Author Topic: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!  (Read 129066 times)

Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #360 on: March 08, 2011, 12:33:20 PM »
Then why didn't you crank the difficulty- waait a minute..

Because that would add an additional layer of restarting as I would need not only optimal ufo collection but optimal survival play as well. Having to restart because of getting hit by some random bullet coming out of nowhere on Kogasa condemning oneself to yet another 5 minutes of busywork until you can get back to where you were at. Considering how much time it would take to get a decent run through to Stage 4 and not screw it up from there it would only mean more running through the same levels again.

Krimmydoodle

  • We must apply more SCIENCE!
Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #361 on: March 08, 2011, 12:36:12 PM »
For example calculate your success rate of going trough that dense ring of bullets while also avoiding the fast bullets shot by one fairy. What you should find is that it is not impossible after all. Do the same for the other significantly different parts of the stage and then calculate the probability of pulling off a "perfect" run. Based on that the avg time it takes to do this could be estimated.

Okay.  Let's play.

success rate of going trough that dense ring of bullets while also avoiding the fast bullets shot by one fairy

Since he hardly manages to pull this off with each wave, this is an irrelevant calculation, so let's modify this a little bit.  Instead of one ring of bullets and one randafairy with each wave, here's what he actually dodges through.

two randafairies
one randafairy plus one ring
two randafairies plus one ring
two randafaires plus one ring (death)
one randafairy plus one ring
two randafairies at the top of the screen plus one ring (dies to the ring, but survives the randafairies)

Let's just look at the rings for now.  Three ring dodges are made, and let's face it, at that speed, you're not reading that.  If you dodge it, it was luck.  I'll give it a 50% chance that you survive that, and that's if you're at the top of the screen.  Dodging three rings with this probability estimate, you get 12.5% chance.  But that's actually a generous estimate; I'm giving it 50% per ring because there's about 50% bullet space and 50% hole.  But to dodge it, you have to fit 100% into a hole, while clipping a bullet is death.  So there's less than 50% safe spot. 

I'll skip over the probability for single randafairies.  Those can be dodged.

As for pairs of randafairies, again, three successful wave dodges are made.  Each randafairy fires 90 blasts: one blast per frame for 90 frames.  Each blast covers about 20 degrees centered in a random direction from the fairy.  I'll give the probability that, if you're caught within the 20 degree coverage of a wave, and you're at the bottom of the screen, you have, again, a 50% chance to luckily squeeze through (I'm being generous again, because of the thing I mentioned about fitting into a hole versus clipping a bullet, as well as the estimate being more like 33% unless you're both at the bottom and in the opposite corner of the fairy, where it's closer to the 50% that I'm using).  There's a 95% (340/360 degrees) chance that a blast will avoid you altogether, and in the chance you're caught in that blast, I'll give 2.5 of the remaining 5% that you squeeze through, if you're at the bottom of the screen.

Two pairs of randafairies are successfully dodged at the bottom of the screen.  In other words, 4 fairies times 90 blasts each, 360 blasts total, each with a 97.5% chance of dodging.  The odds of dodging this would be 97.5% ^ 360.  The result? .01%.

That's not even counting the last pair of randafairies he dodges at the top of the screen, where the waves are dense enough that you can't squeeze through them.  Another 180 waves with a 95% chance of each blast avoiding you altogether, but without the squeeze probability.  Another .01% chance of that.

12.5% x .01% x .01%?  .000000125% chance.

Now, this is a whole bunch of theoretical crunching that calculates based on a player who more or less stands still, rather than a player moves with any sort of skill.  But we're talking about the probability of brute-forcing such a replay.  Brute-forcing implies no skill necessary, thus, I'm sticking with the assumption that any motions the unskilled player makes against rings and pairs of randafairies, which are impossible to read for the average player, are no better than standing still (and in the general case, standing still is better than unskilled motion, because if you stand still, a bullet only has to pass you once, while unskilled motion gives any given bullet multiple chances to hit you, for example, if you back up into a bullet that has already passed you by).



And like others have said, this is completely missing the point.  Just the first PoC death in the Extra stage alone invalidates all illusion of skill that he tries to pass as legitimate.  No one would think that was a good idea beyond a first, blind attempt, and if someone tried it due to a random brain malfunction, it's far too early in the stage to not hit retry.

Trust me, I'm the last person who wants to point fingers at cheaters, but sometimes you just have to accept that there are dishonest people out there, and that you can't just blindly believe everything you see to be the result of an honest man's effort.
Whether you're on Easy or you're a Lunatic, be damn proud of your accomplishments.  Don't let anyone convince you otherwise, for it's when you lose faith in your own achievements that those victories become defeats.

Garlyle

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Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #362 on: March 08, 2011, 12:52:56 PM »
Quote
And like others have said, this is completely missing the point.  Just the first PoC death in the Extra stage alone invalidates all illusion of skill that he tries to pass as legitimate.  No one would think that was a good idea beyond a first, blind attempt, and if someone tried it due to a random brain malfunction, it's far too early in the stage to not hit retry.
Hey, uh, in all fairness?  I take a deliberate death in roughly the same point in time during my run; I do it deliberately so that I can use the invincibility time to my advantage and also make it up to the PoC for item collection.

It is, however, the complete lack of focusing that really gets me.  Combined with the occasional instance of 'swimming up bullet waves' and the ending segment which is quite simply ridiculous... yeah.

I definitely find it suspect.  I don't think it's impossible to make it that far, but I'm definitely idling on the side of suspect just on the Extra replay alone.

Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #363 on: March 08, 2011, 12:54:15 PM »
@EX-beckett
haha  :D It's "shoving"


Are you one of those people, by chance, who looks around and thinks "wow these people around me are all [stupid / crazy]; I'm the only [smart / sane] person on this planet"? Because you really seem like you're one of those people right now with this statement.
More or less like that unfortunately... I understand that i am stupid too.(others are generally still more stupid)

I see that this turns into a pointless discussion about things that are far from the original issue.
Original message:
It is impossible to tell whether a replay is with artificial slowdown or not based on the replay. Nothing can be done to prevent it.

Not sure what i'm trying to say. I'll explain it again, but a little differently. It seems likely that people who cheat are among us and no one even notices. As long as the cheaters cheating level is above the attention and detection level of others, he/she will get away with it. It is impossible to tell with 100% accuracy whether a replay is with artificial slowdown or not.

Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #364 on: March 08, 2011, 01:11:31 PM »
Not sure what i'm trying to say. I'll explain it again, but a little differently. It seems likely that people who cheat are among us and no one even notices. As long as the cheaters cheating level is above the attention and detection level of others, he/she will get away with it. It is impossible to tell with 100% accuracy whether a replay is with artificial slowdown or not.

Its impossible to prove with 100% certainty but its still easy to tell when cheating have been used as long as we are talking about a certain level of danmaku difficulty

ebarrett

Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #365 on: March 08, 2011, 01:12:04 PM »
@EX-beckett
haha  :D It's "shoving"

Don't you "haha" at me, you fucker.

More or less like that unfortunately... I understand that i am stupid too.(others are generally still more stupid)

I sincerely doubt there's someone more fuckin' stupid than you out there.

I see that this turns into a pointless discussion about things that are far from the original issue.

There should be no discussion in the first place, except that you are FUCKING STUPID and for WHATEVER FUCKING STUPID REASON refuses to see the FUCKING OBVIOUS. Then people with GODLY PATIENCE tried to explain to you why obvious stuff is obvious but since your mission on Earth is to spread stupidity, you started spewing out nonsense and FOR THE LOVE OF GOD YOU WON'T STOP UNTIL DIVINE LIGHTNING STRIKES YOU DOWN or something.

Not sure what i'm trying to say. I'll explain it again, but a little differently. It seems likely that people who cheat are among us and no one even notices. As long as the cheaters cheating level is above the attention and detection level of others, he/she will get away with it. It is impossible to tell with 100% accuracy whether a replay is with artificial slowdown or not.

Except that that guy's cheating was ridiculosly obvious and you still tried to argue when he was disquilified. WHAT IS YOUR FUCKING POINT YOU FUCKING FUCKER.

Garlyle

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Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #366 on: March 08, 2011, 01:15:03 PM »
Quote from: miniaturized text
(others are generally still more stupid)
...Then I'd argue you don't understand it, but this is neither the place nor the time for such a thing.

Quote
I see that this turns into a pointless discussion about things that are far from the original issue.
Like here.  This discussion has a pretty major point - namely that I think this is the first time in the Tournament that somehow has been accused of cheating and been disqualified as a result.  Figuring out how we're going to deal with this in the future, whether or not this was a fair disqualification, is a pretty important discussion.  And it is completely connected to your original triggering statement, although that's hardly the only thing that people want to discuss here.


You are correct in that it's usually impossible to be absolutely 100% certain if a replay was tool-assisted.  Almost every replay using artificial slowdown created these days no longer leaves the evidence in the replay's slowdown counter.

In the abscence of obvious evidence, however, there are also a hell of a lot of us here who have watched hundreds, even thousands of replays, and taken just as many runs at the games themselves.  It's not impossible to notice moments of ridiculously improbable skill where exceedingly unnecessary risks are taken that not even someone playing for score would attempt, giving reason to suspect a run of being cheated.  On some runs, we can tell with a great deal of certainty that the individual has cheated.

A few people here probably don't even mind if someone uses artificial slowdown to clear the game on their own time; but if they do it in a competitive situation and it's noticed, we're going to call them out on it.

Quote
It seems likely that people who cheat are among us and no one even notices. As long as the cheaters cheating level is above the attention and detection level of others, he/she will get away with it
You're right in that it is possible to produce an artifically-slowed replay that nobody would notice, or even necessarily have attention drawn to.

However, "Maybe we're not catching every cheater, so we shouldn't bother trying to catch any" is a terrible mindset to take, and that's precisely what you've implied by making this statement within this situation.  Same with "We can't be 100% sure so we shouldn't do anything", which is another implication - which is again extremely unfair when we can still make the judgement in good faith in an effort to try to keep the playing field balanced.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 01:20:21 PM by Garlyle »

Krimmydoodle

  • We must apply more SCIENCE!
Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #367 on: March 08, 2011, 01:23:47 PM »
Hey, uh, in all fairness?  I take a deliberate death in roughly the same point in time during my run; I do it deliberately so that I can use the invincibility time to my advantage and also make it up to the PoC for item collection.

Shows that I'm more schooled in survival theory than scoring theory.  I'll take this one back, but as has been pointed out, there are other problems.  I won't say any more because I need to get to bed.
Whether you're on Easy or you're a Lunatic, be damn proud of your accomplishments.  Don't let anyone convince you otherwise, for it's when you lose faith in your own achievements that those victories become defeats.

Garlyle

  • I can't brain today
  • I have the dumb
    • Tormod Plays Games
Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #368 on: March 08, 2011, 01:30:47 PM »
Shows that I'm more schooled in survival theory than scoring theory.  I'll take this one back, but as has been pointed out, there are other problems.  I won't say any more because I need to get to bed.
It's a fair mistake to make.  It wouldn't have been a very good idea from a scoring standpoint normally either; in the case of this particular challenge though, it's one of the best things you can do.

In all honesty, if a death wasn't taken there and was instead during the deathrings, I'd be more inclined to believe him to have successfully survived the infamous third wave simply because an additional death there could've gotten him through another two sets of attacks, making a massive change to the odds involved (A death to the ring fairy's bullets at a corner of the screen will completely negate the next set of bullets).  But it wasn't, and there's the other little things that make it suspect, and that just makes the fact that he survived it even more difficult to believe.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 01:41:51 PM by Garlyle »

Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #369 on: March 08, 2011, 01:48:21 PM »
Figuring out how we're going to deal with this in the future, whether or not this was a fair disqualification, is a pretty important discussion

I'd say that if the person accused of cheating doesn't even have anything to say about it, he just makes it more obvious that he is cheating. If somebody is unfairly accused of cheating then that somebody would probably try and defend himself. Right?

theshirn

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Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #370 on: March 08, 2011, 01:50:36 PM »
I'd say that if the person accused of cheating doesn't even have anything to say about it, he just makes it more obvious that he is cheating. If somebody is unfairly accused of cheating then that somebody would probably try and defend himself. Right?
THE INNOCENT HAVE NOTHING TO FEEEEEEEEAR

or he's busy, or doesn't care; this is called jumping to conclusions, try not to do it

That said, lolobvscum cheating.

[09:46] <theshim|work> there is nothing like working for a real estate company to make one contemplate arson

Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #371 on: March 08, 2011, 01:51:12 PM »
It seems likely that people who cheat are among us and no one even notices.

Are you actually basing this on something or are you just throwing accusations around for no reason? You're basically implying that some of the current high level players are cheaters, since there's no reason anyone would submit bad cheated results.
"First of all, for those who've cleared the game, please try playing for more points." - ZUN

Tengukami

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Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #372 on: March 08, 2011, 01:54:18 PM »
I think if you're going to accuse someone of cheating, you'd better be sure, and you better be precise about your accusation. Just throwing around a general "well some of these guys are obviously cheating" is weak, and anyone making a general smear against the top scorers like this only make themselves look bad.

Think there's cheating? Who, what game, what stage, cheating how? Cheating is a serious charge. Be sure your ass can cash the checks your mouth writes.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #373 on: March 08, 2011, 02:03:54 PM »
THE INNOCENT HAVE NOTHING TO FEEEEEEEEAR

Exactly. If a person is a suspected cheater and doesn't defend himself, its basically the same as admitting things and I can't for the life of me understand how people couldn't care about being called a cheater while not being so.

helvetica

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Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #374 on: March 08, 2011, 02:12:56 PM »
Enough on this subject.  Several trusted and well respected people have went through and are damn sure these are tool assisted runs he posted.  If he wants to defend his replays he can defend them himself.  Stop shilling for him.  As for everyone else, drop it.  You're not helping the situation.  There's no need for foul language and being a complete asshole.

At this point it's obvious noone's going to take his runs seriously until he proves he's not using tools, so just drop it and move on.


Twitter: @hipsterfont | Discord: helvetica#0573 | LINE: hipsterfont

He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #375 on: March 08, 2011, 02:24:34 PM »
oh hai guise  :V

Vibri

  • yo, the beats are strong
  • but the night is long
Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #376 on: March 08, 2011, 02:31:50 PM »
it is 100% impossible to prove that I am not actually satan, the prince of darkness
therefore all men must worship me and my unholy power or risk being destroyed

Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #377 on: March 08, 2011, 02:33:01 PM »
Assuming that people could only get a high score by using slowdown is asinine. The people here that can achieve such high scores obtain them through strategy, dedication, and a ton of practice.

Now, I'm sure there is a possibility that some cheating goes unnoticed. There is no definitive way to prove that one does cheat through replays alone. By watching replays, we can only compare their play style and strategy against our own. Besides cheating, the player in question made the mistake of calling attention to himself during such a difficult challenge. No-ice EXTRA was so hard, people doubted if anyone could surpass 200,000. An unknown player managed to do so, and naturally, others would want to see this guy's play style. What they got was a series of questionable moves and impossible dodges. Personally, I cried foul when he followed the very first ring fairy down. He was practically on top of it. Effortlessly dodging Lily Black on hard was just more evidence against him.

Now don't misunderstand what I'm saying here. I'm not saying to be less obvious with cheating to avoid calling attention to yourself. I'm saying that cheating in a tournament is not only insulting to other players hard-won skill and practice, but also to your own growth as a player.

Sapz

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Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #378 on: March 08, 2011, 02:38:05 PM »
Dr. Strafe pretty much hit the nail on the head here, and on that note I think it's probably time to bring this back on topic and stop with the TAS discussion, it's been dealt with.

Since I don't think it was mentioned before, congrats to Dodgeball, Nereid, T, ShadyK and Naut Baity for the top spots this week! I suppose I'll have to think of something harder for next week. :V
Let's fight.

Vibri

  • yo, the beats are strong
  • but the night is long
Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #379 on: March 08, 2011, 02:40:49 PM »
I recommend a STB/DS no-pictures challenge. It is the next logical step up from no-ice.

Garlyle

  • I can't brain today
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Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #380 on: March 08, 2011, 02:44:02 PM »
Since I don't think it was mentioned before, congrats to Dodgeball, Nereid, T, ShadyK and Naut Baity for the top spots this week! I suppose I'll have to think of something harder for next week. :V
Lots and lots of people have been wanting to have an on-release Ten Desires competition, and I still support this.

Vibri's recommendation is also kind of neat but... how would we do it?  Survival based on time on a specific set of cards or something?

Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #381 on: March 08, 2011, 02:48:02 PM »
A blind Ten Desires competition sounds fun. Do you plan on giving any PC98 challenges?

ebarrett

Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #382 on: March 08, 2011, 02:49:49 PM »
As for everyone else, drop it.  You're not helping the situation.  There's no need for foul language and being a complete asshole.

The guy spews an unspeakable amount of nonsense to protect an obvious cheater, then not-so-subtly puts everyone else under suspicion of cheating, and you have the balls to tell me to "drop it"? That's some shitty law enforcement right there.

Barrakketh

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Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #383 on: March 08, 2011, 03:01:54 PM »
The guy spews an unspeakable amount of nonsense to protect an obvious cheater, then not-so-subtly puts everyone else under suspicion of cheating, and you have the balls to tell me to "drop it"?
He's the admin.  Of course he does.

Quote
That's some shitty law enforcement right there.
Didn't you read what TSO said?

There's no need for foul language and being a complete asshole.

Which, given your excessive swearing, was almost certainly aimed at you.  As for touhoumaniac, I don't think being a moron is against the rules here.  TSO already told him to stop shilling for the (alleged) cheater, so it isn't like you were singled out.

In any event, the subject is supposed to be dropped :3
Cheating? I cannot even wrap my head around the point of it. Wouldn't you know you had cheated? How on Earth could you maintain crisp certainty of your superiority to all others? And if you're unable to do that, what's the point of anything?

Iryan

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Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #384 on: March 08, 2011, 03:03:58 PM »
The guy spews an unspeakable amount of nonsense to protect an obvious cheater, then not-so-subtly puts everyone else under suspicion of cheating, and you have the balls to tell me to "drop it"? That's some shitty law enforcement right there.
His posts are unreasonable. Your post was inflammatory. This post of yours is both.
Old Danmakufu stuff can be found here!

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Vibri

  • yo, the beats are strong
  • but the night is long
Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #385 on: March 08, 2011, 03:08:40 PM »
Week 5 Scoring Challenge: 10 Desires, Youmu full run
Week 5 Special Challenge: Don't Have A Rage Attack While Reading Touhou Forums

theshirn

  • THE LAWS OF THE FIESTA MEAN NOTHING
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Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #386 on: March 08, 2011, 03:09:05 PM »
Moving along:

I, like so many others, support a Ten Desires week.

[09:46] <theshim|work> there is nothing like working for a real estate company to make one contemplate arson

Sapz

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  • It's time to burn!
Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #387 on: March 08, 2011, 03:09:53 PM »
The guy spews an unspeakable amount of nonsense to protect an obvious cheater, then not-so-subtly puts everyone else under suspicion of cheating, and you have the balls to tell me to "drop it"? That's some shitty law enforcement right there.
Dude, his argument has been shown to be incorrect be damn near everyone already - do you think people are still taking it seriously? Don't take the bait. At any rate, yelling at TSO about enforcement of a law which doesn't exist isn't going to help. It's incredibly unlikely that the situation will improve if you continue this argument. Drop it.

Ten Desires week could be interesting.
Let's fight.

Garlyle

  • I can't brain today
  • I have the dumb
    • Tormod Plays Games
Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #388 on: March 08, 2011, 03:11:28 PM »
Week 5 Scoring Challenge: 10 Desires, Youmu full run
Week 5 Special Challenge: Don't Have A Rage Attack While Reading Touhou Forums
Ahahahaha

I support this 8D

ebarrett

Re: Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!
« Reply #389 on: March 08, 2011, 03:13:57 PM »
Drop it

You guys won't let me lash out at rampant stupidity and cold war witchhunt tactics goddamnit