Author Topic: Selling fanfiction is illegal?  (Read 25917 times)

TakuTaku

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Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« on: January 15, 2011, 03:24:54 PM »
Why is selling fanfiction illegal? If it is illegal, then shouldn't doujinshi and fanart be placed under this umbrella?

I mean, I understand how people can get away with comissioned fanworks because the commissioner is simply paying for the service of getting whatever he wants drawn. The commissioned artist can say that he is paid for his service but not for the piece itself.

But this just confuses me more, because selling doujinshi and fanart is seen as normal and not really frowned upon. Comiket does still exist. But aren't doujins just fanfics turned into comics? Or does this all just apply in the west? Since, well... I heard that Otakon actually attempted to ban selling fanart in their Artist Alley.

Fanfaction, guys. Fanfiction. Why is it so wrong to sell fanfiction when fanart and fancomics are the same thing? But drawn?


So yeah, I turn to you guys for some opinions and schoolin'

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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2011, 04:08:40 PM »
Do you mean other people's fanfiction? Or your own? If it's someone else's, then the reason you can't sell it is obvious.

In addition, is it fanfiction based off someone else's material? If it's someone else's material, then, again, you can't sell it for obvious reasons.

Otherwise, there is nothing anyone can do from selling your stuff.

TakuTaku

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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2011, 04:12:53 PM »
Let's say I wrote a Harry Potter fanfic and decided to sell it, then it would be considered illegal right? Because I'm totally making money off JK Rowling's characters and universe.

But then... why is that illegal when we have people selling doujinshi? Isn't it the same thing? People are still making money off other people's material.

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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2011, 04:13:51 PM »
Since, well... I heard that Otakon actually attempted to ban selling fanart in their Artist Alley.

No, not really.

Quote
The following items are prohibited from sale within The Alley:
Any work with copyrighted logos, regardless of whether or not the work is original.
Mass produced* prints of art depicting licensed characters.
Buttons, pins, hats, or t-shirts bearing official character likenesses**. If an artist has, and can produce proof of, explicit permission from the copyright holder to use, then the items will be allowed. This will be determined at the discretion of the Department Head of The Alley, in consultation with all other necessary parties.
Photoshopped, traced, or copied characters in recognizable poses but with different backgrounds.
?Knockoff? or bootleg merchandise of any kind (including but not limited to: videos recorded on blank videotapes with printed labels; homemade DVDs, pirated copies of any titles that have been released commercially in the United States, Japan, or elsewhere, titles taped off the air in Japan, and any fan-subs).
Any posters, idol cards, etc., which read ?Kodak? ?Fuji?, etc. on the back.
Unlicensed reproductions of any products actually released by an American company.
Food, snacks or beverages.
Legally imported merchandise or legitimate US products. This includes, but is not limited to: wall scrolls, sharpies, art supplies, duck tape, glow sticks etc.

* Our policy is amended to clarify that, for fan art (including but not limited to: doujinshi, fan art prints and buttons), up to 10 copies of a single piece are allowed, unless that item is otherwise explicitly disallowed. This is also the standard by which the Alley staff will define ?mass production?. The total number of pieces of fan art sold will not exceed 200.

** Official Character Likeness is defined as the actual picture of a licensed character, vehicle, etc. produced by the copyright holder. Fan created drawings do not violate this rule.

TakuTaku

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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2011, 04:23:02 PM »
That was really insightful


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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2011, 04:25:29 PM »
IIRC unauthorized doujinshi is also illegal, it's just that japanese companies usually see them as free promotion, so they don't really care if you sell your fan-made stuff.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2011, 04:27:21 PM by Master Bigode »

TakuTaku

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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2011, 04:36:41 PM »
So I'm free to sell doujinshi based of Japanese anime and games but not of western ones?

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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2011, 04:46:20 PM »
If I'm not mistaken, it comes down to American/Western copyright law and the enforcement thereof.  If you don't live in an area where the copyright law enforcement is lax, you're out of luck.

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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2011, 04:51:32 PM »
Depends on your country.

You see copyright laws aren't universal (no matter how bad certain industries try to make them so).  In Japan not enforcing your copyright, or enforcing it selectively, means absolutely nothing legally.  So Japanese companies are free to let doujin makers put out works.  If you live in Japan you're probably okay.

In America certain lobbies have successfully gotten the courts to make it so that if you don't defend your copyright like a rabid dog, you lose it.  This allows large companies to legally steal from people who can't afford a team of lawyers to troll the market 24/7 to enforce copyright.  It also forces everyone who wants to keep their copyright to send rabid lawyers to challenge anyone who MIGHT be violating it.

Other places?  I don't know.  Depends on if the law is closer to US or Japanese law.

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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2011, 05:48:50 PM »
i know a pair of fanfics who are selled without problems, and are about western things....
http://www.lulu.com/product/tapa-blanda/with-strings-attached-or-the-big-pink-job/14606119  a Beatles fanfiction, one of the best ones in internet and epic in very aspects...the author wrote this 20 years ago (only ended in 2009) even that, she avoid tho write some words (like the name of the band) for copyright. (even that, when you say "the fab four" you know exactly who they are, nee?)
Harry Potter y el Ocaso de los Altos Elfos. a Harry Potter complete fanfic book done, but i don?t know if this is selled or not. (even that, you can downloaded) I remembered this one because the author is Chilean n_n
i don?t  know if doujins with western charas can be sell. But i know who exist Beatles doujinshi in Japan (a rarity, but exist XD) or PPG.
i think who you must ask first to someone who knows about copyright laws...anyways, a "fanfiction" have the same spirit of a "novel doujinshi" (and a fanzine is almost like a doujin, too)...how the genre no appear in the Otakon policies, probably you must ask about a limited number of copies. ...wait...But Harry Potter is a western book, and Otakon is a Japanese animation,games and other things related convencion, and for that called like that? (from "otaku")...mm...probably you must think in seel your fanfiction in a Harry Potter con, maybe in Otakon you no will be admitted (i believe)
And all is because we used the word otaku for mean "anime,manga,japan videojames, japan related fan" only, meanwhile in Japan the word is used for any geek (computer fan, mecha fan, weapon fan, idol fan, animation fan, and a looong etc) with the animation-manga otakus and fangirls (or fujoshis, the rotten girls) like the first majority.(that mean who i was a otaku since long time, for my beatlemania)


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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2011, 06:37:55 PM »
Let's say I wrote a Harry Potter fanfic and decided to sell it, then it would be considered illegal right? Because I'm totally making money off JK Rowling's characters and universe.

Correct.  The law privileges parody and (to a lesser extent) satire, because you necessarily need to use the author's characters and setting to comment on the work.  However, it's not okay under fair use to use someone else's characters/setting just because you didn't want to make up your own for whatever reason.  See also Salinger v. Colting on unauthorized sequels.

Depends on your country.

You see copyright laws aren't universal (no matter how bad certain industries try to make them so).  In Japan not enforcing your copyright, or enforcing it selectively, means absolutely nothing legally.  So Japanese companies are free to let doujin makers put out works.  If you live in Japan you're probably okay.

In America certain lobbies have successfully gotten the courts to make it so that if you don't defend your copyright like a rabid dog, you lose it.  This allows large companies to legally steal from people who can't afford a team of lawyers to troll the market 24/7 to enforce copyright.  It also forces everyone who wants to keep their copyright to send rabid lawyers to challenge anyone who MIGHT be violating it.

Other places?  I don't know.  Depends on if the law is closer to US or Japanese law.

Wrong on all counts.  First, copyright can only be waived with an explicit statement.  You may be thinking of trademark, which can be lost through non-enforcement.  But copyright automatically attaches from the moment you create the work (unless you explicitly release it into the public domain) and lasts until A) 70 years after your death, B) you assign your rights to someone else, or C) you are found by a court to have committed copyright misuse.  There is a statute of limitations on copyright actions, meaning that if you know about a violation and don't act on it for a certain period of time, you lose your right of action.  But that only applies in the one case, and certainly doesn't strip you of your copyright against all parties.

Second, copyright laws may not be universal, but the TRIPS Agreement lays out minimum requirements for WTO nations' copyright statutes, and requires all member nations to give fellow signatories' authors the same protection as their own.  So where a violator lives doesn't usually make a huge difference.

The reason doujinshi in Japan are not (usually) subjected to copyright prosecution is not because Japan's legal structure is different (again, global copyright is largely standardized by Berne and TRIPS), but because of what Tim Wu has termed "tolerated use".
« Last Edit: January 15, 2011, 06:41:41 PM by Bad Appellant!! »

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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2011, 06:40:07 PM »
So I'm free to sell doujinshi based of Japanese anime and games but not of western ones?

Under TRIPS, a US court (or a Japanese court, for that matter) has to treat an American rightsholder and a Japanese rightsholder the same.

I should also clarify that fanart, fancomics and fanfiction all count as "derivative works", which are the exclusive right of the original author to create.  17 USC 106(2).  Also, a character can be copyrighted.  I see no basis for differential treatment of fanart, fancomics and fanfiction under the copyright laws.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2011, 06:49:34 PM by Bad Appellant!! »

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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2011, 06:53:50 PM »
Second, copyright laws may not be universal, but the TRIPS Agreement lays out minimum requirements for WTO nations' copyright statutes, and requires all member nations to give fellow signatories' authors the same protection as their own.  So where a violator lives doesn't usually make a huge difference.

Well what if I got on a privately-owned space shuttle, blasted into orbit, and drew a Harry Potter erotic fanfic where all the characters are furries? And then began selling it online from onboard the shuttle? What about that, Mr. Lawyer Man?

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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2011, 07:04:42 PM »
Well what if I got on a privately-owned space shuttle, blasted into orbit, and drew a Harry Potter erotic fanfic where all the characters are furries? And then began selling it online from onboard the shuttle? What about that, Mr. Lawyer Man?

Pretty sure a furry will try this in 10 years.

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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2011, 07:06:32 PM »
Pretty sure a furry will try this in 10 years.

And it'll end up being a case in the next Phoenix Wright game.
 BV

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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2011, 12:59:16 AM »
It's so cool having an actual lawyer on the forum :]

So basically the doujin community is allowed to flourish because Japanese companies are smart enough to realize that it helps make their franchises more popular. Compare this to say, Games Workshop, who is basically determined to track down and murder every fan they have.

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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2011, 01:01:11 AM »
Or every western record label there is.
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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2011, 01:25:27 AM »
Or every western record label there is.
They do it less to protect their copyright and more to squeeze every cent out of everyone else involved with what they're selling, though.

TakuTaku

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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2011, 03:43:19 AM »
So the bottom-line is that I'm not allowed to sell fancomics, fanart and fanfics of anything in America unless I was somewhat authorized to do so?

Am I getting this right?

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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2011, 04:00:00 AM »
They do it less to protect their copyright and more to squeeze every cent out of everyone else involved with what they're selling, though.
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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2011, 08:12:02 AM »
So the bottom-line is that I'm not allowed to sell fancomics, fanart and fanfics of anything in America unless I was somewhat authorized to do so?

Am I getting this right?

Under Berne--incorporated by TRIPS--fanwork constitutes a violation of copyright (as a "derivative work") in most of the world, not just America.

Fanwork is not generally prosecuted in Japan, possibly in part because creators appreciate the attention, but also because:

Quote
I spent four wonderful months in Japan, and I asked this question as often as I could. Perhaps the best account in the end was offered by a friend from a major Japanese law firm. ?We don?t have enough lawyers,? he told me one afternoon. There ?just aren?t enough resources to prosecute cases like this.?
Lawrence Lessig, Free Culture.

It's worth noting that most fanworks are not prosecuted under copyright in the US, either.  The examples I linked before--the Harry Potter Lexicon, the Seinfeld Aptitude Test, and the Catcher in the Rye sequel--were all physically printed and sold for profit.  So there's a pragmatic element--your typical DeviantART Naruto tracer is what lawyers call "judgment proof," no money to gain from suing*.

Of course there's fair use, which I mentioned in passing earlier.  Again, not every fanwork is parody, but there are some uses of copyrighted material that are privileged under the copyright law.  Berne imposes a rough equivalent of fair use on all member nations, too.

In all, fanwork (commercial or not) technically abridges the original author's legal rights, no two ways around it.  But the author is free not to act on the encroachment, and in many cases he won't.  Compare speeding, or trespassing, or early cable TV (retransmitting broadcast signals through a wire)--unlawful, but common enough that people don't usually care.

* That's especially important because copyright litigation tends to be very expensive.  Questions of copyright are by their nature heavily fact-based, so lots of expert witness fees and evidentiary motions.  Moreover, most copyright cases are very borderline.  Some Ansel Adams fans hike into the mountains and painstakingly recreate his famous valley photograph--position, lighting, even the clouds, such that the fan photo is virtually indistinguishable from the original.  But it's not a photocopy or anything.  Who wins?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2011, 04:36:15 PM by Bad Appellant!! »

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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2011, 03:34:08 AM »
Suffice to say that US copyright law is pretty much broken. We can hope and press for changes in the future, though.

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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2011, 03:33:52 AM »
Actually by any terms, Selling Fanfiction can be considered Illegal, because of these:

- you're using another thing, character or setting from another person/company/group
- It's supposed to be FAN, not made for sale (except if the characters are yours, of course you can use it as you like)




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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2011, 04:09:41 AM »
Actually by any terms, Selling Fanfiction can be considered Illegal, because of these:

- you're using another thing, character or setting from another person/company/group
- It's supposed to be FAN, not made for sale (except if the characters are yours, of course you can use it as you like)

While I would reiterate that most fanwork as we know it is not parody and generally questionable at best on a fair use inquiry, I would also point out that selling the work for money does not prejudice an otherwise fair use.

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TakuTaku

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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2011, 07:28:19 AM »
Thanks a lot, Bad Appelant, I think I have a bigger understanding of this selling fanworks :'>

Glad you're on this forum :3

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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2011, 02:19:18 PM »
The thing is... even if you were selling original works, it's more likely than not that your original characters/storyline/etc resembles some already existing IP closely enough that you could get sued anyway.  :ohdear: There is plenty of precedent for this, ie when J.K. Rowling was sued by some aspie broad that claimed she owned the word "muggle". When someone copyrights "and" and "the", it's all over.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 02:23:34 PM by C27 »

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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2011, 03:41:16 PM »
The thing is... even if you were selling original works, it's more likely than not that your original characters/storyline/etc resembles some already existing IP closely enough that you could get sued anyway.  :ohdear:

While that's possible, it's axiomatic that you cannot copyright ideas, only expressions thereof.  So I can probably write a story about a girl who can alter reality, as long as I don't make her like Haruhi in any other respect.  See Nichols v. Universal Pictures.

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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2011, 04:21:26 PM »
Hmm, this is interesting, because I was actually thinking of making a thread on doujinshi and copyrights sooner or later while bringing up games like "Touhouvania" and such.

Mostly because I may or may not be planning/working on something based off another huge franchise owned by Konami and etc (Konami will sue, etc) crossed over with Touhou, but I'm just so worried about these laws affecting me, since I wouldn't be selling them here as I would sell them all in Comiket or doujin stores.

Again, all but a dream atm, but just wondering about it.

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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2011, 06:27:53 PM »
Still waiting on an answer to my spaceship hypothetical.

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Re: Selling fanfiction is illegal?
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2011, 06:38:37 PM »
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