WE'RE NAKED AND IT JUST SAVED EVERYTHING! [Kill la Kill Thread]

[Stuffman]

See, I kinda have my doubts those messages are deliberate, I think you're just interpreting it that way. At the end of the day their goal is to sell Blurays to otaku, so they're making a crazy show about naked girls fighting. If it turns out to have good writing and a positive message then that's just gravy.

[Vento]

See, I kinda have my doubts those messages are deliberate, I think you're just interpreting it that way. At the end of the day their goal is to sell Blurays to otaku, so they're making a crazy show about naked girls fighting. If it turns out to have good writing and a positive message then that's just gravy.

this
why would they care about positive messages when those messages wont make money for studio compared to faaaanservice

ryuko pls blush more

[commandercool]

this
why would they care about positive messages when those messages wont make money for studio compared to faaaanservice

ryuko pls blush more

I don't know, I guess because they're competent writers and can do two or more things at once? I don't mean we should just dismiss the fanservice, but I don't follow the "This is porn, it has no content" line of thought.

[Vento]

I don't know, I guess because they're competent writers and can do two or more things at once? I don't mean we should just dismiss the fanservice, but I don't follow the "This is porn, it has no content" line of thought.

i never said there was no content outside the fanservice, just saying that all that body positivity isnt a major concern/factor since its not like it'll bring in the big bucks as opposed to aforementioned fanservice ._.?

[helvetica]

Because while I get the whole "sex sells" they're pretty overtly going out of their way to make fun of the people who are into it just for the sexy shots. Pretty much all the boys who drool over her are being portrayed as disgusting manpigs. Even Satsuki outright says it. Maybe I'm just reading the intent because I'd hate to think it is being done strictly for the gratuitousness :S

[commandercool]

i never said there was no content outside the fanservice, just saying that all that body positivity isnt a major concern/factor since its not like it'll bring in the big bucks as opposed to aforementioned fanservice ._.?

Okay, fair enough. It's more accurate for me to say I don't understand the "This fanservice is porn, it can serve no other intentional purpose"  line of thought. At the very least to me it looks like it's supposed to be way more funny than sexy. Even more so than say, Gurren Lagann, where it seemed like the comparatively light fanservice was supposed to basically be straight-up fanservice, I get the impression it's part of the comedy tone this time. It would be interesting to somehow watch an episode without it and see how much it effects the tone.

[♛ Apher-Forte]

{strap boing}

YOU SPIN ME RIGHT ROUND BABY RIGHT ROUND LIKE A RECORD BABY RIGHT ROUND ROUND ROUND

[Kilgamayan]

My only complaint about the fanservice is I wonder if Trigger could have gotten their point across re: body positivity and embracing femininity and such without it. Because while I definitely don't feel like it's being done just to have an excuse to have Ryuuko in skimpy clothing, it might have reached a wider audience without it. Right now it's very hard for me to go "hey this show is amazing and is a huge girl power thing but... everyone basically shows their boobs off the entire time" :S

In the general sense, I think the only way to address this issue with no "yeah, but..."s attached is to have the transformee choose the design of their new outfit rather than have the transformer powers-that-be design it for them.

[helvetica]

The more and more I analyze it the less and less I can defend the fanservice as having some sort of deeper meaning than using sex to get eyeballs. This is not saying that Trigger may not have a deeper meaning and positive message within, but that it's being clouded by the methods they are choosing to present it. I really hate to think they chose to present Ryuuko and Satsuki in the manner they are simply because "well neckbeards won't watch a show about strong female characters so let's add in boobs to attract viewers". All that's doing is reinforcing stereotypes that women only matter for their sex appeal, that in the end their body and their looks is what really matters.

What made me change my mind is how Ryuuko did not choose at any point her situation. She did not choose to put on Senketsu, she was led into the situation by the homeroom teacher and it forcibly put itself on her in a scene very very uncomfortably close to rape or sexual assault. Every time she transforms she is forced to expose herself at great discomfort and rather than the suit changing to accommodate her discomfort, she eventually is told she needs to accept it as it is, and in a further uncomfortable allusion to sexual assault, embrace it. This is a huge concept of rape culture, that victims are asking for it by how they look and how they dress and that they should not only forgive, but embrace their attackers for merely acting on the signals they gave. Senketsu was just looking to form a bond, he can't help it involved taking her clothes off forcefully and drinking her blood until she passed out! Just accept it and it'll go a lot easier on you!

Contrast this to Satsuki, who put on Jenketsu knowing what it would do and how it'd look based on how Senketsu treated Ryuuko. She is not ashamed of her exposure. But I'm ok with that, because in the end she chose it. She was fully aware of it and if that's what she wants then that's OK. But why is the "bad guy" given agency over her body yet being portrayed as some form of feminazi in every other aspect, when Ryuuko, who's supposedly the protagonist, is being forced to expose herself against her will and then being told she has to just accept it as a fact of life? There are some serious mixed signals going on. Satsuki, the hardcore unforgiving dictator, given full agency over her body, vs Ryuuko, the kind hearted person, who is forced to expose herself and like it in order to have any power in "society".

I will continue to watch it hoping I was right in my initial assessment and there is a deeper point to this, but right now I am really uncomfortable and hesitant to recommend it until I can safely say that it's worth it. Because right now I am getting very mixed feelings about it, which sucks because I really really like Ryuuko and Satsuki as characters. My rabid fangirling has been dropped to a tepid "please prove me right and don't feed the neck beards..."

[commandercool]

The more and more I analyze it the less and less I can defend the fanservice as having some sort of deeper meaning than using sex to get eyeballs. This is not saying that Trigger may not have a deeper meaning and positive message within, but that it's being clouded by the methods they are choosing to present it. I really hate to think they chose to present Ryuuko and Satsuki in the manner they are simply because "well neckbeards won't watch a show about strong female characters so let's add in boobs to attract viewers". All that's doing is reinforcing stereotypes that women only matter for their sex appeal, that in the end their body and their looks is what really matters.

What made me change my mind is how Ryuuko did not choose at any point her situation. She did not choose to put on Senketsu, she was led into the situation by the homeroom teacher and it forcibly put itself on her in a scene very very uncomfortably close to rape or sexual assault. Every time she transforms she is forced to expose herself at great discomfort and rather than the suit changing to accommodate her discomfort, she eventually is told she needs to accept it as it is, and in a further uncomfortable allusion to sexual assault, embrace it. This is a huge concept of rape culture, that victims are asking for it by how they look and how they dress and that they should not only forgive, but embrace their attackers for merely acting on the signals they gave. Senketsu was just looking to form a bond, he can't help it involved taking her clothes off forcefully and drinking her blood until she passed out! Just accept it and it'll go a lot easier on you!

Contrast this to Satsuki, who put on Jenketsu knowing what it would do and how it'd look based on how Senketsu treated Ryuuko. She is not ashamed of her exposure. But I'm ok with that, because in the end she chose it. She was fully aware of it and if that's what she wants then that's OK. But why is the "bad guy" given agency over her body yet being portrayed as some form of feminazi in every other aspect, when Ryuuko, who's supposedly the protagonist, is being forced to expose herself against her will and then being told she has to just accept it as a fact of life? There are some serious mixed signals going on. Satsuki, the hardcore unforgiving dictator, given full agency over her body, vs Ryuuko, the kind hearted person, who is forced to expose herself and like it in order to have any power in "society".

I will continue to watch it hoping I was right in my initial assessment and there is a deeper point to this, but right now I am really uncomfortable and hesitant to recommend it until I can safely say that it's worth it. Because right now I am getting very mixed feelings about it, which sucks because I really really like Ryuuko and Satsuki as characters. My rabid fangirling has been dropped to a tepid "please prove me right and don't feed the neck beards..."

Those are certainly valid complaints. The group I've been watching this and I have been talking about it after each episode so far, and have pretty firmly come to the conclusion that the show has firmly established itself, as far as we can see, as satirizing fanservice in anime as a genre. The transformation sequences in the second episode sealed the deal for us. But if you accept that premise, and it seems like many people don't there's still the separate issue of what it's okay to satirize and how. And obviously Trigger still has a lot of space left to sway their audience in pretty much any direction at this point, so maybe we'll change our minds, but we've been actively watching with these things in mind and will continue to do so. It's an interesting discussion anyway, no matter how it ultimately shakes out.

[JT]

A detailed breakdown of how creative decisions are made at Trigger:

Imaishi: Here's some crazy thing I thought of
Everyone else: Sounds awesome

I honestly doubt it's much more complex than that, and I would be frankly amazed if they were actually trying to make some kind of nuanced commentary on gender politics. I doubt the fanservice is otaku pandering either, since Imaishi has always been pretty bold creatively and seems to just make whatever it is he wants to make. Maybe the dude just likes sexy ladies. I know that will probably sound fucking insane to you, but it is a statistically significant possibility here.

I think that what's happening in this thread is that you're seeing this show through the lens of an elaborate political narrative you've crafted for yourself, and you're squinting to see how it fits into that narrative when in reality it simply doesn't. As Nate Silver would say, you're seeing a signal where there is only noise.

[commandercool]

A detailed breakdown of how creative decisions are made at Trigger:

Imaishi: Here's some crazy thing I thought of
Everyone else: Sounds awesome

I honestly doubt it's much more complex than that, and I would be frankly amazed if they were actually trying to make some kind of nuanced commentary on gender politics. I doubt the fanservice is otaku pandering either, since Imaishi has always been pretty bold creatively and seems to just make whatever it is he wants to make. Maybe the dude just likes sexy ladies. I know that will probably sound fucking insane to you, but it is a statistically significant possibility here.

I think that what's happening in this thread is that you're seeing this show through the lens of an elaborate political narrative you've crafted for yourself, and you're squinting to see how it fits into that narrative when in reality it simply doesn't. As Nate Silver would say, you're seeing a signal where there is only noise.

I can't say that I'm that familiar with Trigger, but there was some stuff going on in Gurren Lagann aside from "LOL robots random". Was that all Gainax's input? Gurren Lagann isn't the most cerebral show out there, and I doubt this will be either, but I don't know that it's fair to assume that they're just a bunch of noise and explosions happening with no intentional content at all. Unless that really is how all Trigger shows are, I guess. Are they?

[JT]

I'm not saying there is zero subtext or social commentary happening. But if you have to ask why something in this show is the way it is, odds are the answer is "because it's cool." A lot of the claims TSO has made in this thread are highly speculative and outlandish, and her track record of extraordinary single-mindedness when it comes to this type of thing only adds to my skepticism.

[Rin Kagamine]

Is Go Nagai involved in this at all?  Director?  Writer?  Producer?  Key Grip?  Best Boy?  Special Thanks?  Catering?

I ask because this is seeming more and more like nothing more than a big Go Nagai tribute show (something I am totally on board with but w/e)

[JT]

I ask because this is seeming more and more like nothing more than a big Go Nagai tribute show (something I am totally on board with but w/e)

I can definitely see the influence. IIRC the director explicitly singled out Mazinger Z as part of his inspiration for Gurren Lagann.

[Tengukami]

I haven't seen this kind of series bring out a discussion like this in a long time. Pretty solid ratings at ANN, too, fwiw. So this'll make great antidotal material for the dark winter ahead.

[helvetica]

A detailed breakdown of how creative decisions are made at Trigger:

Imaishi: Here's some crazy thing I thought of
Everyone else: Sounds awesome

I honestly doubt it's much more complex than that, and I would be frankly amazed if they were actually trying to make some kind of nuanced commentary on gender politics. I doubt the fanservice is otaku pandering either, since Imaishi has always been pretty bold creatively and seems to just make whatever it is he wants to make. Maybe the dude just likes sexy ladies. I know that will probably sound fucking insane to you, but it is a statistically significant possibility here.

I think that what's happening in this thread is that you're seeing this show through the lens of an elaborate political narrative you've crafted for yourself, and you're squinting to see how it fits into that narrative when in reality it simply doesn't. As Nate Silver would say, you're seeing a signal where there is only noise.

I don't disagree at all with this. I will fully admit part of what I'm reading as motive is from a vain hope that there is a deeper discourse going on, rather than just hopelessly reinforcing the stereotypes. It's also not an unsafe assumption to make given the history of both the current studio and the studio it was formerly a part of. Gainax is known for not only being "edgy", but for pushing the boundaries and deconstructing genres in a greater commentary on society. Imaishi was involved in not only TTGL, but also was a part of Evangelion and other more "thought provoking" projects, and it's not a stretch to think that some of that culture may have rubbed off on him.  If this was a show from KyoAni, I would not be entertaining such romantic ideas about it, because KyoAni has no history of doing anything but pander. Same as if this had come from Gonzo. The context is what gave me the initial thought, although I'm now tepidly awaiting conformation before continuing to push with it. Gainax is also known for pandering to the max in a lot of cases so it is potentially that Imaishi simply wants to watch ladies stab at each other and Ryuuko spread eagle every 5 minutes. In that case it's a disappointment and then the problematic parts have no further excuse, he's just perpetuating rape culture and objectification of women at that point. It would be extremely disappointing to me if that were the case, so I admit fully to hanging onto the narrative that there is a further point to this than just being an ignorant assbutt.

That being said, even if there is a deeper point and commentary and reasoning to why he's choosing to present the story in the manner he's chosen, I'm not going to belittle people who still find it uncomfortable. I recognize that sometimes in order to raise discussion, one must bear the "ugly truth", and to do so, may require demonstrating distressing concepts in extreme manners. The styling of the show leads me to believe that there is a deeper motive, that it isn't just a more extreme form of pandering. And even if in the end, we find out Imaishi just wanted to see boobs flop in the air and Ryuuko spread eagle on TV, he would have still created controversy and driven discourse. Not all controversy in media is self-created, sometimes it just happens when an uncomfortable topic is suddenly made very visible. Women being objectified in nerd culture is a huge source of discourse in the Western fandom right now, and it's unsurprising that such a graphic display of such is creating controversy and discussion in and of itself, even if that wasn't ever Imaishi's intent.

Either way, I'm holding my breath for further confirmation one way or the other. If it becomes apparent there isn't any deeper meaning to this then I will probably end up dropping it if it continues on its current schtick. As awesome as Ryuuko and Satsuki are as characters, the fanservice really makes me uncomfortable at times, and the rape culture messages are really unacceptable. But if my thoughts on the overall intentions end up being validated in some fashion, then I will definitely be thrilled, even if I may disagree with some of the methods used to discuss them. I would be more at ease pushing aside my discomforts and misgivings if the overall message ends up being positive. I do have guilty pleasures I enjoy simply for the eye candy, and there's nothing "wrong" with Imaishi doing so if that's what the fanservice (as ridiculous as it is) ends up being. The issue would be more with his allegories to sexual assault and rape culture that I could not forgive. The fanservice I'd find tasteless, and distressingly pushing a negative stereotype, but if the guy likes drawing sexy things then so be it, there's nothing really inherently wrong with that. I enjoy dark humor myself as well, and I will admit to being a bad person for chuckling at possibly racist or bigoted jokes, but I don't espouse those views nor even remotely support them in real life. I don't equate what people watch or consume as indicative of someone's actual thoughts and feelings. It's if they choose to act on such that determine if they're a bad person, not the things they associate with. I don't run around calling people sexist or bigoted for liking things I find problematic, unless they parrot and support those notions.

[HakureiSM]

I haven't watched ep. 3 yet nor really read the discussion here because no time, and Imma let you finish but のののののんーーーー

[Stuffman]

I'm actually really curious what they're going to do with Nonon. She's a total question mark at the moment, and she's designed a lot differently than the other female characters so far.

I kind of expect her to matrix dodge the whole fanservice thing, maybe even subvert it somehow.

[pasu]

overanalysing things you like take the fun out of them, right, why even  :derp:

off topic fanart! http://puu.sh/4X1sN.jpg

[Vento]

That being said, even if there is a deeper point and commentary and reasoning to why he's choosing to present the story in the manner he's chosen, I'm not going to belittle people who still find it uncomfortable.

i think you are

the fanservice really makes me uncomfortable at times,

referring to yourself?

and the rape culture messages are really unacceptable.

he's just perpetuating rape culture and objectification of women at that point. It would be extremely disappointing to me if that were the case, so I admit fully to hanging onto the narrative that there is a further point to this than just being an ignorant assbutt.

im surprised you actually got past episode 1, clearly anything remotely sexual means rape and pillage and mysogny even in that scene she was more focused on the point that senketsu was talking, not forcing her to wear him

I enjoy dark humor myself as well, and I will admit to being a bad person for chuckling at possibly racist or bigoted jokes, but I don't espouse those views nor even remotely support them in real life. I don't equate what people watch or consume as indicative of someone's actual thoughts and feelings. It's if they choose to act on such that determine if they're a bad person, not the things they associate with.

I don't run around calling people sexist or bigoted for liking things I find problematic, unless they parrot and support those notions.

you are doing this exactly saying that trigger is advocating rape culture, just because you didnt like them doing the uniform scene

I do have guilty pleasures I enjoy simply for the eye candy, and there's nothing "wrong" with Imaishi doing so if that's what the fanservice (as ridiculous as it is) ends up being.

so basically you're just trying to lie to yourself that they're not watching anime for what it -is-, aka fanservice; if you want social commentaries, go watch a commentary

[commandercool]

I'm actually really curious what they're going to do with Nonon. She's a total question mark at the moment, and she's designed a lot differently than the other female characters so far.

I kind of expect her to matrix dodge the whole fanservice thing, maybe even subvert it somehow.

I know, right? She's the only one who hasn't done anything yet, so you know when she does it's going to be cool or important.

overanalysing things you like take the fun out of them, right, why even  :derp:

Do not agreed. Talking about stuff is like 95% of the fun. Over-analyzing isn't really that helpful, but at this point it's not clear what over-analysis even is. Personally I'd rather have possible over-analysis than no analysis, at any rate.

[pasu]

it's not clear what over-analysis even is.

well in this case to me it would be TSO's walls of text  :V

[helvetica]

i think you are referring to yourself?

Uncomfortable as in completely unwatchable. I'm willing to set aside the fanservice if there ends up being a deeper meaning to all of this, but I'm not going to fault people who can't even if there is a greater social commentary going on. I've watched a lot of things that could be described as "visceral" in several different ways because it was used to express a deeper idea than just gratuitousness.

im surprised you actually got past episode 1, clearly anything remotely sexual means rape and pillage and mysogny even in that scene she was more focused on the point that senketsu was talking, not forcing her to wear him

Ignoring the cute little dig, I actually didn't even notice how problematic the scene was until it was pointed out to me. The fanservice was a bit much but the whole concept of the scene didn't click until it was pointed out to me. Watch again the part where she clearly says get off of me and he continues to undress her anyways.

you are doing this exactly saying that trigger is advocating rape culture, just because you didnt like them doing the uniform scene

No I don't think they're actively condoning rape, but they are perpetuating it with how they're going about dealing with Senketsu and explaining the whole schtick behind it. A big concept in rape culture is that the victim has to forgive her attacker and that it's the victim's fault they're chosen for sexual advances. She was powerless against her "attacker" (Senketsu), despite her pleadings she was forcibly stripped and put into an extremely revealing outfit that made her very very uncomfortable and gave everyone around her the chance to see her naked body, and in the end she's basically told he was just trying to form a bond and to love him since he can't help it (forgive your attacker). Oh and that the explanation why it's so revealing is that her dad made it (nice, the pervert dad troupe in use even beyond the grave).

At no point did I say that Trigger was advocating rape culture, just that they'd be continuing to perpetuate it with such imagery, and that to some people it may be uncomfortable or unacceptable. Again I didn't even notice the allegory until it was explained to me, that's how pervasive and insidious some of these things are. Once it was pointed out it has pretty much soured what was rabid fangirlism (and defense of its over the top fanservice). I'm just hoping they have a point to this instead of just being ignorant about it.

so basically you're just trying to lie to yourself that they're not watching anime for what it -is-, aka fanservice; if you want social commentaries, go watch a commentary

Anime is not "just" mindless entertainment and fanservice, anime can definitely be social commentary, even if it doesn't necessarily set out to be intentionally. I'm hoping that it is intentional, is that such a big deal? I still enjoy the show for the shallower things, but I'm hoping that the things that really bother me are being used to make a point rather than just there to appease to slobbering neckbeards. I'm tired of women being used as nothing more than sex objects in nerd culture, and worse, anything putting women even remotely close to equal requiring copious amounts of skin in order to appeal to the shallower nerds. Sorry I'm pointing out the problematic aspects despite the good messages I feel like it's portraying. You can enjoy your boobfilled mindless action movie and I can sit here and see if there's a deeper commentary being put together. If me finding a deeper thread to the whole scene being painted ruins the fun for you then that's your problem not mine.

overanalysing things you like take the fun out of them, right, why even  :derp:
well in this case to me it would be TSO's walls of text  :V

Sorry I actually like to discuss things intellectually instead of going OOH BOOBS WOW all the time. Other people seemed to have no problems discussing deeper concepts in the show when I was flailing in fangirl mode over it but now that I've found a few problems it's like OMG JUST ENJOY IT FOR BEING STUPID TRASH. Maybe I can do both at the same time? I know might be a weird concept but people can enjoy things for entirely different reasons and at the same time! I still love the hell out of Ryuuko and Satsuki and their hate marriage but the deeper connotations of some of the stuff they're pushing is tempering that enthusiasm significantly.

[helvetica]

Either way if you like it, like it for whatever reason you want. I'm not going to deny I really like a lot of the show. The art style is outrageously fantastic, the music is still really good, and the characters themselves are great. It's just... really awkward to watch because of the more iffy things being done with the story and I'm not going to deny that either :S. And if your answer is "oh just turn your brain off and enjoy it" I was until a few other things were pointed out that really made me reevaluate my fawning over the show. I would like to have my initial assessment right, or even just remotely correct. If it's not then whatever, I don't consider it some deep deconstruction of magical girl anime and just consider it another dumb action flick but with girls in really awkward outfits and really creepy dudes in the background.

And if you don't like I'm going into :wikipedia: about it then just ignore my posts because I'm going to do it. I can enjoy things for being dumb and recognize them for being dumb as well as look for deeper meaning if present. And if the deeper meaning isn't there, I'm not going to force it. But I really feel like it's being hinted at, both overtly and covertly, and that's what I'm discussing when I talk about the messages I pull from the show.

[Vento]

Other people seemed to have no problems discussing deeper concepts in the show when I was flailing in fangirl mode over it but now that I've found a few problems it's like OMG JUST ENJOY IT FOR BEING STUPID TRASH.

i thought JT was joking about the one-track mind thing but, nevermind
the earlier pages were all quite non-social justice powered (in fact the first half of page 1 is just reactions) mostly about character predictions and stuff, even then when Nietz talked about the subtle commentary it wasn't as strangling as :
 "A lot of the fanservice is done intentionally to make fun of it. "/" I wonder if Trigger could have gotten their point across re: body positivity and embracing femininity and such without it. "  you seem to like to state things like as if they're solid established facts which dont bring up much space for discussion. even /a/ with its constant bitching about the 3D has more discussion about the show than here lol

[helvetica]

Uhh no? I may have been overexhuberant with my praise at first and leaping to some conclusions but at no point did I assert that there's no room for discussion, or that my interpretation is the only one. Hell most of my reevaluation has occurred because it was pointed out I might be reading a lot further than what might be actually there.

And cut it with the sarcastic one liners and crossed out text. If you got a personal beef with me then give it to me instead of these snide remarks about "social justice powered" and other crap. Otherwise keep your commentary on the subject and not at me.

I latched onto this show completely out of the blue because I saw threads of a deep social commentary and deconstruction of some really dumb anime troupes. I'm mostly hanging around now because the art and music is still good, even if I jumped the gun and gave it far more credit than it deserved. I'm still gonna point out how fucking terrible some of the shit is because, well, it bothers me! To me, it doesn't have to be there unless there ends up being a deeper meaning to it, and at that point then the discussion turns towards more its effectiveness in getting the point across. As it stands now some of it is inexcusable to me, which sucks because I am very much a willing audience member that is being driven away, or at the very least, tempering her enthusiasm greatly because of it.

[JT]

I latched onto this show completely out of the blue because I saw threads of a deep social commentary and deconstruction of some really dumb anime troupes.

This is my whole point. You've gone looking for a specific message in this show because you view the entire world through the lens of far-left gender theory, and it leads you to go running up blind alleys and see patterns where they do not exist.

Have you ever heard of the book Expert Political Judgment by Philip E. Tetlock? It's an amazing book, and one that everyone should read. It's about a large study that was conducted over the course of 20 years to test the predictive accuracy and internal logical consistency of both laypeople and experts from a wide variety of backgrounds. Everyone scored pretty badly - overall, worse than even crude algorithms - and Tetlock didn't find much correlation between score and political stripe, or even score and expert status. However, he did find a major correlation between score and how much of a "fox" or a "hedgehog" you are, as defined by Isaiah Berlin in his famous essay. In Tetlock's study, hedgehogs scored dismally across the board, presumably because it's pretty difficult to see things in objective and non-ideological terms when you draw so much of your worldview from one central, unifying idea.

The reason why I bring this up is that, and I mean this with no personal disrespect, you yourself are one of the biggest hedgehogs I know: you have one big thing that you care an awful lot about and spend a lot of time pontificating on - you see small, ambiguous things as manifestations of a larger theory or struggle - you see the world in highly ideological terms - and you are very deeply ensconced in a well-established school of thought. You've made some extremely bold, ideologically-motivated judgments in this thread, and now, after they've barely even been called into question, you're starting to lose your spaghetti and get conspicuously backpedally and defensive, as usual.

Yes, the show could be sending a message about rape culture and body positivity or whatever. It could also be sending one about the oppressive conformity of Japanese society, a theme that has surfaced in Imaishi's previous works and makes a lot more empirical sense given his style and personal background. It could also be that, as I already mentioned, he just likes sexy women, as well as stylish action and slapstick comedy. It could be all or none of these things. Either way, your judgments aren't rational - they clearly have a lot more to do with you than with the show itself.

Basically, all I'm asking is for you to seriously examine how your own personal political outlook might be warping your impressions here. Not just of the possible subtext, but of the show in general, such as your implication that it's "stupid trash" if it turns out to not carry the message you hoped it did. Not everything revolves around gender politics.

[Vyrien]

Bravo, good show. Wot

Now that we've got those observations out of the way, I think it's time for the deepest and most difficult aspect of the discussion yet to commence.

KLK DEBATE

PURELY NSFW EDITION

CHOOSE YOUR SIDE (nsfw)

http://strawpoll.me/563819

PLOT

[helvetica]

This is my whole point. You've gone looking for a specific message in this show because you view the entire world through the lens of far-left gender theory, and it leads you to go running up blind alleys and see patterns where they do not exist.

Have you ever heard of the book Expert Political Judgment by Philip E. Tetlock? It's an amazing book, and one that everyone should read. It's about a large study that was conducted over the course of 20 years to test the predictive accuracy and internal logical consistency of both laypeople and experts from a wide variety of backgrounds. Everyone scored pretty badly - overall, worse than even crude algorithms - and Tetlock didn't find much correlation between score and political stripe, or even score and expert status. However, he did find a major correlation between score and how much of a "fox" or a "hedgehog" you are, as defined by Isaiah Berlin in his famous essay. In Tetlock's study, hedgehogs scored dismally across the board, presumably because it's pretty difficult to see things in objective and non-ideological terms when you draw so much of your worldview from one central, unifying idea.

The reason why I bring this up is that, and I mean this with no personal disrespect, you yourself are one of the biggest hedgehogs I know: you have one big thing that you care an awful lot about and spend a lot of time pontificating on - you see small, ambiguous things as manifestations of a larger theory or struggle - you see the world in highly ideological terms - and you are very deeply ensconced in a well-established school of thought. You've made some extremely bold, ideologically-motivated judgments in this thread, and now, after they've barely even been called into question, you're starting to lose your spaghetti and get conspicuously backpedally and defensive, as usual.

Yes, the show could be sending a message about rape culture and body positivity or whatever. It could also be sending one about the oppressive conformity of Japanese society, a theme that has surfaced in Imaishi's previous works and makes a lot more empirical sense given his style and personal background. It could also be that, as I already mentioned, he just likes sexy women, as well as stylish action and slapstick comedy. It could be all or none of these things. Either way, your judgments aren't rational - they clearly have a lot more to do with you than with the show itself.

Basically, all I'm asking is for you to seriously examine how your own personal political outlook might be warping your impressions here. Not just of the possible subtext, but of the show in general, such as your implication that it's "stupid trash" if it turns out to not carry the message you hoped it did. Not everything revolves around gender politics.

No you're right, it's a huge factor in my everyday life (both scholatically and in general) and it does very much affect my outlook. I appreciate the links (and the calm response!). I've just been worked up really hard and stressed in a bunch of other aspects and I kind of lost my patience and cool a bit and I do apologize for that.

As for the comment about "stupid trash", that I didn't really mean negatively. That was more of a poorly worded term of endearment. I used the term guilty pleasure to describe what I was talking about earlier, and I really should have stuck to that rather than change terms up, especially given how charged my arguments were getting.

I wasn't even looking for the message, and I didn't necessarily have it after my first viewing. I think the big thing that brought it out was trying to convince my friends to watch it with me. I had a complete fangirl moment and I just wanted others to join me in it. So in order to move beyond just "omg its just cool"  I started critically analyzing it to try to appeal to people intellectually. This only continued as the episodes came out and still gave enough hints for me to latch onto.

The biggest reversal came when someone pointed out that I was probably reading way too far into it, and then people I respect on tumblr began critically analyzing it and pointing out the problematic parts. I couldn't prove them wrong, I agreed with their conclusions. Which put me into a hard situation. We couldn't both be right, unless there was an even deeper meaning at stake! Or if there wasn't one, then that just means I'm wrong, they're still right and then I definitely don't have any good reason to enjoy this myself :S

Basically I started feeling like I was being shamed by people who's opinions I respected into making a defensive argument for the show. I recognized this at least at a superficial level and I was trying to explain even if my original hypotheses were wrong, that there were still a lot of other things Kill la Kill is doing right. It was just that then what I began to see as the "problematic" parts, would still remain, and have little excuse to exist. I just very poorly expressed it due to a lot of frustration I'm feeling from other sources right now, along with a compulsion to find "deeper meaning" in everything thanks to my mindset I'm put into daily (thanks class!).

Thanks again for calmly talking and pointing it out though :S and sorry for any trouble I might have caused flailing about.

e: After reading the essay (which was fascinating, thanks) I really don't think I'm a hedgehog in the sense that I only care about one issue only, but that I have a tendency to get a bit obsessed and one track minded. By living my daily life being stuck having to be critically aware of gender, along with the pressures of being an activist for it, have driven me to being a hedgehog. I'll save that musing for my personal blargh though and quit derailing. I just wanted to point out that I did read it :b