Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!

[Sungho]

It really depends what you mean. He definitely didn't invent the concept of bullets surrounding the player and closing in, and he definitely didn't invent the concept of puzzle STG. He even made Maze of Love before this.

I was asking about the 'bullets surrounding the player and closing in all at the same time thing'.
Which game had it?

EDIT : Something close enough to say that "Yukari's 'Danmaku Barrier' is definitely inspired by this."

[KuroArashi100]

What does the character on the amulet bullets mean?
If it is even recognizable of course.

[Blue]

On a similar note, does anyone know the arrange that plays here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4JtspM-hlXc#t=1212 ? I fear this clip may be too short for anyone to recognize.

It's the one at 20:12, right? That's Empress of Dolls by cYsmix.

I'm not sure which one you're talking about, since the link keeps on sending me to a different spot in the video from 18-20 minutes each time.

[Ozzy]

It's the one at 20:12, right? That's Empress of Dolls by cYsmix.

I'm not sure which one you're talking about, since the link keeps on sending me to a different spot in the video from 18-20 minutes each time.

Yeah that's the one, don't know what's up with the link, it's doing weird things for me now too. Thanks!

[Biakmon]

Is there any info how big (I mean more particularly how tall) can Suika become when she uses her power? about 50m?

Also where did Hata no Kokoro live now?

Does Mekai lies inside Gensokyo territory and does anyone know whether Shinki also gains her power from faith?

[Sagus]

Is there any info how big (I mean more particularly how tall) can Suika become when she uses her power? about 50m?

As far as we know she has no limit. As in, it was never stated how tall she can make herself be.

Also where did Hata no Kokoro live now?

Good question. She trained in the Myouren Temple for a while in HM but I dunno if she's still living there.

Does Mekai lies inside Gensokyo territory and does anyone know whether Shinki also gains her power from faith?

Makai is another dimension, unrelated to Gensokyo. Shinki was introduced before the concept of "gods need faith to exist" was estabilished for Touhou canon, and she hasn't even been mentioned since MS, so we don't know if she gains power from faith.

[Limian]

Do we know how the Myouren crew ended up in former hell, how long they were sealed there and what they could even do down there? Why was Nue sealed along with Ichirin/Unzan, Murasa and Shou if she had no relation to them? And was Nazrin also sealed?

[Sagus]

Do we know how the Myouren crew ended up in former hell

Nope. At most we have this line from Murasa's profile: "Byakuren, the youkai saviour, had been captured and sealed by humans. At the same time, anything related to Byakuren was buried deep beneath the earth. Murasa, too, had been buried deep beneath the earth with the Tobikura." We know Ichirin and Unzan were sent down there too because Ichirin recalls the Underground as a place of their shame in HM.

how long they were sealed there

Same length of time as Byakuren was sealed in Makai, I'd assume; around a thousand years or more.

and what they could even do down there?

Who knows, it's never stated.

Why was Nue sealed along with Ichirin/Unzan, Murasa and Shou if she had no relation to them?

Nue wasn't sealed. She was just coincidentally taking a vacation in the place where that the Myouren crew was sealed, and got accidentally involved with the incident (from her profile: "She just enjoyed watching humans get frightened and imagine all sorts of strange things from afar. That was her daily work. Eventually she got tired of that and leisurely spent a long time deep beneath the earth's surface, but she got mixed up in the turmoil surrounding the geyser incident and appeared above ground once more").

By the way, Shou was never sealed either; humans never noticed that she was a youkai. As her profile puts it: "When Byakuren was sealed away, she was completely focused on carrying out her duties as Bishamonten. She kept the fact that she was a youkai a secret from humans. She had her regrets about this, but it would have been self-destructive to reveal her true identity". Where she was living before the events of UFO, I don't know.

And was Nazrin also sealed?

Shou wasn't, so it's likely that she wasn't either.

[Clarste]

Good question. She trained in the Myouren Temple for a while in HM but I dunno if she's still living there.

As of the final ending of HM she was staying with the Hakurei shrine. But the ending itself said that she would leave eventually.

[Starxsword]

Also where did Hata no Kokoro live now?

What Clarste said. The last place she was seen at was the Hakurei shrine. But it is unknown where she would be afterwards.

I would assume the Hakurei shrine currently, until she leaves.

[Biakmon]

Something I don't quite understand about the Vampire Incident.

- Has been stated/confirmed (not implied...) whether Remilia was involved or not in this incident?
If not, anyone knows whether someone may have asked ZUN about that matter during the AWA event?

Thanks for answering in advance.

[Drake]

Something I don't quite understand about the Vampire Incident.

- Has been stated/confirmed (not implied...) whether Remilia was involved or not in this incident?

She is the vampire, yes. There's really no question about this at all; the main reason the western fandom don't totally acknowledge this is that a previous shoddy translation of Reimu's PMiSS page implied that it could have been any random vampire, and for whatever reason it was a common thing to just reject Remilia being the vampire offhand. It spread absurdly far before being caught and nailed down properly, so the Vampire Incident is unfortunately still a source of confusion for many.

[Biakmon]

She is the vampire, yes. There's really no question about this at all; the main reason the western fandom don't totally acknowledge this is that a previous shoddy translation of Reimu's PMiSS page implied that it could have been any random vampire, and for whatever reason it was a common thing to just reject Remilia being the vampire offhand. It spread absurdly far before being caught and nailed down properly, so the Vampire Incident is unfortunately still a source of confusion for many.

Then I think it may be appropriate that someone knowledgeable about that matter (and who has free time + an wiki account) change the section of touhou wiki concerning Remilia accordingly cause I find still a bit confusing for some part.

Also Clarste, (although I don't find it appropriate for me to say that) but still if you could please tell me that the translation chapter 18 of WoHH is at least nearly finish. :ohdear:

[cuc]

The original Japanese text about vampire incident is vague enough to allow for various fanon interpretations in Japan. For example, there's a fanon where Remilia was the only one who signed the contract, and by its demand she killed off all other invading vampires.

I've carefully pored through all the related parts in PMiSS before, and one thing still bugs me: it says the SDM became notorious after the scarlet mist incident, suggesting it was unknown before. This can be construed as a very strong hint for Remilia being not involved in vampire incident. Of course it's easy to come up with several ways around that. I prefer to think SDM was only moved into Gensokyo after vampire incident.

[Tiamat]

The original Japanese text about vampire incident is vague enough to allow for various fanon interpretations in Japan. For example, there's a fanon where Remilia was the only one who signed the contract, and by its demand she killed off all other invading vampires.

I've carefully pored through all the related parts in PMiSS before, and one thing still bugs me: it says the SDM became notorious after the scarlet mist incident, suggesting it was unknown before. This can be construed as a very strong hint for Remilia being not involved in vampire incident. Of course it's easy to come up with several ways around that. I prefer to think SDM was only moved into Gensokyo after vampire incident.

It's stated that the SDM was unknown by "humans".  At least, in the translation at the endings wiki (er, or whereever it's stated).  One of Aya's news articles in BAiJR, however, has the prism river sisters hold a concert at the SDM, and the article is dated several years BEFORE EoSD, which pretty much proves that youkai knew about the SDM (and that the SDM existed) quite a bit before EoSD.

PMiSS never specifically directly says that Vampire is Remilia.  However, it does say in Remilia's section, "When one refers to vampire in Gensokyo, they must be talking about the Scarlet Sisters."  It'd be pretty stupid of Akyuu to say "When one says Vampire, one means Remilia" in one section, and then say "Vampire" without meaning Remilia in another section.  IMHO that's explicit enough, but no, it's not directly stating or confirming (in some interpretations) it, technically.

Some people might argue that if Akyuu really did mean Remilia for the Vampire Incident, she would have mentioned Remilia's name at least once in that article.  However, apparently not mentioning Remilia by name is accepted Gensokyo culture.  Even Sakyua's section in PMiSS only refers to Remilia as "the vampire".  And in the entire rest of the Touhou series, no one ever refers to Remilia by name either, always referring to her as "the vampire" in most cases, and "mistress" in the case of SDM residents. The only times people have ever referred to Remilia as "Remilia" instead of "the vampire" or "mistress" come from official sources before PMiSS (far as I can tell.  Yes, I did pay a lot of attention to whether or not anyone called Remilia "Remilia" in anything, and... no one ever does, after PMiSS. Except maybe Patchy but she wouldn't call Remilia "Mistress" or "The Vampire" for obvious reasons).  For whatever reason, with PMiSS, ZUN decided that it'd be an in-story cultural thing for everyone to never refer to Remilia by name, so in that regards, Akyuu not bothering to refer to Remilia by name in the Vampire Incident description makes sense.

As an aside, the Japanese wiki doesn't have text-by-text transcriptions of official works like the English wiki does (from what I can tell).  So I tend to personally take Japanese fandom with a grain of salt when trying to see if it implies what's canon and what's not.  Still, it is true that PMiSS never explicitly states that the vampire is Remilia. In my opinion, saying "When one refers to vampires in Gensokyo, one must be referring to the scarlet sisters" is pretty much just one inch short of directly naming Remilia anyways, but others' mileage may differ.  Hilariously enough, I woudln't be surprised if the English fandom had a better grasp of both Touhou canon and "what's likely Touhou canon that ZUN doesn't explicitly say because he stated he keeps some facts to himself or close friends" due to this.  Most Japanese wouldn't have access to the direct text that does things like show no one calls Remilia "Remilia" or the date of that BAiJR article (though they might be able to put two and two together if that Japanese timeline had the article in it. That'd take quite a bit of sleuth work, though).

As an aside, someone did finally get around to making a doujinshi of te vampire incident with Remilia as the vampire, showing that at least some Japanese fans feel that she is (of course, the youkai that seems set to stop her is Yukari).  The thing wasn't completed though..... I think.

[Drake]

そんな幻想郷に突如外の世界から力のある妖怪、吸血鬼が現れ 、あっという間に多くの妖怪達を部下にしてしまった。
(a powerful youkai from the outside, a vampire, appeared)

結局この騒動は、最も力のある妖怪が力業で吸血鬼を叩きのめし、様々な禁止事項を決めた契約を結び、和解した。
(beat up the vampire, and settled the matter by settling a contract arranging various prohibitions)

[...]

一番最初にそのスペルカードルールを使って異変を起こしたのか、大騒ぎした吸血鬼が起こした紅霧異変だと言われている。
(It is said that the first time those spell card rules were used in an incident was during the Scarlet Mist Incident caused by that rambunctious vampire.)

seems pretty explicit to me tbh

[cuc]

To summarize the answer to the original question: it is clearly the intention of PMiSS to suggest SDM as the only vampire invaders. However, the text of PMiSS has left out enough room that if someone wants to bend the words and imagine there are other vampires, they can.

What follows is less relevant hairsplitting:

This can be construed as a very strong hint for Remilia being not involved in vampire incident.

I meant, "not the sole instigator of vampire incident", i.e. there were several invading vampires, and SDM only became the vampire after the scarlet mist incident.

そんな幻想郷に突如外の世界から力のある妖怪、吸血鬼が現れ 、あっという間に多くの妖怪達を部下にしてしまった。
(a powerful youkai from the outside, a vampire, appeared)

一番最初にそのスペルカードルールを使って異変を起こしたのか、大騒ぎした吸血鬼が起こした紅霧異変だと言われている。
(It is said that the first time those spell card rules were used in an incident was during the Scarlet Mist Incident caused by that rambunctious vampire.)

It is possible to read the "vampire" here as referring to the species, not any particular person.

When read that way:

(powerful youkai from the outside world, the vampires, appeared)

(...the Scarlet Mist Incident started by a vampire which caused the earlier uproar.)

In this reading, Akyuu is treating the vampire species as a whole, and in the second sentence, the emphasis is on that the instigator of Scarlet Mist incident belongs to the newcomer vampire species, rather than some long-time resident youkai. This reading stands either way, whether there are other vampires or not.

(Smart observations)

All good points!

Hilariously enough, I woudln't be surprised if the English fandom had a better grasp of both Touhou canon and "what's likely Touhou canon that ZUN doesn't explicitly say because he stated he keeps some facts to himself or close friends" due to this.

It's true that due to necessary evils that violate either ZUN's guidelines or copyright laws, including the English wiki, foreign fans have significantly easier access than Japanese fans to many things (not limited to Touhou canon), especially wrt out-of-print materials like PC-98 games or old doujin. This is a distinction worth remembering.

[CyberAngel]

I'd just like to point out that there are TWO known vampires in Gensokyo.

[Kosachi]

There's actually three; Flan, Charisma-Break and Kurumi.

[cuc]

Kurumi's lake of blood is most likely the blood pool of former hell (one chapter in OSP; Koishi's HM vs. dialogue; the Hell of Blood Pool is a real thing from Buddhist lore). In that case, she technically doesn't live in Gensokyo.

What does the character on the amulet bullets mean?
If it is even recognizable of course.

It's not anything recognizable.

Speaking of which, some questions are due for a few stages themselves, namely Treasure Ship and Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum. For the former, it's whether it's the same thing as Myouren Temple (I'd rather believe it's something created from Soaring Vault's fragments). For the latter, it's where it's actually located now (no way in Higan am I believing that an underground cave can have a bright sky-like background and a huge lake with vegetation, over it just being moved to the surface). Those are just my theories, though, and I'd rather wait for some kind of an interview purely about HM.

People I know generally assume the Hall of Dreams has been moved to Senkai, as the stage appears very otherworldly. This would also explain Letty's presence.

As for the ship, the story progression in Nitori's story and Ichirin's line "why did you resort to such violence at the temple" seem to suggest the ship is separate from the temple. It's also suspicious that the stage is called "Treasure Ship Above Clouds", not "Palanquin Ship".

[Tiamat]

Yea, the fact that there are TWO vampires, and that Remilia's section says "If one refers to vampires that are known to exist in Gensokyo, they must be the Scarlet family living in the Scarlet Devil Mansion." instead of just saying "If one refers to a vampire, they must mean Remilia" or whatever means that any time the Vampire incident refers to vampires either as a species or as plural, it could (and IMHO, probably does, but that's just my opinion) mean both Remilia and Flandre, so there's no contradiction even in cases where it refers to the plural (far from it actually. We know, or at least, have good enough reason to believe, that Flandre came in with Remilia, so it'd be kinda odd if vampire wasn't used in the plural sense a few times.  ...admittingly, that might conflict a bit with the fact that Flandre never left the house until after EoSD, although I guess it could vary depending on if Flandre just left the house, or left the house grounds. In the latter case, hanging around on house grounds would technically count, which when I think about it was kinda the case in that doujinshi.

But well, yea, it is just one small step short of directly saying it, so there is technically wriggle room in the wording to say that it could have been a different vampire, albeit only a very little amount in my opinion. Of course, in that case, there would be the question of what happened to the other vampires (and possibly their followers, since it said the vampire(s) gathered up a bunch for the incident).  Remilia eliminating them sounds... harsh, lol.

I personally like the idea of it better as Remilia too, though, if only because it helps flesh out Remilia a bit more.

[Alcoraiden]

Makai is another dimension, unrelated to Gensokyo. Shinki was introduced before the concept of "gods need faith to exist" was estabilished for Touhou canon, and she hasn't even been mentioned since MS, so we don't know if she gains power from faith.

Even if Shinki did need faith to exist, presumably as the only known god of Makai, Shinki has everything she needs from the demons there. If you go by ZUN's word that "PC98 is canon but later games trump," then Shinki has never been said *not* to exist, so she does, but all gods need faith, so she does.

[Tiamat]

Is Shinki even the same class of god as the others? She seems like an entirely different "species" than Suwako and Kanako to me, what with her ability to create sentient life and all.  I guess her conversation with Mima might imply she is, but I'm not sure Mima and her (as well as her definition of god compared to the eight million gods) were on the same page, either. Assuming I'm remembering the ending correctly, the way the conversation went, Shinki might not even know enough about the eight million gods to determine if she was the same type as them, and instead thought they were related simply because they were both referred to as "gods".

[Sagus]

Her ability to create an entire dimension does imply her to be something greater than the other gods we have seen, yeah. Since no being since then has show such power, and since she's PC-98, arguing what exactly applies to her or not using our current canon is pretty much impossible.

[Zil]

I tend to think that she created Makai in the same sense that someone who plants a sapling "creates" a tree. It may have been a relatively mundane action, as far as magic things go.

IIRC, it's somewhat implied that she's actually kinda weak, as a few characters (at least Mima and Yuuka I think) make fun of her after beating her, etc. And there's the fact that she lost the fight in the first place, while having no apparent reason to hold back (no spellcard rules, no reason to oblige the heroine's request).

My personal impression is that the concept of "god" in her case is more or less just a title. She created Makai, so she's the "god" of it. Not much more meaning behind it than that, and certainly no implication of limitless power. Whether or not you want to retroactively apply the current definitions of what a god is is up to you I guess. I doubt that's what ZUN had in mind when he made her character though.

[Sagus]

One can always justifies her losing as "she didn't want to kill them for whatever reason" or "she didn't want to use her full power otherwise it'd destroy Makai completely". And the main characters make fun of everyone they beat. They're kind of asses like that.

I really don't see how creating a dimension filled with sentient beings (that are also explicitly stated to have also been created by her, so they didn't "evolve" naturally after Makai's creation) would be a "mundane" magic thing.

But, like most things from PC-98, the exact way Makai was created is not really discussed in canon, so one can interpret it as one wants.

[Alcoraiden]

Totally no justification in canon, but I just settled on "Shinki would have annihilated everything had she really tried" because she's basically omnipotent in Makai. Also, Reimu is just some person, and I'm guessing Shinki doesn't want to kill her just because she had the balls to challenge Makai's god. Also I think Reimu is the one who canonically solves all the incidents, so we can basically discount Yuuka, Mima, and even Marisa, but I think all of them are very fine having enough bluster to make fun of Shinki even if she can wipe the floor with them if she really tries.

[Biakmon]

Is there any indication how large the Scarlet library may be in the games?

Are the "rabbits" shown in "Inaba of the Moon and Inaba of the Earth" youkai rabbits or just normal rabbits?
I understand that the involvement of ZUN in that particular manga can be debatable but either way I still find them very cute personally.

Just to clarify something the entrance of Meki is located in a cave in the mountains near the Hakurei Shrine but the place "Mekai" itself lies in an entire different/separate dimension, isn't it?

[Sagus]

Is there any indication how large the Scarlet library may be in the games?

I think it's implied to be very huge because of Sakuya's time/space shenanigans, like the rest of the SDM.

Are the "rabbits" shown in "Inaba of the Moon and Inaba of the Earth" youkai rabbits or just normal rabbits?
I understand that the involvement of ZUN in that particular manga can be debatable but either way I still find them very cute personally.

Pretty sure all rabbits from Eientei are youkai, yes.

Just to clarify something the entrance of Meki is located in a cave in the mountains near the Hakurei Shrine but the place "Mekai" itself lies in an entire different/separate dimension, isn't it?

It's what the wiki (and presumably the manual, although I can't say for sure) says, although, in-game, the entrance looks a lot more like a hole in the sky to me.

But yeah, although there is an entrance to Makai in Gensokyo, Makai itself is an entirely different dimension.

[Zil]

One can always justifies her losing as "she didn't want to kill them for whatever reason" or "she didn't want to use her full power otherwise it'd destroy Makai completely".

I don't think so. It doesn't make any sense that she wouldn't be able to stop the heroine without killing her. She can't just beat her up or something? And further, why listen to her demands after that (i.e. put a stop to the tourism)? Even if you want to say she would have done that anyway (as it seems she will in Reimu's scenario), why then pick a fight with Reimu only to feign defeat?

And I really don't see where this "Makai being destroyed" thing is coming from. That's just insaneballs.

sentient beings (that are also explicitly stated to have also been created by her, so they didn't "evolve" naturally after Makai's creation)

I am extremely opposed to this interpretation of what she says. I admit I can't read the original Japanese or anything, but I don't see why you would interpret the translation so literally. It's akin to concluding that Rika built the ghosts in SoEW because she claims to have made all the enemies there. To say that no person or thing of any kind has ever been created in Makai by any means other than Shinki snapping her fingers is ludicrous. As far as I'm aware, this whole thing comes from Shinki saying that Yumeko is her strongest creation. If you look at her dialogue with Mima:

Oh, pardon me.
I'm the one who created Makai.
I am the god of Makai.
So you see, Yumeko wasn't
a golem or anything, she was just a
normal inhabitant of Makai.

I would take that to mean that she did not fabricate Yumeko from thin air, but that since she created Makai, she just views everything that comes from it as her creation. And that's just so much less silly.