MotK Mafioso Mafia! Over

[UncertainJakutten]

Yanno what, I'm rereading Furien's post and it looks worse without rushing through it to get a post out since it was a ninja.

Seriously, ##Unvote, Vote Furienfly

Reasons:
Excusing lack of content because supposedly there's nothing to go off of.
Discrediting cases, no matter how weak, as "generic ragetrolling" when there really wasn't a whole lot of rage involved
The fact that all posts thus far have been self admitted "jokes"
Excusing future possible scumminess by saying he's used to a different play style
Wall of text that basically outlines all the above excuses and discreditation without producing any content.

Ninja: I wouldn't even buy hostile, since I think I was rather cordial, if a bit rough with how I accused Kilga.

[Chaore]

##Unvote, ##Vote: NeoSerela

Pretty much bandwagoning. No actual look at what the hell is going on with the case, just tossed a glance at the vote count and Rou's new vote and said 'ROU HAS TOUCHED MY HEART AND I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT!' to pass down his vote. Then when questioned for something more substantial he provides exactly what he did before. What Rou is going at Zak for and Kilga -just told him-. Its more of a nod when he hasn't even really followed the game to actually NOD for a case.

There is a difference between dumbtown agreeing with a case blindly and dumbscum just tossing a vote for the sake of getting a vote down on a lynch. Namely, one requires actually reading the case and thread, while the other requires a look at a vote count.

@Alice: I can not see a lynch from a self-vote being a good lynch no matter how anti-town you say it is. In fact, isn't it typically anti-town for the exact reason that it pushes the person to lynch? The idea that we'd magically catch scum because they voted themselves is so obscenely stupid it makes my eyes -cross-. This is why I am not chill with that idea.

[WHMZakeri]

"Burden of Proof Fallacy" Is basically when people just go back and forth going "You have to provide evidence" "Nu-uh! You provide evidence!" It's a term I may or may not have made up on the spot. It serves no purpose other than to make everyone involved look lazy since the entire point of debating during the game is to provide evidence.

Remember, science isn't about being right, it's about becoming right.

Whoa, back up a second.
I'm scum because after disagreeing with the idea of putting my vote on the current bandwagons, I leave it on a person who's not on being bandwagoned?

I don't like how Alice threw around the cheerleading charge in post 75. Isn't that only for when Scum tries to support random bandwagons without throwing their vote for the cause? I've never encouraged a lynch that didn't currently have my vote on it so far.

I'm really looking down on Roukanken's play so far this day one. His vote on Chaore was for a dumbtell (Scum is not more likely to forget to revote on day one than Town are), And the argument against UK doesn't do anything except waste a page and possibly net brownie points with/for Kilgamayan.
##Unvote: huh what
##Vote: Roukanken

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Wow, 4 pages already? Gonna comment as I read along I guess.

Zakeri, care to add something other than snarking at the bandwagons you think are stupid? You also apprently think that all these bandwagons with minor reasoning are worse than a random vote with no meaning at all?

Chaore's Alice unvote then not voting anybody else afterwards strikes me as kinda odd. It doesn't actually seem bad but it seems rather off. If he isn't for silly things, why jokevote in the first place? Also his OMGUS on Rou is really derpy. Getting bad vibes from him so far.

Neo, what are you even doing? At least obtain that mindset before posting. Also saying "lol I'll vote Zak because of what he said" isn't the best bandwagon jump. Plus, isn't it a bit early to be guessing scumpairs?

Furien, just because it's not bold doesn't mean it doesn't count. But whatever. Don't really agree with UK's vote on him, it seems like he's playing badly, not scummy. Don't really think "Oh I'm new" as an excuse makes somebody seems scummy even if it is stupid. It is kind of irritating considering that Furien said he's played mafia before, though. Would like to see more content from him before actually pinning him as scummy.

New Zak post: That's nice. Anything else to add on, you know, the recent events?

Where are Zentillion and Kefit? No post from either so far. I don't think K4U has posted since RVS either.

Content with my vote on Zak because ROU HAS TOUCHED MY HEART AND I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT. Seriously, though, at the moment he has still failed to actually contribute to the discussion beyond being snarky and explaining a term he "may or may not have made up on the spot". Would like to see more for him. Don't feel that bad about anybody else except Chaore, but I'm going to keep my eye on Furien in the future.

[Serela]

Neo, what are you even doing? At least obtain that mindset before posting. Also saying "lol I'll vote Zak because of what he said" isn't the best bandwagon jump. Plus, isn't it a bit early to be guessing scumpairs?

Trying and doing incredibly terribly, apparently. I was planning on going "after rereading through everything I changed my mind", but unfortunately, after doing so I realized that I really did want to keep my vote. I spent awhile afterwards reading specific bits of data to come up with reasons of my own, but apparently I ended up mimicking what other people already said in the process.

As for the scumpair thing, I probably should have erased it from my post-in-progress. It was pretty much just vomiting words onto the typing screen to bounce ideas off myself, and I even went "this idea is terrible and I'll just forget it" in the paragraph. It wasn't much of a serious speculation in the first place.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Hey, wait a minute. Why is Furien still voting Alice? This makes him seem somewhat worse to me.

[WHMZakeri]

That's nice. Anything else to add on, you know, the recent events?

Nothing that doesn't amount to "These people are goodposting!" and "Those are new bandwagons" Which I felt were both useless to add.

Actually Furien claims in 83 that he didn't mean to vote, likely in responce to Edible's votecount including it despite not being bolded.

Which then means He's never voted once all game!

So, Rou, you've voted Chaore for unvoting and Me for keeping a joke vote. How's it feel to completely miss this? :/

[Carthrat]

The case on voting Zak so far is 'he called us names and didn't do anything else', not especially scummy early d1. Since he just tossed out a vote on Rou he can hardly be said to not be commenting on recent events, like huhwhat just suggested.

Hey, hey UK, you were totally trying to provoke Rou

Read the rest of my statement Rou? And stop strawmanning? You've made enough hay to feed a horse for a year.
I'd like you to start actually addressing existing arguments rather than trying to bullshit your way through. Thanks .

This was in response to basically a request for additional clarification. you lose nothing by being polite and telling him concisely why the 'burden of proof' returned to him, even if you have to do it twice. Also you meta'd to vote on kilga by saying he's not acting like Kilga early. fffff  ##Vote: UK

DAY ONE STRONG

[Carthrat]

GRR ##Unvote, ##Vote: UK

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Since he just tossed out a vote on Rou he can hardly be said to not be commenting on recent events, like huhwhat just suggested.

The quotes tags are broken. I thought he did that a while ago and was quoting it now in response to the complaints. (I only realized he never posted it after I made my post)

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

As in, the quote tags breaking made me think he was quoting an earlier post by himself.

[The ⑨th Zentillion]

I DIDN'T FORGET.  :V
As this is the first day, and there is mainly nothing to go on, my vote was decided via dieroll on AIM.

##Vote: Kitten4U

Don't blame me, blame AIM, K4U.
I'll start voting via observations and such on Day 2, as first days are usually crapshoots anyway, right? :V

[Furienify]

Actually Furien claims in 83 that he didn't mean to vote, likely in responce to Edible's votecount including it despite not being bolded.

Which then means He's never voted once all game!

This! Thank you. I'd vote UK for trying to crucify me so quickly, but that would be a bit of an OMGUS, so ##FoS: UK at the very least.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Zentillion: You do realize we're way out of the RVS now, right?

[Kitten4u]

Guess who fell asleep earlier? :V  Anyway, first stuff:

I don't think K4U has posted since RVS either.

Considering what happened last game it's probably not all bad that I haven't said anything worth while until now.  I actually have info and I can do something more useful than random gut vote.

---

Second newbies:
None of the newbies are looking great.  Neo has a couple of shifty bandwagon hops and seems to really like playing the newbie card.  Furi has like done nothing at all yet and I (personally) think that there is enough stuff happen for him to say SOMETHING useful.  Same goes for Zen.  HOWEVER, I'm not willing to declare any of them scum yet.  They both get newbie leniency from me, but they both really, really need to start producing.  Neo's already answered this, so I'll ask Furi and Zen.  Who is scum?

I'll start voting via observations and such on Day 2, as first days are usually crapshoots anyway, right?

No, this is not acceptable.  We have lynched scum on D1 several times before.  Post your observations now please.

I think UK looks worse than Rou from that back and forth, though the whole thing was pretty terrible.  Only good that came from it was UK explaining that the Kilga vote was mostly gut so I can at least stop looking at the Kilga "case" weirdly.  I'm not getting where people are getting "scum-vibes" from Kilga.

I dislike that Zak was all "let's bandwagon people!" without doing anything himself.  I agree with Alice's cheerleading charge, though in this case the cheerleading isn't so much "I like this lynch better but guy B is very suspicious and he should consider my vote to be on him too!" as it is "cool, bandwagons.  Let's wait and see what happens with them."  Recent content is making feel a little better, but I'm still wary of him.

Chaore I do think is probable scum.  I don't so much mind that he took his vote off without revoting for someone else (it's useless, but I'm not convinced it's scummy, Kitten4u needs more data), but his reactions after were really bad.  His vote for Rou was basically OMGUS while putting words in Rou's mouth (at least, it didn't sound like that's what Rou was saying at all imo), which is just terrible.

Happy with my vote for now. 

Sorry for wall etc.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

##Unvote

After noticing the mistake I made reading the quote box and mulling it over a bit, Zak seems a lot better to me. Will keep my eye on him in the future incase he reverts to snarking again, but he seems good at the moment.

##Vote UncertainKitten

I?m not buying her claim that there was no malicious intent in her? discussion with Rou. This especially shows in #65, which feels like she?s trying to provoke him into raging or continuing arguing with her, which would distract one townie (if Rou is town) and causing more pointless arguing to fill up the page as a distraction. Aside from that her vote on Kilga is ridiculous. Posting a votecount on its own should not be a tell for town or scum, since it?s helpful to both sides to some extent. The only reason I could see that would make him look bad for that is if he had posted no content aside from the votecount and was using it to active lurk, which he wasn?t. The rest of her case seems to be based on gut and meta, and if it isn?t she didn?t explain herself very well. The whole thing feels like a distraction to me. She hasn?t done much else at all other than pick on newbies.

Speaking of picking on newbies, Furien? didn?t unvote <_< I know his vote wasn?t supposed to count, but the mod counted it before so he should at least unvote. Also, why is he FoSing UK over a vote because he thinks his vote would be an OMGUS? That?s arguably worse than making an OMGUS vote since it means he?s not doing anything with his vote at all

[Furienify]

##Unvote: Alice

I was always raised to think OMGUS's were terrible to do outside of joke day-1 situations.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

There's a difference between an OMGUS and a reasonable vote on somebody who happens to have their vote on you. But from what you've been doing so far it doesn't like you've been shooting for the latter at all.

[Kitten4u]

Furi, I'll ask again.  Who is scum and why?

[The ⑨th Zentillion]

##Unvote: K4U, 'cause it's time to get super serial!
##Vote: ... Hang on...

Let's see, UK is being pretty danged defensive for someone who insists they're not scum this time around. It also seems, from my observation that she turns out to be scum a lot, so it would seem prerogative to take her out right now if she is scum and deal with the repercussions later if she turned out to be a townie this time. However, I'm also willing to give benefit of the doubt... "today".

Chaore. Someone was being a little overreactive when the fingers started pointing at what was a dumb, misinformed post for initials. Of course, it's quite possible he doesn't enjoy being accused because he IS a townie, and he also presented a nice case that had Rou change his vote, and i'm willing to believe it for the time being.

Zakeri's snarkiness and other things are possible scum behavior and to me seems a little... sacrificial and cheerleadery. But, hey, benefit of the doubt has also been provided. But... not enough of it for me.

Of course, there's also Rou, being so sure of Zak and then changing his vote suddenly - of course, perhaps he actually believes Zak... or he's seesawing in an attempt to make us all believe he's a townie and is actually scum. still, there's enough doubt from me that I can't decide on where he lies.

The others don't seem to have anything that makes me say one way or the other... and of course, there's also myself... but I am not a self-voting type of guy.

Oh, and K4U, since you're being nice and helpful, I can do nothing but trust you. For now...

now, where was I going with this? Ah yes.

##Vote: Zakeri

[Edible]

Who loves ya?

Zakeri (4): Kilgamayan. Roukanken, Serela, Zentillion
Chaore (2): Kitten4u, Roukanken
huh what (1): Zakeri
Furienify (2): Alice Margatroid, UncertainKitten
Serela (1): Chaore
UncertainKitten (2): Carthrat, huh what


No vote: Kefit

You have around 48 hours or so.

[Furienify]

Let's see, UK is being pretty danged defensive for someone who insists they're not scum this time around. It also seems, from my observation that she turns out to be scum a lot, so it would seem prerogative to take her out right now if she is scum and deal with the repercussions later if she turned out to be a townie this time. However, I'm also willing to give benefit of the doubt... "today".

I may at odds with her this game, but this is terrible logic and fairly straw-grasping.

##Vote: Zentillion

For now, I hope this suffices as an answer for huh what.

[The ⑨th Zentillion]

Furi: Um, um, er... well, yes, looking that over, the logic does seem a little wacky there, and perhaps a little discriminatory-via-rep, but this is the first day and a little grasping is what I can go by, at least for the time being. I could have just as easily slammed down she was scum, but I'm not because, well, what if I turn out to be wrong? I do see scumminess, but I also see plenty of towniness. I'm willing to give everyone benefit of the doubt... perhaps i'm just a really nice guy... or I'm scum like you say. But don't vote me off on fallacies... vote me off if you see genuine scummy manipulation.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Where is the genuine scummy manipulation you see in Zakeri, then?

[Furienify]

Furi: Um, um, er... well, yes, looking that over, the logic does seem a little wacky there, and perhaps a little discriminatory-via-rep, but this is the first day and a little grasping is what I can go by, at least for the time being. I could have just as easily slammed down she was scum, but I'm not because, well, what if I turn out to be wrong? I do see scumminess, but I also see plenty of towniness. I'm willing to give everyone benefit of the doubt... perhaps i'm just a really nice guy... or I'm scum like you say. But don't vote me off on fallacies... vote me off if you see genuine scummy manipulation.

I wish I knew how to multi-quote, but in response to both you and huh what:

I've used this sort of mentality before as a scum. Generally trying to hide in the back; claiming I'm too polite ('nice') to be aggressive and get on people's case. Not willing to stir shit up to get people to potentially slip up. Generally speaking, it helps you avoid slipping up yourself.

The entire post was full of blanket statements in general- well, person X is doing this, and so is Y, while Z is off knitting in the corner. Everything to push attention out from yourself, while playing nanny and essentially giving us a play-by-play. Doing everything to fly under the radar.

(Bed time for now, will post in the morning if I have time.)

[The ⑨th Zentillion]

Huh: Well, uh, I meant manipulation from myself, but yes, it should be a two-way street, shouldn't it? I'll think about my vote a little more, got some hours left still... may change, may not. :derp: All I can say right now is, if you have your judgment, trust it if you must, but do remember benefit of the doubt. Right now my mind won't let go of Zakeri.

Furi: Eheh, you posted while I was replying to huh what. Anyway, those are very good reasons for you to label me as scum, and wow, I can't come up with any good defenses other than "make sure you're absolutely sure", and well, you sound sure of very possible scumplay. All I can really do is hope everyone else doesn't turn their votes towards me. Which could be likely.  :ohdear:

...Lordy, I'm doing terribly in my first mafia here, whatever role I really am. Ah well, this is about being entertained. And I am.

[Kilgamayan]

Case on UK is largely uninteresting, UK tends to think she's a proper judge of her own actions in a Mafia game regardless of her alignment. Not a scumtell, just a playstyle flaw that needs to be fixed.

Cases on newbies are mostly uninteresting, they're newbies making newbie mistakes gasp shock awe. I could maybe buy into a Zentillion case because lolbandwagon but his bigpost looks like he's actually trying even if he got some factual stuff wrong in the UK section so eh. I...guess I'm willing to vote him, but I don't feel great about it.

Want clarification from K4U regarding "I'm not getting where people are getting "scum-vibes" from Kilga" because I'm pretty sure UK was the only one that thought me scummy. Feeling kinda weird about her post on the whole; the Chaore section is decent but the rest of it...man I don't know. Looks like indecision + rehash + comments on newbies designed to make her look better rather than actually accomplish anything. Willing to vote her.

Happy with Zakvote, he hasn't really done anything to make me want to move it yet. Case on Roukan is unimpressive even for a Day 1 Case, though detailed defense should come from Roukan himself.

[Kilgamayan]

Changed my mind on Zentillion, not really willing to vote him anymore based solely on what he's brought to the table so far. I'm having a hard time seeing why he's more likely to do what he's done as newbscum than newbtown.

[FinnKaenbyou]

OK OK OK OK so.

UK goes for the easy target in one of the new guys. Chaore then proceeds to vote ANOTHER new player. Except really they're all saying stuff that's just newbtells, not scumtells, so yeah.

Whoa, back up a second.
I'm scum because after disagreeing with the idea of putting my vote on the current bandwagons, I leave it on a person who's not on being bandwagoned?

More like 'you disregarded the cases that were out in the open, stuck to a vote with more or less no valid reasoning (why was huh what any less of an idiot than the players you called out in #48? As in, about half the players?) and basically goaded people to jump on the other wagons'.
And another OMGUS. Yeah, not impressed.

So, Rou, you've voted Chaore for unvoting and Me for keeping a joke vote. How's it feel to completely miss this?

Because it's clear Furienify has no idea what he's doing? You've been playing here for years, literally.
Also, stop play gotcha games with me. Happy with my vote.

[Carthrat]

ZENTILION POWER

For a moment I'm going to ape UK's famous Postlength Extension Methodology and quote a lot, since examples help this time!

Let's see, UK is being pretty danged defensive for someone who insists they're not scum this time around. It also seems, from my observation that she turns out to be scum a lot, so it would seem prerogative to take her out right now if she is scum and deal with the repercussions later if she turned out to be a townie this time. However, I'm also willing to give benefit of the doubt... "today".

Super bad! We lynch people for scumminess! Not because they're... scum often...? 'take her out right now if she's scum, deal with it if she's townie later' is pretty logically bad. Also at the end of this post there is a ZENTILION SPECIAL where he lets her off the hook, undoing his previous accusations!

Chaore. Someone was being a little overreactive when the fingers started pointing at what was a dumb, misinformed post for initials. Of course, it's quite possible he doesn't enjoy being accused because he IS a townie, and he also presented a nice case that had Rou change his vote, and i'm willing to believe it for the time being.

ZENTILION SPECIAL

Of course, there's also Rou, being so sure of Zak and then changing his vote suddenly - of course, perhaps he actually believes Zak... or he's seesawing in an attempt to make us all believe he's a townie and is actually scum. still, there's enough doubt from me that I can't decide on where he lies.

ZENTILION SPECIAL

That's a lot of flipflopping, ZENTILION. How do you explain this, ZENTILION? I am very suspicious, ZENTILION! There is a big pointing finger of suspicion pointing at you, ZENTILION!

Kilga, this kind of flipflopping is not a neutral newbie tell! This is of GENUINE BADNESS!!!! because flipflopping around on cases gives an out to both ways and helps to pad out your posts and there's no reason to include second-guessing yourself. also he's not lynching based on scumminess, this can be shown by his rationale for not voting UK. 'benefit of the doubt', ok. so. why don't you give Zakeri that same benefit? It's a catch-all thing that seems to let him not lynch someone for free.

##Unvote, ##Vote: ZENTILION also zak bandwagon.

(sorry about that. Zentilion is a cool name though. Go on, say it out loud.)