WE'RE NAKED AND IT JUST SAVED EVERYTHING! [Kill la Kill Thread]

[Stuffman]

or maybe a deconstruction as per Gurren Laggan.

TTGL isn't a deconstruction, it plays it so straight that it becomes a parody of itself.

A deconstruction is when you call attention to things that one would normally gloss over with suspension of disbelief.

[commandercool]

Just saw the fourth episode. That was... Amazing. Man, I'm still smiling. Great stuff.

And fuck waiting until Saturdays to watch this, I'm gonna pre-watch it. Apparently one of the other guys did, so putting it off isn't getting anyone anything at this point.

[Think Komachi with a Rifle]

TTGL isn't a deconstruction, it plays it so straight that it becomes a parody of itself.

A deconstruction is when you call attention to things that one would normally gloss over with suspension of disbelief.

It's like someone went through super robot tropes with a check list and dedicated one episode to each and then through them away for future episodes.

[Tengukami]

So! Just watched the first four episodes back to back.

This is pretty fun, for the most part. I had some laughs, the hyperbolic animation really brings FLCL to mind, and I really liked how they tease a lot of common, overdone anime tropes to the point of ridiculousness.

The fan service, fortunately, doesn't seem to overpower the series, and it is clearly parodying fan service in general, so it's easy to gloss over most of it. There are times when they beat a dead horse about it, but you can't have it all, right? Still, wish they could've not used sleep-rape as a comedy device. Because just yuck.

With the first three episodes setting us up for some grand confrontation (and subsequently leaving us hanging for Ryuuko's battle royale with the entire student body), a light-hearted comedy fourth episode would've normally been a let-down. However, the fact that this episode was a desperate life-and-death race to get to school on time was pretty damn funny, so I look forward to seeing what happens next.

I wouldn't say this is the series that will save anime. The direction could use some tightening up, and the action is so hyperbolic that I feel like I need to lie down after 24 minutes of this. But it is highly entertaining and funny, warts and all.

[Sagus]

krill la krill

i've been laughing non-stop for minutes

[Rin Kagamine]

krill la krill

i've been laughing non-stop for minutes

Put it in a bikini for maximum hilarity imo

[Tengukami]

"KLK is a powerful anime about the struggles women face as they mature, and it's also really funny and well-animated."

[Vento]

Every single time i see that collage of powerpoints, I feel this intense rage because it goes way over the point, like the writer doesnt even bloody know how being a(n average not overreacting ) girl feels like



Also why the hell is it spelt kamuY

[BT]

I do have to wonder why, if this is true, did they not choose any other way to convey this.

[Tengukami]

Every single time i see that collage of powerpoints, I feel this intense rage because it goes way over the point, like the writer doesnt even bloody know how being a(n average not overreacting ) girl feels like

I honestly don't think the author's interpretation is wildly alien to reality. Could it be that different women have different experiences of growing up?

I do have to wonder why, if this is true, did they not choose any other way to convey this.

My guess is a military background - they do love their PowerPoint.

[BT]

My guess is a military background - they do love their PowerPoint.

I was talking about Trigger.

[Tengukami]

I was talking about Trigger.

Who knows. Why did Van Gogh like those big, splashy paint strokes? Why did Jimmy Page like blues chord progressions? Why does Lorde choose to write a song targeting pop culture materialism? Stylistics and preferred means of conveyance, I reckon.

[pasu]

I honestly don't think the author's interpretation is wildly alien to reality. Could it be that different women have different experiences of growing up?
My guess is a military background - they do love their PowerPoint.

the powerpoint thing is... just a tumblr thing (they make ppts for ironic reasons)

honestly i think it's really just a case of overreading into it, i mean, there's one bullet point "instead of being helpless sex objects to be used by men, the women of KLK are empowered despite etc" the KLK girls are already strong, its not like they went from damsels in distress to superheroes

[Tengukami]

Even if it is "over-reading" - although how it's over-reading, I have no idea, as it really doesn't take much thought to arrive at this pretty obvious conclusion - is that bad?  People are going to enjoy things in different ways. Even if it isn't the artist's intent to convey a particular message, the fact that people can examine a particular issue through the lens of art is, to my mind, a good thing.

[Vento]

I honestly don't think the author's interpretation is wildly alien to reality. Could it be that different women have different experiences of growing up?

the reality that girls care about how they appear to others, more than the male gaze that the author seems to claim to automatically come in place when puberty takes its course?

[HakureiSM]

Yo I agree on the whole idea of artistic freedom and liberty of interpretation and everything but there's a somewhat defined line between liberal interpretation and shoving words into an author's mouth

Also any real-life elements that fit the idea of a "rape culture" are only worsened by the whole "omg rape culture" sentiment

[Tengukami]

Yo I agree on the whole idea of artistic freedom and liberty of interpretation and everything but there's a somewhat defined line between liberal interpretation and shoving words into an author's mouth

I totally agree, but in practical terms I don't think it makes a difference at all. I mean unless the author here is scrolling through Tumblr reading what Western anime fans have to say about KLK.

Also any real-life elements that fit the idea of a "rape culture" are only worsened by the whole "omg rape culture" sentiment

That's an interesting claim. If I understand you right, you're saying that reacting at an "omg" level to rape culture ... worsens rape culture? I'd be curious to hear how that works.

the reality that girls care about how they appear to others, more than the male gaze that the author seems to claim to automatically come in place when puberty takes its course?

I don't understand this sentence.

Also, sorry if my responding to every response is annoying. People are saying interesting stuff, where I can understand it. Also, coffee.

[Rin Kagamine]

The entire show is a Go Nagai tribute and Go Nagai was a virgin who loved titties. Pretty straightforward imo.

[Tengukami]

Yeah, I'm not even saying that this was the author's message (full disclosure: I do not think KLK is a statement about the male gaze). I don't think it's important what the author's message was, if anything beyond "wooo titties". If a person can enjoy a work of art, and see things that make them think about even tangentially related themes and issues, then no harm done. Hell, might even be a good way to talk about *~issues~* in a more interesting or fun way.

In short, people enjoy stuff in different ways.

[Edible]

The entire show is a Go Nagai tribute and Go Nagai was a virgin who loved titties. Pretty straightforward imo.

Yeah pretty much

I appreciate that people are looking for deeper meaning, and maybe it does have deeper meaning, but...

[JT]

Even if it is "over-reading" - although how it's over-reading, I have no idea, as it really doesn't take much thought to arrive at this pretty obvious conclusion - is that bad?  People are going to enjoy things in different ways. Even if it isn't the artist's intent to convey a particular message, the fact that people can examine a particular issue through the lens of art is, to my mind, a good thing.

Of course people can interpret things how they like. That goes without saying. It doesn't absolve them from criticism. I'll restate what I said on the Facebook page (which I'm guessing is where you saw that image): I'm pretty sure this person is just uncomfortable about the fact that they like a show full of fanservice, and they're making intellectual contortions in an effort to wipe away that discomfort.

To use a less politically charged example as an analogy: A prevailing interpretation of Hotline Miami is that it's some kind of commentary on violence in video games. The explanations behind this always pointed to a total of two things: a small and highly ambiguous bit of dialogue, and the simple fact that the game is full of extreme violence. A blind assumption was made that just because the violence was done in a stylish, tongue-in-cheek way, there had to be something deeper to it. While the interpretation was vague and all-encompassing enough to seem plausible, there was basically no evidence for it. So then why did people keep stating it as if it were obvious? Because they were made uncomfortable by the violence, which many people would view as gratuitous and tasteless, and were unconsciously trying to justify it to themselves and critics by painting it as something more than what it actually was.

This has the same feel to me. I mean, the person who made the image even specifically addresses it to people who are turned off from the show because of the fanservice. Why? Who cares what those people think? It's pure rationalization. I'm guessing it seems like an obvious and valid interpretation to you because a) you like the show, b) you dislike fanservice, and c) this interpretation happens to suit your politics. I think it's not obvious so much as convenient.

Also >kamuy

[HakureiSM]

That's an interesting claim. If I understand you right, you're saying that reacting at an "omg" level to rape culture ... worsens rape culture? I'd be curious to hear how that works.

I'm saying the value to everything is attributed by people, and the more you push an abstract morality idea, the more true it becomes. Nigger, for example, is  just a word to mean "black person". There doesn't seem to be any need or purpose in perpetuating the idea that there's some sort of inherent negativity to this word, but the fact that a vocal group of people insist so hard on this is the sole reason the word has become unflexible and held onto its apparent negativity. You hear a hell lot more about how nigger is a bad word, than the actual word being used negatively.

There's similar patterns everywhere, even in the very perception of time, and the idea of "rape culture" seems to me to go this way as well. The whole "rape culture" thing was created by two elements: actual rapists, and people seeing potential rape in fucking everything. I read something the other day that showed some data that said crime rates worldwide haven't really gone up, in fact it's gone down, and yet people are way the fuck more scared of being victims to crime than ever before. Same goes with rape, and "rape culture", and seeing and preaching that every portrayal of sexual elements ever is condoning rape and should be shunned and banned. Yesterday I had to hear a speech from a girl that tried to tell me how sexist and evil the porn industry is for featuring mostly women, and it took a bit of convincing to explain to her the basic supply-and-demand principle. An author can't write anything with a bare chest in it without a few dozen people screaming about the evilness of it. And nobody else would see anything like that if there wasn't those touchy people pointing it out. TSO has said it herself in this thread that she hadn't noticed a lot of the stuff until someone pointed it out.
So basically it just comes down to you see what you want to see. Let me point out to this interview and short footage of Dee Snider summing up my point brilliantly:
"Sadomasochism and bondage"

fake e: my god JT fuck you fuck you so much the fuck did I write this all for you just make me look like a fool you dummy

[commandercool]

The whole "rape culture" thing was created by two elements: actual rapists, and people seeing potential rape in fucking everything.

Without going into other parts of this post, which maybe I'll get around to later, isn't this kind of a chicken/egg thing? Isn't there at least a chance that the reason the rapes that allegedly are the cause of rape culture were caused by rape culture?

And let me just say that, while I don't think anything well-informed can be said about what the show does or doesn't mean yet since it's not over and may not have even gotten started, but I don't think the analysis of it is much of a stretch. I understand the "people are just trying to justify liking something with problematic elements to themselves" angle, but I'm not convinced that applies here. I watched Diebuster again with some people Sunday night, and found the fanservice in that to be way creepier than in Kill La Kill, but didn't feel that there was much more to it than that or the need to try to explain it. It made me uncomfortable, I would rather it wasn't there, I don't think it added anything, but I'm willing to recognize it for what it is.

So what's different about Kill La Kill? There's a reason people are talking about the fanservice in this show more than in most other anime, and that's because it seems to be presenting itself, at least to some people, as being something more than just fanservice. Why else would it be sparking this much conversation than if people were legitimately seeing something worth talking about in it? What else is there that makes it different from the fanservice in any other show? I'm seriously wondering, if you can think of reasons I'd be interested in hearing them. This conversation is interesting regardless.

Also, just for context, I don't have a problem with sex. I usually find fanservice distasteful, but I like (some) porn, and I don't just mean super soft stuff either. My taste includes some stuff that some people, who I would consider to be overzealous and uninformed, would almost certainly consider to be "rape culture". That doesn't mean that I think that the idea of rape culture is totally alarmist and without any basis, and it also doesn't mean that I think that everything that people consider to be rape culture is that. This isn't just an "all sex is bad" or even an "all sexual content is pro-rape" thing.

[Tengukami]

Of course people can interpret things how they like. That goes without saying. It doesn't absolve them from criticism. I'll restate what I said on the Facebook page (which I'm guessing is where you saw that image): I'm pretty sure this person is just uncomfortable about the fact that they like a show full of fanservice, and they're making intellectual contortions in an effort to wipe away that discomfort.

Respectfully, that's a pretty big assumption to make about someone's motivations. Maybe this is one of those "when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail" kinda things, or they're a hedgehog, mole or whatever, or they're a gender studies major who was bored with class one day.

And to clarify, when I said I found the interpretation "obvious", I did not mean that this was the message of KLK - as I said in this thread already, I do not think the author intended this message. What I mean  by "obvious" is that it's the kind of interpretation that a person could easily make by taking a surface glance at the show, without having to engage in very complex mental acrobatics. Sorry for the open use of "obvious".

Essentially, I don't see the harm here. Like, if I watch Spongebob Squarepants and come to some conclusions about anarcho-syndicalism, I'm not hurting anyone, at all. No one's enjoyment of Spongebob is ruined by this, and maybe it'll make me think of anarcho-syndicalism in a whole new way, even if this is not at all the message of Spongebob.

I find the whole "stop enjoying things the wrong way" thing really weird.

We're going to have to agree to disagree here, because a) I think there's a lot of hyperbole in how you're depicting the positions of other people (and in fairness, I do recognize that you often do this for the purpose of effect, and do not necessarily literally mean every word you use) and b) I do not think that criticising stuff we find repugnant or even bothersome makes a problem worse, which I think is false. I think rather that open, honest criticism of things is good. Everyone should be able to take part in the discussion on different forms and expressions of art. It's how stuff changes, and I have yet to see any evidence that expressing criticism of a Thing makes that Thing worse than it already is.

[commandercool]

I find the whole "stop enjoying things the wrong way" thing really weird.

Yeah, agreed. Maybe I'm not reading things with the right tone or whatever, but there seems to be a lot of "nobody is allowed to discuss this thing in this fashion" going around (and I don't just/necessarily mean here). I don't really understand the thought behind that.

[Tengukami]

I say that fully acknowledging JT's point that no one is absolved from criticism, by the way. I've just seen a lot of fan theories about previous series (Madoka, anyone?) that were met with amusement, laughter, intrigue and discussion, as well as criticism. Gender issues and KLK, though, just seems to be met with a rather monolithic response. I don't know why that is, and won't presume why. But that's how it looks to me.

[Sagus]

I think that the greatest hole in the talks about female empowerment being the message of this show is the fact that Ryuuko didn't actually choose to wear Senketsu; she was tricked into it by a (very creepy) man. Together with all the other creepy rape-y scenes, it's easy to see why many would think that the people seeing a deeper or more positive message in the anime are being naive or too hopeful or something.

Altough I agree with commander and Tengu; if this is the way people found to enjoy the anime, I don't see the problem in it, and until we get a definitive word from the creators stating the presence or lack of a greater message, it seems silly to say for certain "it's pure fanservice", too.

[Tengukami]

My take on KLK is that it is fun, weird, hilarious, intentionally over-the-top, and is best not watched on a public bus. Trust me on that last one.

[commandercool]

My take on it right now is that it's a satire, and that basically everything in it is satirizing anime tropes. And that doesn't just include the sex, it extends to every single element of the show. It seems to be too carefully constructed of a comedy to be taken seriously on basically any level, and that's a compliment.

[Sagus]

My take on it is that if it doesn't end with galaxy destroying sword swings and other gloriously over-the-top absurdity of Gurren Lagan level or above, it'll be highly disappointing.

and something between Tengu and commander's take, too.