] person on this planet"? Because you really seem like you're one of those people right now with this statement.

With regard to your planning of calculations, I do hope you've had enough practice with both large numbers and small ones, because you'll be having a field day with those. Just because I feel like it, I'll say that the person has other replays for you to ogle over as well.

Outside of that, yes you completely missed the point (see: above post). Deducing a TAS isn't all about mathematics. Hell, it's doesn't have much to do with it, unless you want to get your hands dirty and tired from trying to work things out. Here, let me quote this for you in case you skimmed over it:

It's obvious his field of vision changes very rapidly even early on in the replay and can dodge incoming bullets that normally you wouldn't be able to process immediately. Also no-focus tapping in odd directions that are obvious indicators of him trying to figure out where to go next. And more stuff.