Author Topic: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!  (Read 213301 times)

Sagus

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #570 on: November 12, 2013, 05:42:48 PM »
I always thought that the deal with Mokou was that her body is SO malnourished and broken from her complete lack of care with herself that even the normally non-lethal danmaku is enough to kill her.

Yes, youkai have lifespans and can die, we know this much.
Worth noting that usually they can only be permanently killed by magical/spiritual means, which's why they're so hard to destroy.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #571 on: November 12, 2013, 07:58:17 PM »
Unfortunately, due to Touhou's pro-wrestling style of conversation when it comes to duels, it's hard to know how serious everyone was. But it is worth noting that several teams decide "they don't have to hold back" in the pre-battle dialogue conversation explicitly because Mokou is immortal.  So the game DOES address the characters agreeing that they can use lethal force because Mokou is immortal.  It's just a question of how serious they were about that, since ZUN stated (and it's pretty obvious when you look at things like the Sakuya case mentioned above) that they typically aren't REALLY serious when they threaten to kill each other.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #572 on: November 13, 2013, 04:04:10 AM »
I always thought that the deal with Mokou was that her body is SO malnourished and broken from her complete lack of care with herself that even the normally non-lethal danmaku is enough to kill her.
Worth noting that usually they can only be permanently killed by magical/spiritual means, which's why they're so hard to destroy.
Basically, it is possible to kill them using non-magical/spiritual methods, but those methods are more recommended and the best, right?

Thanks in advance!

Sagus

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #573 on: November 13, 2013, 10:51:48 AM »
Eh, not really. I said "usually" mostly because, considering how varied Youkai are, there are probably some exceptions; however, generally, they are said to regenerate from physical damage extremely quickly. For instance, vampires are described as being able to fully recover from anything in a night as long as their head remains. Akyuu mentions that even if you split a youkai in five parts, they can heal right away. In one of his email interviews, Zun says that Yuki and Mai would be able to recover from physical damage completely in a few days, or a few weeks, if it was really serious.

I'd wager that, unless the wound is made by an attack that has meaning behind it (a spiritual attack, magic, things like that), they can regenerate any damage inflicted.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 10:54:27 AM by Sagus »
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #574 on: November 13, 2013, 11:39:01 AM »
Wait does that mean that others people apart form Yukari and maybe her own family could have also added/modified the contents of the Gensokyo Records and that the original contents recorded by the Child of Miare may have been changed throughout the millennium without the consent and/or notice of the Child of Miare?

My bad, I just confuse the gensokyo record with the gensokyo chronicles, forget that question.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 12:48:23 PM by Biakmon »

Sagus

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #575 on: November 13, 2013, 12:33:29 PM »
...what? Why would that mean that? I seriously don't get where you're coming from. There's absolutely no indication of anyone editing the Chronicles without the Child of Miare's knowledge.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #576 on: November 13, 2013, 12:41:36 PM »
In Ten Desires, after being beaten by Reimu, Seiga said something like "To be able to hurt someone enhanced by the rentan elixir, Gensokyo shrine maidens sure are something."

What is this rentan elixir? A quick Google search shows that it's an elixir of life that brings immortality, but this can't be the same thing as the Hourai Elixir right...?

game2011

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #577 on: November 13, 2013, 12:55:59 PM »
Eh, not really. I said "usually" mostly because, considering how varied Youkai are, there are probably some exceptions; however, generally, they are said to regenerate from physical damage extremely quickly. For instance, vampires are described as being able to fully recover from anything in a night as long as their head remains. Akyuu mentions that even if you split a youkai in five parts, they can heal right away. In one of his email interviews, Zun says that Yuki and Mai would be able to recover from physical damage completely in a few days, or a few weeks, if it was really serious.

I'd wager that, unless the wound is made by an attack that has meaning behind it (a spiritual attack, magic, things like that), they can regenerate any damage inflicted.
Still, I don't it means ONLY magical and spiritual attacks can kill them.  I'd say it applies more to high-leveled demons, but for lower-leveled ones, like Mystia and Wriggle, I don't think they can survive, like, having their hearts torn into pieces or blown up by bombs or nukes.

Again, I think it really depends on how powerful they are.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 01:04:25 PM by game2011 »

Sagus

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #578 on: November 13, 2013, 01:08:19 PM »
Maybe. Youkai are inherently "spiritual" beings, what with being born from humanity's fear and imagination. I'd say all of them are capable of regenerating any purely physical damage over time, their power only determinating how quickly they heal. But there's no indication for or against that in canon, anyway.

In Ten Desires, after being beaten by Reimu, Seiga said something like "To be able to hurt someone enhanced by the rentan elixir, Gensokyo shrine maidens sure are something."

What is this rentan elixir? A quick Google search shows that it's an elixir of life that brings immortality, but this can't be the same thing as the Hourai Elixir right...?
Pretty sure it isn't something like the Hourai Elixir, or a bigger deal would've been made out of it, I think. Maybe it's what Seiga used to become an hermit? It certainly isn't daily prayers and good deeds that keeps her immortal...
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 01:12:17 PM by Sagus »
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #579 on: November 13, 2013, 03:43:21 PM »
Basically, it's something like Chinese/Taoism Alchemy, the main goal being creating the elixir of life.
I'm quite sure this and the Hourai Elixir are different things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_alchemy
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #580 on: November 13, 2013, 04:53:53 PM »
I thought youkai were biologically immortal but could be killed if you tried *really, really* hard and were strong enough and/or used spiritual/meaningful attacks that were powerful. That does imply that they don't die by themselves, but maybe they just have an enormous lifespan.

Mokou gives no shits and probably just drives herself to death with every attack, though I have no real evidence other than it's obvious she hates being immortal and thus really wants to die.

Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #581 on: November 13, 2013, 05:00:36 PM »
Youkai are physically tough yet spiritually/mentally weak. They say this over and over again in SOPM. The scale of that surely depends ont he youkai (vampires are known for unkillability), but a youkai is very unlikely to die from purely physical damage. In WAHH, when Marisa got a big cut on her arm she wished she was a youkai so it would heal quickly and without infection etc.

Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #582 on: November 14, 2013, 11:53:03 AM »
In PMiSS/ Yama, "At the top of this organization, there presides 10 Yamas."

Are those 10 Yamas the 10 Kings? And Is Eiki Shiki one of those 10 Yamas?

Sagus

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #583 on: November 14, 2013, 12:04:04 PM »
In PMiSS/ Yama, "At the top of this organization, there presides 10 Yamas."

Are those 10 Yamas the 10 Kings?
I'd say so, yes. Wouldn't make much sense otherwise, I think, seeing as the Ten Kings are outright stated to be the leaders of the Yamas.

And Is Eiki Shiki one of those 10 Yamas?
We had a long discussion regarding this on the last thread. My stance is still no, she isn't; Komachi explicitly stated that Eiki was once a Jizou statue in OST, and as we know from PMiSS, Jizou statues from all over the country were turned into Yamas only after the Ten Kings became unable to judge all the souls coming to them effectively.

'Sides, the Ten Kings are named on the Yama article, and none of them have Eiki's name.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 12:07:29 PM by Sagus »
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Alcoraiden

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #584 on: November 14, 2013, 03:41:39 PM »
As much as I think it would be awesome for Shikieiki to be one of the heads, yeah, I'm going to have to go with Sagus. We already know who the Ten Kings are, and they existed long before the Jizou statues started being converted.

game2011

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #585 on: November 14, 2013, 04:14:22 PM »
Youkai are physically tough yet spiritually/mentally weak. They say this over and over again in SOPM. The scale of that surely depends ont he youkai (vampires are known for unkillability), but a youkai is very unlikely to die from purely physical damage. In WAHH, when Marisa got a big cut on her arm she wished she was a youkai so it would heal quickly and without infection etc.
Healing quickly doesn't mean immortal, and the latter wasn't what Marisa said.  It's also known in folklore that vampires can be killed.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #586 on: November 14, 2013, 04:57:39 PM »
It's also known in folklore that vampires can be killed.
This really depends entirely on what folklore you mean. Not even all of Europe has a consensus on vampire do's and don't's.

Are those 10 Yamas the 10 Kings? And Is Eiki Shiki one of those 10 Yamas?
oh god no not this again ...


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Sagus

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #587 on: November 14, 2013, 05:06:17 PM »
Healing quickly doesn't mean immortal, and the latter wasn't what Marisa said.  It's also known in folklore that vampires can be killed.
Healing quickly to the point that you can survive even after being butchered sure makes physical attacks useless, though. But at any rate, no one's claiming they're immortal like the Hourais, and I'm pretty sure Clastre meant that  "unkilabillity" in the sense of "nearly impossible to kill" (for instance, Remilia's description in IaMP says, as long as even one of the hundreds of bats that she can divide herself into remains, she can fully regenerate). It's just that it's pointless to physically assault them.

oh god no not this again ...
why not every thread could use some more eiki let's use three pages to discuss the hierarchy of the ministry of right and wrong again its gonna be incredibly fun :V
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #588 on: November 14, 2013, 05:48:18 PM »
Healing quickly doesn't mean immortal, and the latter wasn't what Marisa said.  It's also known in folklore that vampires can be killed.

As someone else noted, I meant "unkillable" in the non-literal sense of "very hard to kill". Also, Marisa did say that? WAHH chapter 11, page 7. "At times like these, being a human is so inconvenient. I guess if I were a youkai, a wound like this would heal in no time." Said in response to being forced to disinfect her wound.

Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #589 on: November 14, 2013, 06:49:39 PM »
... (for instance, Remilia's description in IaMP says, as long as even one of the hundreds of bats that she can divide herself into remains, she can fully regenerate).

- If I may ask where did you find that piece of information about Remilia in IaMP? I could not find it and it seems interesting.

Hummm strangely you people gave me an slight impression that maybe I should have asked that question about Eiki Shiki. You know most of the questions that I asked was kinda just out of curiosity about Touhou. I did read some of your discussions about Eiki Shiki but at that time I did not really understand what you were talking about (with Enma, 10 kings, 10 yamas, ministry of right and wrong, etc) nor I could find the question related to your discussions about eiki (i.e whether Eiki Shiki is one of the 10 yamas... Enma) so I just thought you were talking about something else and that why I asked my question now. If you feel that my simple question may bring about some kind of repetitive discussions that you have already finished discussing about feel free to ask me to delete it.

- How many chapter is Forbidden Scrollery supposed to be in total, 12 - 14?
- Anyone can provide a link about where I can find some info about the different emotions that those 66 masks that Kokoro represent? anger, hope, etc

Sagus

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #590 on: November 14, 2013, 07:07:05 PM »
- If I may ask where did you find that piece of information about Remilia in IaMP? I could not find it and it seems interesting.
It's on her profile for that game, that you can read in the her wiki page: "She may be weak against sunlight, but she has a pretty strong constitution, so as long as some bit of her still remains, say, a little bat, she can regenerate any time."

- How many chapter is Forbidden Scrollery supposed to be in total, 12 - 14?
- Anyone can provide a link about where I can find some info about the different emotions that those 66 masks that Kokoro represent? anger, hope, etc
- It currently has 12 chapters.
- Kokoro's wiki page has a list with the masks actual names, but for easy reference:

Young woman mask: Joy
Red demon mask: Anger
Old woman mask: Pathos, melancholy
Golden laughing mask: Humor, laughter
Mask that has a scarf with blue dots around his head: Cheerful
Monkey: Confusion, awkwardness
Yellow demon mask: Surprise
Fox mask: Determination, seriousness
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 07:08:37 PM by Sagus »
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #591 on: November 15, 2013, 01:00:01 AM »
i'll do the eiki thing tomorrow after my exams okay guys jeez

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Sagus

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #592 on: November 15, 2013, 03:19:47 AM »
three pages of eiki here we goooooooooooooooooooo
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #593 on: November 15, 2013, 03:32:55 AM »
i mean editing the various wiki pages on the subject, because that is very much a source of misinformation and confusion

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game2011

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #594 on: November 15, 2013, 04:52:08 AM »
As someone else noted, I meant "unkillable" in the non-literal sense of "very hard to kill". Also, Marisa did say that? WAHH chapter 11, page 7. "At times like these, being a human is so inconvenient. I guess if I were a youkai, a wound like this would heal in no time." Said in response to being forced to disinfect her wound.
I never said anything about Marisa saying that healing quickly means being immortal, assuming that's what I think you're talking about...

Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #595 on: November 15, 2013, 04:58:36 AM »
I never said anything about Marisa saying that healing quickly means being immortal, assuming that's what I think you're talking about...

Okay, I guess you just misread my entire post, and thought it was saying something it wasn't. I was just providing more evidence that youkai heal quickly. I never addressed the immortality issue at all.

game2011

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #596 on: November 15, 2013, 08:07:32 AM »
Okay, I guess you just misread my entire post, and thought it was saying something it wasn't. I was just providing more evidence that youkai heal quickly. I never addressed the immortality issue at all.
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In WAHH, when Marisa got a big cut on her arm she wished she was a youkai so it would heal quickly and without infection etc.
I thought you were saying something kind of irrelevant to demons being immortal or not when you mentioned that, so I brought up the "healing quickly =/= immortality" statement.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 08:10:11 AM by game2011 »

Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #597 on: November 15, 2013, 10:28:12 AM »
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However, since I've concluded earlier in the thread that the spell card rules really involve magical protection for the duelists, the problem becomes why is Mokou not protected from fatal wounds. Perhaps the protection is a smart system that automatically protects against severe damage, and as Mokou can't die, no damage is too severe for her to trigger the protection? This seems a bit too contrived for a theory without sufficient canon support.

If we are to assume Spell Card Rules provide some sort of protection, which with the evidence you supplied, suggests there is that possibility, then, we can assume fighters are more or less safe during Spell Card Rules.
However, it is too quick to simply assume Spell Card Rules provide absolute protection. In the Spell Card Rules itself, it mentions about not going all out. I would assume anyone relatively strong can break that safety net that Spell Card Rules does provide. I think of Spell Card rules as wearing protective gear, it won't save the other person if you are trying to kill them, but it will save them if you are competing.

Quote
I always thought that the deal with Mokou was that her body is SO malnourished and broken from her complete lack of care with herself that even the normally non-lethal danmaku is enough to kill her.

While we know that she doesn't care about her health, we also know that she is more than healthy enough for any kind of physical activity as seen by Inaba of the Earth and Inaba of the Moon.

Quote
It's just a question of how serious they were about that, since ZUN stated (and it's pretty obvious when you look at things like the Sakuya case mentioned above) that they typically aren't REALLY serious when they threaten to kill each other.

I agree, their seriousness in pre-battle banter is usually suspect. They usually just trash talk during their pre-battle banter dialogues. Their post battle dialogue seems to imply that they are using attacks that could be fatal. As seen in this post battle dialogue:
Yukari: Wow, look, she's still alive. She really can't die, huh?
Reimu: I'm seriously surprised. It looked like she was about to die a bunch of times.
Mokou: Ow, ow! I won't die, but it still hurts~.


Marisa's Afterword on her Grimoire gives a somewhat detailed explanation about Spell Card rules. This quote should explain the basics of spell card rules and how it should be used:
Like "Danmaku Bounded Field" and "Imperishable Shooting", most theatrical types tend to mirror the ability of the user so it's fun to watch. These kinds of danmaku exist for no reason other than the basic idea behind the spellcard rules. If the purpose was to annihilate the enemy, theatrical danmaku are complete nonsense.

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I'd say it applies more to high-leveled demons, but for lower-leveled ones, like Mystia and Wriggle, I don't think they can survive, like, having their hearts torn into pieces or blown up by bombs or nukes.

Wriggle is not a very good example, as she did beat up Reisen. But as some others have said: Even weak Youkai are more or less very hard to be hurt by physical damage. If the damage isn't spiritual in nature, it will likely not work. So, the use of stuff like guns, swords will likely do little without some sort of enchantment.

Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #598 on: November 15, 2013, 10:55:16 AM »
- It currently has 12 chapters.

- Kokoro's wiki page has a list with the masks actual names, but for easy reference:

1.Young woman mask: Joy
2.Red demon mask: Anger
3.Old woman mask: Pathos, melancholy
4.Golden laughing mask: Humor, laughter
5.Mask that has a scarf with blue dots around his head: Cheerful
6.Monkey: Confusion, awkwardness
7.Yellow demon mask: Surprise
8.Fox mask: Determination, seriousness
9) Mask of hope?

- I know the manga has currently 12 chapters from touhou wiki but will there be "more" (maybe a 13 - 14 chapter) is my question?
Or were you telling that the manga will have only 12 in total?

- What I wanted to know if there a link where I can find "all" (66 masks and not just 9 masks) of Kokoro masks and the different emotions that they represent?

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #599 on: November 15, 2013, 10:59:31 AM »
Question time: Is there an english translation patch for Touhou 13.5 and 14 yet?

Is there any detailed information regarding the 4 devas?
Still waiting for a good sig. image