Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F  (Read 198961 times)

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2010, 02:20:09 PM »
I've pretty much abandoned Chen and Aya in favor of Sakuya because Sakuya's cooler Sakuya can do an all-party speed boost, while Chen goes solo and Aya only does one person. Doesn't really fit my style.
oh hey another Sakuya user :V

Actually, I went back to Aya because Sakuya's damage output doesn't exist.  But her being able to buff everyone's speed at once so you only need to leave her out for one turn is really nice, and using The World first to max out her own speed makes her MP regen when sitting in the back insane. :V

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2010, 04:41:13 PM »
*brofist*

So it's the SPD stat that controls MP and HP regen? I never figured that out.
All lies and all sin, all dreams and all majesty, Everything rots in this ruined hell

[The Perfect, Elegant Maid] [Pathos of the Hated People] [Music, Projects, and Art]

MysTeariousYukari

  • Nomnomnom~
  • Hooray~
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2010, 07:41:52 PM »
Think about it like this, when in the back, characters are still getting turns, they just Auto-Pick Focus. if you get 10 turns before anyone on your team gets 1, and your in the back, your SP will get filled crazy fast. The World gives, what, a 100% Speed Buff to Sakuya? Put her in the back after, and her SP is filled shortly after :)

Also, for 14F, why not use Fantasy Seal, isn't it more powerful for groups then Evil Sealing Circle? Seal is a group target, while ESC(lol) is row-based. Also, lack of Marisa and Asteroid Belt = Error.

15F girl will fit nicely into your party, so things will get pwned even harder >:D

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2010, 10:11:04 PM »
SP I get, but what about MP and HP? Does the "auto-focus" also regenerate HP and MP when you're in the back?

And yes. Yes, I'm sure she will.  :3
All lies and all sin, all dreams and all majesty, Everything rots in this ruined hell

[The Perfect, Elegant Maid] [Pathos of the Hated People] [Music, Projects, and Art]

Axel Ryman

  • Fear me
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2010, 10:17:42 PM »
What is this MP you speak of.  :V

MysTeariousYukari

  • Nomnomnom~
  • Hooray~
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2010, 10:33:12 PM »
SP I get, but what about MP and HP? Does the "auto-focus" also regenerate HP and MP when you're in the back?

And yes. Yes, I'm sure she will.  :3

SP is MP. The HP regen is half the MP regen, so yes, they will regain HP nicely.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2010, 10:36:48 PM »
SP is MP. The HP regen is half the MP regen, so yes, they will regain HP nicely.

pfffffffff crap

Sorry, I am not thinking clearly today. Thanks, though.
All lies and all sin, all dreams and all majesty, Everything rots in this ruined hell

[The Perfect, Elegant Maid] [Pathos of the Hated People] [Music, Projects, and Art]

RegalStar

  • Envoy of Balance
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2010, 02:24:34 AM »
Am I weird for not using speed buffers (except self-buffs like Grand Patriot's Elixir and Optical Camouflage)? I can't seem to micromanage speed buffing well and end up wasting turns switching people around until all the speed buff (as well as all the other buffs I'd rather not lose) wear off.

Garlyle

  • I can't brain today
  • I have the dumb
    • Tormod Plays Games
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2010, 03:32:22 AM »
Am I weird for not using speed buffers (except self-buffs like Grand Patriot's Elixir and Optical Camouflage)? I can't seem to micromanage speed buffing well and end up wasting turns switching people around until all the speed buff (as well as all the other buffs I'd rather not lose) wear off.
nah, you're not the only one.  Those who pay attention to micromanagement of speed and turn order tend to not like speed buffs specifically because it messes with that.

I'm somewhat fond of them, but not nearly as much as speed debuffing, since speed buffs wear off noticably faster and have to be reapplied much more compared to placing one -50% SPD with Cirno.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2010, 03:34:28 AM »
Am I weird for not using speed buffers (except self-buffs like Grand Patriot's Elixir and Optical Camouflage)? I can't seem to micromanage speed buffing well and end up wasting turns switching people around until all the speed buff (as well as all the other buffs I'd rather not lose) wear off.
Pretty much what Garlyle said, it can actually throw off team synergy sometimes, and speed debuffs are more useful most of the time when they manage to land.

Though, more turns and faster regen is majorly beneficial, so if you aren't basing your team on delay micromanagement, there isn't any reason not to use speed buffs.

Parallaxal

  • Moon Sign "Theft of Dreams"
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2010, 05:49:30 AM »
Sign me up as another player who has to micromanage character speed for their party. In my current party (ATK or MAG builds for nearly everyone), I hardly ever use Luna Dial. I just get Sakuya to boost herself with The World, toss a Thundercloud Stickleback or two on her, and watch her rip things apart with the 550% ATK multiplier and 48% delay on Killing Doll. If I were using Aya, I'd probably just stick to Peerless Wind God.

That's not to say SPD buffs are bad, but my personal play style has drifted further and further away from it. Self SPD buffs are still awesome, though; if Grand Patriot's Elixir were on any other attacker, I'd bet that character would be top tier without question.

NEETori

  • Using my Extending Arms to steal donations.
  • TECHNOLOGY!
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2010, 06:06:43 PM »
There needs to be a Ran-style speed buff  :V

But I think I dropped Sakuya after Eientei trio.  Too much of a bother.

MysTeariousYukari

  • Nomnomnom~
  • Hooray~
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2010, 06:13:55 PM »
I don't really like buffs for SPD, yeah they are nice, but when you have like 3000 SPD and get 4+ turns before your enemy, what help will a 40% or so SPD buff give? I prefer buffing the 4 main stats, ATK, DEF, MAG and MND, as 3 of those 4 will be undeniably useful on any character, sometimes all 4, SPD, not so much...

That, and I don't really use anyone who can give a SPD Buff.

Edit: Also, the few times I would use a SPD buff are ones like Aya's Dmg+SPD Buff move. We need more moves like that, buffing the user while hurting the enemy. 10-15% ATK+SPD buff per use would be good.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2010, 06:17:44 PM by MysteariousYukari »

Serela

  • Moon Tiara Magic
  • VIA PIZZA SLINGING
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2010, 12:21:14 AM »
Aya is pretty much the only real use I get out of spd buffing (I never really used Sakuya, Nitori gets switchwhored so hers doesn't really matter, and then Reisen/Maribel I take for granted :V). But boy, is it insane. Switch in Aya, have her use the single-target spd buff on herself, then start going nuts with Peerless Wind God. If you have Iku/Keine etc buffing her ATK, it's pretty damn nice damage considering the rape speed she moves at.

High SP cost, but switch her into the back and her 100% SPD boost means regen HP/SP pretty fast to rampage again. Plus, then you can have her switchwhore amazingly fast if needed to do so, which can really save you in a pinch. Due to SP it's hard to use Aya like this until Plus Disk, but at that point, she's pretty amazing; like a Super-Chen. 
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #44 on: September 26, 2010, 12:24:21 AM »
Just did the boss rush after not playing the game for a while. It's amazing how much more annoying the final boss is when you can't switch out three of your people due to lack of BP :V

As for speed buffs, I don't really use them either, due to them tending to make my tanks go before my nukers after switching them in and make a mess of everything. The exception being all-stat buffs like Miracle Fruit; I just make sure not to use them on my tanks.

EDIT: Does anyone know exactly how the DTH status effect works? I though that it was a simple (effect - 3*resistance) percentage, but after Mokou and Orin (with DTH resistances 30 and 24, respectively) both getting hit by the DTH-66 effect of Hyperspace Slash, that can't really be correct... And Nitori seems to survive the attack far more often than her 10 resistance would suggest.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 06:07:53 PM by yoshicookiezeus »

RegalStar

  • Envoy of Balance
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #45 on: September 26, 2010, 07:56:30 PM »
I believe with DTH-100 or lower it's more like Listed Preentage * (1-3%*target DTH resist). So Hyperspace Slash on Mokou with 30 DTH resist would cause DTH 6.6% of the time, and 18.48% of the time on someone with 24 DTH resist. Just a guess, though.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #46 on: September 26, 2010, 08:24:01 PM »
...given how the chance of hitting is calculated for all the other ailments, that would actually make quite a bit of sense. Still doesn't explain stuff like Saigyouji Flawless Nirvana, though.

In other news, oh god the 24F randoms are worse than I remembered. Sphere things that are faster than Orin, that can effortlessly destroy my two front people with Dual Colourful Light (seriously, that attack is way too powerful), and that like to appear in pairs are not very nice.

NEETori

  • Using my Extending Arms to steal donations.
  • TECHNOLOGY!
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2010, 12:09:17 AM »
I'm at a wall.
Both 24F and 26F annihilate me with their focus afttacks.  I just can't strip enough HP off at the end quickly enough. 

I think I just need to get Flan some more power for 24F.  Laventein hits for 800k with two of Ran's backrow buffs. 
As for 26F, I don't know.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #48 on: September 27, 2010, 12:10:58 AM »
I'm at a wall.
Both 24F and 26F annihilate me with their focus afttacks.  I just can't strip enough HP off at the end quickly enough. 

I think I just need to get Flan some more power for 24F.  Laventein hits for 800k with two of Ran's backrow buffs. 
As for 26F, I don't know.
Give Flan some PAR resist (Shiva's Leather Boots or something similar), have Iku give her a Stickleback.

NEETori

  • Using my Extending Arms to steal donations.
  • TECHNOLOGY!
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2010, 05:07:12 AM »
1 Sticklebacked Laveatein does approximately 1.2 mil, so I'm assuming 1.5ish for 80%.  All I need is a KOi3S and possibly a Linear Gun in before one, and I win.

On the other hand, my latest attempt screwed me up when I accidentally focused instead of switching out Yuugi for Flan.

draganuv15

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2010, 11:38:53 AM »
D'you wonder if they'll ever release another expansion?

With more characters and floors

Tangrelle

  • This is my book! It's still all weird though.
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2010, 07:51:51 PM »
I'd think at this timing, if they were going to release something new, it would be another game. Only really saying this though, because WINNERRRRRRR requires EXTREMEGRINDFACE. Unless they add an alternate set of floors you can go through with some key or the other. And then teehee Byakuren. <3

Relating to the game, grinding for Mister 18f is sooooo long I've sorta given up halfway through </3 Yuyuko's been helping my efforts through her instadeath working well here, except when those darn melee rabbits show up D:< Chen can't OHKO them all yet, so I has sad </3

NEETori

  • Using my Extending Arms to steal donations.
  • TECHNOLOGY!
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2010, 11:20:40 PM »
I demand Yokai Moe version 2.

And also - grind on 16F, much faster killing and better EXP/SkP/TP ratio. 

RegalStar

  • Envoy of Balance
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2010, 11:35:00 PM »
I demand Yokai Moe version 2.

And also - grind on 16F, much faster killing and better EXP/SkP/TP ratio.

Pretty sure that she shows up on 30F, as a random encounter alongside ver3s/other plus disk boss battle girls ver2s.

Parallaxal

  • Moon Sign "Theft of Dreams"
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #54 on: September 30, 2010, 03:46:59 AM »
In my most recent playthrough, I'm getting some surprisingly solid usage out of using a few oddball support characters as major attackers. Observe this video of my fighting the 18F boss at about Reimu lvl 90:

Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RnKMjOaRPA
Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9iKFNJYP_Q

Want to know who did the most damage in this battle? Would you be willing to believe that it was Sakuya, of all people? Yes, she alone blazed through 18F's first form and dealt 215k damage on her own, then went on to do a total of 720k damage throughout the course of the entire fight. Second place was Youmu, who is by no means a bad attacker (and is actually pretty high-tier, I'd say). Youmu contributed 660k damage total for me, but she had elemental advantage on her side against the Wind and Nature forms, doing a total of 485k damage to those two thanks to their 2x weakness to her attacks. Sakuya, on the other hand, had to do all her damage without any elemental weakness on her side, yet still came out on top. How in the world did this happen?

First off, Soul Sculpture is terrible for boss fights, as its formula isn't very good and it has horrible delay. No, Sakuya's real weapon is Killing Doll. Killing Doll has a very unique damage formula; it has pathetic ATK influence, but also has an almost unheard of 550% damage multiplier. Usually, Sakuya's ATK ends up getting swallowed up by the enemy's DEF, leaving very little left over for the damage multiplier to use. However, once you give her an ATK boost, Killing Doll's damage output jumps up tremendously.

As an example, Komachi (whom I tweaked for maximum offensive output in this party) was doing 35-40k damage against 18F boss's neutral form with Scythe that Chooses the Dead. That's pretty good given its relatively low delay for a power nuke. When buffed with 1 Thundercloud Stickleback, Komachi does 50-60k damage instead. So a single one of Iku's buffs translates to about a 50% increase in damage. Now let's look at Sakuya and her Killing Doll. Without buffs, my offensively-built Sakuya can manage about 20k damage with Killing Doll at level 85, only half of what Komachi can do. After a single Thundercloud Stickleback, her damage jumps to 45-50k, more than doubling in power and almost catching up to Komachi's attack. That's a bigger proportional boost than pretty much any other spellcard formula in the game, which shows just how important ATK buffs are for an offensive-build Sakuya. While Thundercloud Stickleback often translates to a 50% boost in damage for other characters, it means a 100-150% jump for Sakuya.

Now, 45-50k damage per attack after buffs at this point in the game is pretty respectable, but it might not sound phenominal to you just yet. That's almost comparable to how much an unbuffed Silent Selene/Slash of Eternity/KO in 3 Steps can be expected to do. But there's more. Sakuya, who already has good speed, has a mere 48% delay on Killing Doll, making it easy to spam without switching out. All right, that's sounding better...but then you get to The World. A 100% SPD self-buff to start things off? Yes please! After buffing herself, Sakuya can expect to get off at least 3 Killing Dolls in the time it takes Yuugi to recover from a single KO in 3 Steps. And thanks to her solid HP/DEF/MND, you can expect Sakuya to stay in and take whatever the boss throws at her (she survives Start of Heavenly Demise with no problems).

Right now with my current party, I almost never use Luna Dial in boss fights anymore. Sakuya is spending all her time buffing her own SPD and then spamming Killing Doll like crazy. She has certainly surpassed all my expectations as an attacker, that's for sure. Although I should probably give some of that praise to Iku as well. But then again, I'm not sure if my opinion of Iku can get any higher.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #55 on: September 30, 2010, 04:12:13 AM »
Sakuya praise
And you all called me crazy when I said she was more useful offensively for me than Aya was. :V

Parallaxal

  • Moon Sign "Theft of Dreams"
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #56 on: September 30, 2010, 05:40:55 AM »
And you all called me crazy when I said she was more useful offensively for me than Aya was. :V

This coming from someone who, on this very same page, said:

Actually, I went back to Aya because Sakuya's damage output doesn't exist.

 ;)

But seriously, I now believe both can be decent damage dealers if twinked properly, and partnered with Iku. Go Iku!

The Greatest Dog

  • Grazing at Mach 10
  • 90 Frames per Second GO!
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2010, 06:08:13 AM »
tldr; Iku is top tier; Sakuya can potentially not suck as a DPS/Tank hybrid.

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #58 on: September 30, 2010, 07:11:40 AM »
ehhh...Aya doesn't need iku to do reasonable damage though. I understand that situationally Sakuya can do it, but I really really don't think it's a matter of "Sakuya IS a good damage dealer" when the number of characters in the game who can maintain a good atk buff on other characters are precious few. Even Renko might not even be a good example given its massive delay, side-effect, and Sakuya's speed abilities making her atk buff to really wear off much faster than Renko could maintain.

This is also demanding that you make sakuya atk-based. Which given the circumstances isn't bad but I mean her attack's power gets neutered THAT much harder if you make your party defense-based. When I was playing for my first time and I had virtually my whole party with defense-builds, Sakuya, despite being higher level then than I am used to being now, would fairly often hit bosses for 0s.. yes, 0s. I understand an atk-buff would boost the damage output significantly more than other attacks, but even with a miracle fruit (my biggest atk buff in that game), she'd still hit for less than something relatively simple like a magic missle from marisa or whatever.

So, I'm just saying it's really too situational to be saying Sakuya is a good attacker, you absolutely need to make your party setup a certain way for it to work, at which point it's good dps, but still not even "god-tier" dps.

I'd like to see what kinda numbers you'd dish out with Yuyuko if she had an iku-bot though...
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 07:19:30 AM by Ghaleon »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 6F
« Reply #59 on: September 30, 2010, 12:09:38 PM »
This coming from someone who, on this very same page, said:

 ;)
... :V

Long story.