Author Topic: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 2 (Please look here before anywhere else)  (Read 207801 times)

game2011

  • mgneiptGD
    • Sexy Womans in your city for night
Chinese for "youkai" is compromised of two characters: "enchanted" and "strange".  Such a term indeed is used in Chinese localizations when referring to "youkai", but nowadays, it seems to mean more of monsters and demons in general.  It may even be used for calling someone who is cruel and heartless, basically calling them a monster or a demon...

Anyway, some of you might know this already, but I'd like to point it out again just in case...  Unless it's an important term like Youkai Mountain, I always use the term "demon", not "youkai".  I prefer sticking to commonly-used English terms for common words.

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Chinese for "youkai" is compromised of two characters: "enchanted" and "strange".  Such a term indeed is used in Chinese localizations when referring to "youkai", but nowadays, it seems to mean more of monsters and demons in general.  It may even be used for calling someone who is cruel and heartless, basically calling them a monster or a demon...

Anyway, some of you might know this already, but I'd like to point it out again just in case...  Unless it's an important term like Youkai Mountain, I always use the term "demon", not "youkai".  I prefer sticking to commonly-used English terms for common words.

Let me try to make this clearer:

In English, "demon" refers to a malevolent, evil, supernatural being. "Youkai" obviously are not all evil or malevolent, so "demon" is way too specific.

But since you keep wanting to use "demon" as a translation for "youkai", I can't help wondering what you're actually asking here, or why.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

game2011

  • mgneiptGD
    • Sexy Womans in your city for night
Someone commented that s/he doesn't want to read a my latest Touhou fanfic because I use "demon" instead of "youkai", and then s/he says that dubs aren't always correct or something along those lines, so I thought I wanted to ask for clarification between those two terms here.

Does youkai ever get used in the same context that the word "Demon" is used for when it doesn't refer to a breed of being, but instead is more symbollic?  For example, calling a fast biker a "Speed demon", saying "You must conquer your inner demons before you can be at peace with yourself", and after a particularly lively night "Wow, that man is a real demon in the sack" (.....ahem.)?

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Other than that inexplicable "roger!" meaning I've seen even Nforza mention, no idea. Good question.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Someone commented that s/he doesn't want to read a my latest Touhou fanfic because I use "demon" instead of "youkai", and then s/he says that dubs aren't always correct or something along those lines, so I thought I wanted to ask for clarification between those two terms here.

That complaint is somewhat unfounded. Demon can be used very broadly. When you use demons of the night, you don't really mean just demons, but demons and other monsters.


But in Chinese, demons would be a bit different from youkai. Youkai is slightly broader than demons. Demons would be something like 悪魔, while youkai are 妖怪. The latter being broader than the former.

Pesco

  • Trickster Rabbit Tewi
  • *
  • Make a yukkuri and take it easy with me
English is a delightfully kleptomaniac language. Just start using youkai as an English word with its original meaning from Japanese and the term will have successfully undergone lexical borrowing. No loss of meaning and no hair-splitting over connotations.

game2011

  • mgneiptGD
    • Sexy Womans in your city for night
Regardless of what s/he or anyone says, I'm still sticking with using the language I'm more familiar with.

Drake

  • *
so basically the only reason you asked was for affirmation that you could think of that critic as an idiot
and then when pointed out you aren't really correct you just fell back to "well i'm using it anyways"
way to go

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

qyot27

  • Surreptitious moon rabbit
  • Counting Blue Cars
The closest you'd get to what you insist on using and the actual meaning is the Greek word 'daemon' (or 'daimon'), which means something akin to the way Japanese uses 'youkai'.  It also gives that smug bonus of being just different enough from 'demon' to confuse people as to whether that was the word you really wanted, and it's much more decidedly neutral.  Of course, it doesn't help that 'demon' arose from linguistic borrowing of 'daemon' filtered through the conflict between Christianity and Hellenistic religion prior to the Renaissance...but by that point it gets pedantic.

Either that, or they think you're referring to a BSD service.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2012, 05:28:28 AM by qyot27 »

Lepetit89

  • Deranged Collector
True, but borrowing a foreign word for the purpose of not using a foreign word whose meaning you cannot nail with terms your native language offers you sounds like a bit too much effort.

Should just use Youkai and call it a day; you cannot cover the extent of the meaning with what English offers you. Use Youkai, stick a note with an explanation to it the first time you use it, done. Sticking with "demon" just comes across as ignorant and disrespectful to the source material, especially if you're going to use fansubs as your justification since most fansubbers are one of the last groups of people I'd credit with thoroughly thought-out translations.

game2011

  • mgneiptGD
    • Sexy Womans in your city for night
so basically the only reason you asked was for affirmation that you could think of that critic as an idiot
and then when pointed out you aren't really correct you just fell back to "well i'm using it anyways"
way to go
I never thought of him/her as anything like that.

especially if you're going to use fansubs as your justification since most fansubbers are one of the last groups of people I'd credit with thoroughly thought-out translations.
I'm not using fansubs as my justification.  I'm using official dubs and localizations as my justifications.  Series like Yu Yu Hakusho, Inuyasha, and Okami all use "demons".

This is reminding me of the "nakama" debate, where people debated whether that term should be left untranslated or translated into "comrade"...  The former is favored, apparently...

Anyway, I'll admit "youkai" being a broader term that can cover a wide variety of species, while "demons" is more specific.  I'll simply use the term "demon" sparingly, only using it to refer to species that don't really have specific names like tengu, oni, kappa, vampires, etc.

EDIT: It's just me, but I don't really find Asian language mixing well with English, hence the reason I try to use English translations for them as much as possible.  European language, on the other hand, I have no issue with, so to my memory, I pretty much always leave them alone.  Must have to do with English language taking most of its roots from European languages...
« Last Edit: May 27, 2012, 03:59:42 PM by game2011 »

Lepetit89

  • Deranged Collector
I'm not using fansubs as my justification.  I'm using official dubs and localizations as my justifications.  Series like Yu Yu Hakusho, Inuyasha, and Okami all use "demons".

Woops, my bad, sorry about that. Still the same problem for many series, though, since many, many publishers assume that series, if too foreign in their nature, won't become hits with an audience that would, as they think, prefer westernized phrases and what not. It's the same problem, just leaning more strongly towards a different culprit. As far as I know, it's gotten better, but most of the series you quoted are older ones that are quite likely to suffer from that I'd wager.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2012, 08:40:36 PM by Lepetit89 »

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
EDIT: It's just me, but I don't really find Asian language mixing well with English, hence the reason I try to use English translations for them as much as possible.  European language, on the other hand, I have no issue with, so to my memory, I pretty much always leave them alone.  Must have to do with English language taking most of its roots from European languages...

Kamikaze, shanghai, teriyaki, sushi, bamboo, geisha and countless other Asian words are already a part of the English language. They came into the language because instead of trying to translate them (e.g. "shanghai" instead of "kidnap someone and force them to work on board a ship") people realized you could just use the Asian word and people will know what you mean.

Trust me on this. Just use "youkai". The English word "demon" is far too narrow, and thus inaccurate.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

qyot27

  • Surreptitious moon rabbit
  • Counting Blue Cars
True, but borrowing a foreign word for the purpose of not using a foreign word whose meaning you cannot nail with terms your native language offers you sounds like a bit too much effort.
I fully agree, especially since 'youkai' is not outside the range of unrecognizable cultural tropes these days.  There's plenty of English translations - official or not - that do use it as-is without translating it to subpar analogues like 'demon'.  Rosario+Vampire, for instance (as 'yokai' since apparently the macron or 'ou' expansion is too confusing to sort out; but then again, the same thing happens with Touhou - you use Toho, macrons or not, and you're likely referring to the company that produces Godzilla movies and anime).

Quote from: game2011
I'm not using fansubs as my justification.  I'm using official dubs and localizations as my justifications.  Series like Yu Yu Hakusho, Inuyasha, and Okami all use "demons".
I had a feeling it was those series' treatment of the word that was sparking this.  I remember the little flare of controversy over Inuyasha, and quite frankly had the translators done a better job of maintaining the nuance and used 'youkai' (considering all the other types of descriptive Japanese words that had to be used for things) then that little spat would never have happened.

Quote
This is reminding me of the "nakama" debate, where people debated whether that term should be left untranslated or translated into "comrade"...  The former is favored, apparently...
That case is different because the 'comrade' translation is accurate and the only 'justification' for leaving it untranslated is to have gratuitous Japanese for obnoxious teenagers to litter their speech with.  And that's as far as I can go on the topic of unnecessary buzzwording while staying polite.  Outside of a couple of shounen titles people get all worked up about, 'comrade' is the usual/preferred translation (if it even pops up at all).



Fearsome critters fall into much the same not-monster (sometimes), not-devil (sometimes) category, but references to fur bearing trout would seem out of place.

game2011

  • mgneiptGD
    • Sexy Womans in your city for night
Kamikaze, shanghai, teriyaki, sushi, bamboo, geisha and countless other Asian words are already a part of the English language. They came into the language because instead of trying to translate them (e.g. "shanghai" instead of "kidnap someone and force them to work on board a ship") people realized you could just use the Asian word and people will know what you mean.

Trust me on this. Just use "youkai". The English word "demon" is far too narrow, and thus inaccurate.
I know about those words, but the difference with them is that they are established words that found their way into dictionaries, so I'm all right with them.  "Youkai" isn't one of them, hence the reason I'm not comfortable with using it and thus prefer using the term that is widely used in localizations.

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
The point is it can be done. And in fact, it is being done. Many well-known subbers don't translate "youkai" anymore. There is literally zero reason to translate "youkai" into anything. But if you insist on translating it, "demon" just isn't going to work. This is a bad, bad choice of English word to use to translate "youkai". You might go with "supernatural being" or, more poetically, "something not of this world". But hey, seems you had your mind made up on "demon" from the start, so what do I know?

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Zil

I think that anyone who has never heard "youkai" before would learn the meaning pretty quickly anyway. That was my experience when I got into Touhou. And if you're writing a Touhou fanfiction, wouldn't any reader under the sun be expecting "youkai," thus making "demon" even more confusing?

It depends on the audience.  If you are going for accessibility, translate it.  Basic English rules say that if foreign words can be easily translated, using the foreign word instead of an English term is incorrect.  However, if you are writing for English-speaking anime/manga fans, you can get away with not translating it, as it then is a part of the jargon for that audience, akin to me using ethanol with chemists as opposed to alcohol with drinking buddies.

But then again, I lost this argument 15 years ago, when literal translation became the norm.

Now, as I don't speak Japanese, would someone like to explain why "monster" may/may not be a decent choice for youkai?  Just to satisfy curiosity.  Seems a better fit, or at least less loaded, than demon.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 01:25:14 AM by Achariyth »

game2011

  • mgneiptGD
    • Sexy Womans in your city for night
It's not like "demon" is 100% wrong and inaccurate.  It may not be the best replacement for "youkai", but the concept and meaning behind the former is still there to some extent, so I don't really see it as the wrong word.

Please do tell me this, then: Is one in the wrong if s/he uses phantom, ghost, ship ghost, grim reaper, and zombies instead of yuurei, bourei, funyuurei, shinigami, and jiang-shi, respectively?

I can in the very least guarantee that zombie is the exact translation for jiang-shi, for in Chinese, jiang-shi refers to both Western and Chinese zombies.  Therefore, when you say jiang-shi to a Chinese/Taiwanese, s/he will not get which kind of zombies you're talking about unless you say the Western or the Chinese kind, though nowadays, most people seem to be talking about the Western kind when they simply say jiang-shi.

And a bit of trivia, Hsien-Ko's quote to some of the Resident Evil characters in MvC3 about her being a jiang-shi and not a zombie makes absolutely no sense when literally translated into Chinese due to the reason I mentioned above if she doesn't mention the words "Chinese" and "Western".

Zil

That's a result of the Chinese using jiang-shi for zombies instead of just using zombie, which is exactly the same problem that arises from using demon for youkai. It's trying to expand an already existent term to include something similar but essentially different. So, in fact, zombie is not the exact translation of jiang-shi. Jiang-shi is a mistranslation of zombie.

I find it surprising that you'd bring that up since the whole gist of it seems to be working against you. :V

Drake

  • *
Quote
Please do tell me this, then: Is one in the wrong if s/he uses phantom, ghost, ship ghost, grim reaper, and zombies instead of yuurei, bourei, funyuurei, shinigami, and jiang-shi, respectively?
Phantom and ghost are special cases that are only relevant in the touhou fandom, and have little to do with romanization vs translation. ZUN makes a point of differentiating yuurei and bourei in PCB, and explicitly defines the difference between Yuyuko and other "ghosts". For that reason, the english fandom needed two different terms for them. Before the distinction was pointed out, we just called them all ghosts, because for all intents and purposes "ghost" is a perfect translation for yuurei. English speakers can see "ghost" and know immediately what it is, and the finer points of yuurei versus "western ghosts" are defined throughout the series along with PMiSS. With the distinction of bourei being a different class of ghosts, it was decided that Yuyuko and bourei would be called "ghost" because bourei still have a body of sorts, and the whole situation with leaving a corpse and whatnot fits a western ghost more than it does wispy yuurei, who aren't exactly created by a person dying. Their appearance was a large reason why the term "phantom" was used. "Spirit" might have been another choice but that would be much too vague considering many youkai are spirits and other problems (similar to why demon doesn't work for youkai).

Now, in the case of ship ghost vs regular ghost, it should be pretty obvious that it works properly since funyuurei is just yuurei with "ship" in front.

I think in the touhou fandom, shinigami is mostly used over grim reaper. The western grim reaper and the japanese shinigami are similar, but shinigami is a widely-known term already and there are usually more than one shinigami whereas the grim reaper is one entity. For the most part I think it's just convention. I doubt you'd get much flak for calling Komachi a grim reaper.

Jiang-shi is weird for the reason Zil stated, but usually if you say jiang-shi in english, we mean chinese zombies. Western zombies are labeled zombies. See Rin's "zombie fairies". ZUN explicitly uses ゾンビ (zombie) and キョンシー (kyonshii) to differentiate, even though he also calls Yoshika ゾンビ.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

qyot27

  • Surreptitious moon rabbit
  • Counting Blue Cars
It depends on the audience.  If you are going for accessibility, translate it.  Basic English rules say that if foreign words can be easily translated, using the foreign word instead of an English term is incorrect.  However, if you are writing for English-speaking anime/manga fans, you can get away with not translating it, as it then is a part of the jargon for that audience, akin to me using ethanol with chemists as opposed to alcohol with drinking buddies.

But then again, I lost this argument 15 years ago, when literal translation became the norm.
One does have to take into consideration the limits of accessibility, regardless of how easily a word can be translated.  Think of the different types of German sausage - most have precise translations into English, but even amongst those not into German cuisine or language, they still use the German names.  Anything ending in 'wurst' (Liverwurst, Blutwurst, etc.) tends to get this treatment, or more exotically, Braunschweiger.  It means 'Brunswick sausage' (the 'er' implies the sausage in this case; Brunswick is the English name of Braunschweig the same way that Munich is the English name of M?nchen, or Bavaria<=>Bayern).  Nobody uses the English name, though, and instead they use the German one (however badly they end up mispronouncing it in the process).

A good portion of it is simply how open to linguistic exchange one is.  I personally deny the concept of 'literal' translations even existing at all because of the difficulties and nuances involved in translation.  You can get close, but finding an absolutely exact equivalent of a word or phrase should be properly considered less common than it gets treated by those consuming foreign media (including the more obvious area of how it impacts religious texts).  The further from English one gets, the less common 'literality' becomes, although that's still not an excuse for an overly-loose or sloppy translation.  At some point a loanword is appropriate, whether because it describes the concept more accurately or because it matches the overall tone of the work.

The dispute in the anime/manga grouping is that to go into it expecting not to see Japanese culture, and therefore not encounter Japanese words or phrases, is a disservice - if not an insult - to the original media, as it would be with any bit of media that gets translated from one language to another.  At its worst it leads to writing with invisible chalk and other culture bleaching that occurred in the old days of heavy censorship in localized anime.  It goes back to the original point: accessibility is good if the series would naturally be successful, but how much is too much in the attempt to make the niche properties 'accessible'?

Quote
Now, as I don't speak Japanese, would someone like to explain why "monster" may/may not be a decent choice for youkai?  Just to satisfy curiosity.  Seems a better fit, or at least less loaded, than demon.
This is coming from my small absorption of Japanese, but it would be a much better fit, as the concept of a 'monster' being neutral is more acceptable than a 'demon' being neutral, but it tends to imply that the subject is still noticeably not human, and with youkai, some appear to be perfectly human until their more monstrous abilities or traits emerge.  Not to mention that even if several of the species in Touhou are at least partially of the classical 'monster' archetype as Westerners would be familiar with (vampires, were-creatures, and what all...), most of them aren't.

The 'monster' translation tends to be applied to other Japanese words, though.  'Bakemono' is one which, like 'monster' does in English, also seems to cover the metaphorical usage when applied to ordinary humans perceived as acting inhuman.  About the only subspecies that could have the 'demon' tag applied to them with a high amount of accuracy are the ones actually classified as Devils (whether that's Koakuma, the vampires, or both), or the oni (as oni are very frequently equated with demons in and out of the normal anime circles).  The part there is that Westerners are already at least somewhat familiar with the word 'oni' in ways similar to the familiarity with terms from Greek or Norse mythology.

From the Touhou wiki: Youkai (妖怪) is a term mostly associated with Japanese folk creatures and ghosts. The term can also apply broadly to anything that is a supernatural being or legend, from any culture.

From dictionary.com: Demon
noun
1. an evil spirit; devil or fiend.
2. an evil passion or influence.
3. a person considered extremely wicked, evil, or cruel.
4. a person with great energy, drive, etc.: He's a demon for work.
5. a person, especially a child, who is very mischievous: His younger son is a real little demon.
6. daemon.
7. Australian Slang . a policeman, especially a detective.
adjective
8. of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or noting a demon.
9. possessed or controlled by a demon.

Totally interchangeable.

Pesco

  • Trickster Rabbit Tewi
  • *
  • Make a yukkuri and take it easy with me
I'm having an amused moment imagining the feature characters of Greek mythology as youkai :V

The dispute in the anime/manga grouping is that to go into it expecting not to see Japanese culture, and therefore not encounter Japanese words or phrases, is a disservice - if not an insult - to the original media, as it would be with any bit of media that gets translated from one language to another.  At its worst it leads to writing with invisible chalk and other culture bleaching that occurred in the old days of heavy censorship in localized anime.  It goes back to the original point: accessibility is good if the series would naturally be successful, but how much is too much in the attempt to make the niche properties 'accessible'?

Let me first say again that I already lost this argument in the greater anime culture a long time ago.  With the exception of words that would take a full paragraph to explain, I expect to see no Japanese at all.  I disagree with the idea of disservice; read a translation of Xenophon, Machiavelli, Homer, Livy, Caesar, or Sun Tzu and you don't find the inclusion of Greek,  Italian, Latin, or Chinese in the translation except for proper names and words that would require a small essay to adequately define.  This is what the conventions of my language have brought me up to expect, with the underlying assumption that if I needed to know exactly what is being said, I should learn the original language each was written in.

I see the use of Japanese in English by anime fans as a type of jargon, as, if you have to translate the word, even if it is in English, for someone outside of your group, it is specialized language that impedes instead of enhances understanding.  Not everyone speaks soldier, engineer, doctor, or lawyer, but we trust what a member of any of those groups says is still English (we hope) even as they have to reword their thoughts for people outside their group.  Within the specialized group, though, the use of jargon is understandable, even expected.

I'll agree to disagree.  I have to.  As I said, I've already lost this argument in the greater subculture.  And this is not the place to vent my frustrations about translation sins that I have yet to see members on this board commit.

« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 10:31:31 AM by Achariyth »

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
It's not like "demon" is 100% wrong and inaccurate.  It may not be the best replacement for "youkai", but the concept and meaning behind the former is still there to some extent, so I don't really see it as the wrong word.

Then just use it. Seems like you'd decided on that before you posted your question anyway.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

game2011

  • mgneiptGD
    • Sexy Womans in your city for night
It may look like I want to end this right away, but I really do have another question that I want to ask.  Anyway, thanks for all the information and clarification!

There's been talk about Eirin being a goddess and also immortal.  Now her being immortal is something that is debated on, but for the most part, it's generally agreed and proven that she isn't immortal due to her being in the Netherworld before and also almost getting strangled to death by Kaguya in the Inaba manga, though one may argue that the latter isn't supposed to be serious...  Plus, I've read that it's confirmed in one of the books (CoLA, I think...) that she didn't drink it, despite what she said in Ghost Team's good ending #4.

So about Eirin being a goddess...  Someone brought this up:
My thought is that the Lunar Capital is where the highest, noblest gods live - that sort of setting. On the other hand, Gensokyo is where the more friendly, indigenous gods live. I figured that there are factions even among gods. Eirin is one of them, which is why she isn't interacting with the other humans after she moved to Gensokyo.
-ZUN

Any explanation on this?

Thanks in advance!

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Eirin's immortality has been neither confirmed nor denied, but she is undoubtedly very, very old, and did make the Hourai Elixir, so it's within the realm of possibility. Just not confirmed either way.

Lunarian society is separate from Earth society. The source of that ZUN quote is this interview. I think Eirin's deity status, taken from this quote, might be taking things out of context. Or it might not. This is the original quote in Japanese, in case one of our native speakers can clear things up for us:

僕の中では月の都は高貴な神様たちが居る場所で、という設定なんです。で、反対に幻想郷には親しみやすいというか土着っぽい神様たちが居る。神様にもいろいろ派閥があるんだろうなって。で、永琳はその中の一人だったから、幻想郷に来ても他の人間と接触を持たないんです。


"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

qyot27

  • Surreptitious moon rabbit
  • Counting Blue Cars
Let me first say again that I already lost this argument in the greater anime culture a long time ago.  With the exception of words that would take a full paragraph to explain, I expect to see no Japanese at all.  I disagree with the idea of disservice; read a translation of Xenophon, Machiavelli, Homer, Livy, Caesar, or Sun Tzu and you don't find the inclusion of Greek,  Italian, Latin, or Chinese in the translation except for proper names and words that would require a small essay to adequately define.  This is what the conventions of my language have brought me up to expect, with the underlying assumption that if I needed to know exactly what is being said, I should learn the original language each was written in.
I agree.  My point was about expectations of culture more than it was about language.  It was the assumption by domestic licensors that American audiences can't stand to know that the show they're watching was Japanese in origin and therefore any incidental exposure or reference to Japan, its language, writing systems, or culture must be removed and replaced with Western equivalents or simply written out of the script that I was illustrating as taking the concept too far.  In the cases of the Classics, the elements of their cultures are still present in the work, instead of replaced with local ones - you still know that it was within the framework of Greek, Roman, or Chinese society, even if the translation contains few loanwords.

Quote
I see the use of Japanese in English by anime fans as a type of jargon
Oh, I get annoyed by this too, but I differentiate between fans littering their speech with gratuitous Japanese and the case of using a loanword here or there if it fits or supplying a more direct translation of an idiom rather than substituting a local one (and the words in question generally differ anyway).  The former is bad (fluent English speakers deliberately using seiyuu instead of 'voice actor' practically makes my blood boil because it just sounds stupid), the latter is questionable - sometimes appropriate, sometimes not.

Quote
I'll agree to disagree.  I have to.  As I said, I've already lost this argument in the greater subculture.  And this is not the place to vent my frustrations about translation sins that I have yet to see members on this board commit.
Very well.  I suspect my opinions on the topic don't really fit either side of the debate entirely, nor could I hope to place myself accurately in the spectrum that exists between them.