Author Topic: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan  (Read 24061 times)

Solais

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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2010, 09:56:17 AM »
*wall of text*

tl;dr We will be free from the fanon stupidity soon enough!

Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2010, 10:21:05 AM »
Is there any report that refutes this fact?

I mean after all, no matter what people believe, there will always be one person who says otherwise.

What law was this again?

Sturgeon's law?
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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2010, 12:28:26 PM »
Stuff that makes sense
That's a pretty good point, given how popular Touhou is.

This only makes me wonder how long we got before the inevitable happens.
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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2010, 07:48:10 PM »
Define "the inevitable."

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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2010, 07:55:14 PM »
Define "the inevitable."

the fall of an empire.

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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2010, 08:05:00 PM »
Define "the inevitable."
in?ev?i?ta?ble ( n- v -t -b l). adj. 1. Impossible to avoid or prevent.

Seriously though, you can't possibly think this will go on forever. Eventually this will all burn out at some point, the time at which this actually happens is unknown, but trust me...it WILL happen. As they say; nothing lasts forever.
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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2010, 08:10:39 PM »
Right ... sorry, I probably need a nap. |3

OkashiiKisei

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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2010, 08:11:01 PM »
in?ev?i?ta?ble ( n- v -t -b l). adj. 1. Impossible to avoid or prevent.

Seriously though, you can't possibly think this will go on forever. Eventually this will all burn out at some point, the time at which this actually happens is unknown, but trust me...it WILL happen. As they say; nothing lasts forever.

*puts 'make Touhou immortal' on To-Do list*

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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2010, 08:45:07 PM »
*puts 'make Touhou immortal' on To-Do list*
BAKA!

*thrusts cane into Okashii's face*

That is a foolish errand!

Spoiler:
Yep...time to put the Soul Eater down for the day...
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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2010, 10:05:07 AM »
Define "the inevitable."

because the Touhou fandom spawns more fandoms, in the end when the attention dies out of disinterest, the whole thing also dies, including ZUN games. ZUN music will no longer be mixed, you get no input, Reitaisai will be no more.

It is not so much as the fandom dying really, that comes back when a new generation of fans pick it up. As it is however, I don't see that happening, face it, why play a 640x480 shooting game when even 1600x1200 res games are available? 60fps? Damn man, are we in 1989? Shooting games need to progress, and the game needs sustained attention from fans and loyal players alike, the ones that create fandumb as so properly labelled, are also part of that support. (Hey even Dodonpachi improved over the years, and we have something like Deathsmiles that is very innotative.)

Once the lifeline is snuffed out from what I believe will be a majority of interested parties, there is a chance that no one will even consider contributing to the Touhou franchise. I won't write off fandumb support as being non-important just yet. Face it, some of you probably youtube/nico'd your way here.
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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2010, 11:17:37 AM »
Define "the inevitable."

Touhou dies, everyone plays Battle Garegga for score. :V
"... but what is certain is that the average consumer will continue to rest easy on his Record of Agarest War pillow case knowing that his games will continue to be packaged with things that he will never look at or use" - Jeremy Petter - ENN

OkashiiKisei

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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2010, 01:28:47 PM »
The idea of Touhou vanishing makes me extremely depressive :( I just can't comprehend what it is like without Touhou.


Although, the Mario franchise has lived for 20 years, and it is still going greatly. Mario is still Mr. Video Game. He helped making games mainstream. And it looks like he won't die anytime soon. Isn't it possible that Touhou may gain Mario's immortality? Final Fantasy is also going on for almost as long, and that series truly doesn't look like it will ever end. Some series truly are immortal as long as their company keeps existing. I don't believe we should condemn Touhou's fate like this. Touhou has a far more amazing fandom than any on Earth. This series will go on far beyond ZUN's retirement/passing away. Another team will pick it up in honor of ZUN and continue it for him. I am sure of it.

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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2010, 04:10:07 PM »
Mario updated their franchise semi regularly. It is also backed by popular demand over the ages and it was what we grew up with. (much like Zelda) and if Final Fantasy can die, I doubt Touhou can survive the onslaught of oversupply.

what has it to offer? other than pretty crayon girls and colorful bullets over 640x480 screens of 8bit- or instrumental music?
It needs refinement, and upgrades.
WE HAVE TO MAKE IT HARDER BETTER FASTER STRONGER
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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2010, 04:47:49 PM »
The idea of Touhou vanishing makes me extremely depressive :( I just can't comprehend what it is like without Touhou.


Although, the Mario franchise has lived for 20 years, and it is still going greatly. Mario is still Mr. Video Game. He helped making games mainstream. And it looks like he won't die anytime soon. Isn't it possible that Touhou may gain Mario's immortality? Final Fantasy is also going on for almost as long, and that series truly doesn't look like it will ever end. Some series truly are immortal as long as their company keeps existing. I don't believe we should condemn Touhou's fate like this. Touhou has a far more amazing fandom than any on Earth. This series will go on far beyond ZUN's retirement/passing away. Another team will pick it up in honor of ZUN and continue it for him. I am sure of it.
Okashii, you're my buddy and all, but you're placing WAY too much credit into Touhou's popularity, dude.

Yes, it's popular, yes it has ALOT of doujins out going for it. But you have to remember, Touhous NOT like any other video game we've played, like say Mario or Sonic, that have existed for well on a decade and still come out with games that thounsands (hell maybe millions) of people buy. As AF already said, Touhou rarely has much change to it, while the other games have at least one large factor about them that is constantly updated or improved upon. Honestly, we have essentially 13 games out for Touhou and not one of them is different from the other when you stop and think about it.

-Miko senses something is up
-Miko investigaes, beats up a couple girls on her way to the truth
-Mastermind appears, commence final battle
-End

Think about it. Does that sound like any commercial game to you? Surely, a game like Mario or Sonic wouldn't have such a simple plotline? Sure it was like that before, but now look...we have plotlines that are FAR more advanced than Touhous could ever be. At this point, we're basically sitting in front of a screen wondering on what kinda loli we will have to shoot pretty bullets at. I mean come ON...we all know what's going to happen in the end once we beat the final boss...

They all forgive each other and be friends, pretty rainbows and happy puppies (okay that last one was horribly misplaced). No one ever dies due to plot, there's no secret twist to any of said plots, no dramatic reveals, or anything like that. It's all the same. Hell there isn't even any FUCKING replay value save for 1cc something or unlocking extra. Besides this, we pretty much got a decent time waster on our hands, something only good for 6 stages and that's it.

I am a living example of the fan with a dying interest in Touhou; I've been absolutely ravenous for a change in Touhou for a while now. However, I already know that said changes have a  very low chance of occuring ,due to how painfully static the games really are and how ZUN essentially keeps pumping out the same thing like he's scared of changing something he's supposed to have fun with making.

It's like I said before many, many times; There needs to be a change in Touhou, if it ever wants to survive. If another team DOES pick it up, I truly hope they change it for the better, because what we have now is growing stagnant and rotten before our very eyes.

EDIT: Of course, this isn't saying you HAVE to accept the inevitable fate of Touhou. Bubsy still has fans out there, and that series is pretty much confirmed to be dead. If Bubsy can still have fans after a franchise death, then so can Touhou. Think of it like a post-apocolyptic scenerio; there's a global disaster that's left the world and populace desolate and barren save for a few. Those few who have survived the cataclysm will live on a rebuild. It may not be the same, but at least they're sustaining themselves and keeping each other alive.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2010, 05:12:34 PM by ☠Mudoon☠ Erebus »
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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #44 on: April 16, 2010, 05:35:54 PM »
what has it to offer? other than pretty crayon girls and colorful bullets over 640x480 screens of 8bit- or instrumental music?
It needs refinement, and upgrades.
WE HAVE TO MAKE IT HARDER BETTER FASTER STRONGER
It has been TOO LONG, I admit, since any big changes have been made (the last "big" one was the new engine). However, you have to admit that every franchise you guys are comparing to Touhou isn't fair in the sense that it's a 1-man show vs. an entire studio. Zun's only HUMAN AFTER ALL,  it's not like he can snap his fingers and *poof* have 1080hp graphics. It would require a REVOLUTION in the franchise; or at the least taking a break ONE MORE TIME.

(Sorry, had to get that out of my system).

Honestly, it would be nice for Zun to take a break for a few years and come back with a whole new system. But how do you go about convincing him that? Really, stagnant as Touhou is, it's hard to say how it'll die. It's easy to say that it's festering, but it'd be nice to have numbers that support it. Right now it all depends on sales of the actual games and the feedback he gets from fans. Unless numbers are down and people are clamoring for him to take another years-long break and upgrade his engine again, or rethink how he's building his world, he may not have any incentive to do so. In fact the opposite may be true.

Also, one could argue Zelda's stagnant too, at least from what I've seen, and yet it's arguably Nintendo's biggest franchise. Aside from slightly different worlds and 1-2 unique mechanics (wind, wolf), the series hasn't grown much since OoT, which is one of the reasons I still haven't played much since Majora's Mask. Wind Waker could've breathed new life, but casual fans hated the change; they ripped apart young Link and the cartoonish style, and thus Nintendo went back to realism for Twilight Princess, which became one of the biggest games of the series (ok, so part of that was that they delayed it to be released with the Wii, but still the hype leading to it compared to WW was night and day).



Quote
ZUN essentially keeps pumping out the same thing like he's scared of changing something he's supposed to have fun with making.

Maybe I missed an interview, but...

What if he likes building his games this way. The biggest eras of change in Touhou were 1-3 (3 different game types) and 5-6 (new platform). Since then he's released 1 duel game (PoFV) and 2 camera games (STB, DS) and 1 new engine, other than that everything has been the same. Maybe he likes making shooters staring cute girls with little/no plot. After all, the biggest things for him, IIRC, were the danmaku and the music.




(Honestly this post was mainly for the Daft Punk jokes, but I wanted to bring up an opposing view as well. At worst I get ripped to shreds with evidence and I learn something new about ZUN and the franchise I didn't before).
« Last Edit: April 16, 2010, 05:37:28 PM by Mimeslayer »

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OkashiiKisei

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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #45 on: April 16, 2010, 05:56:29 PM »
The sad, painful truth.

The truth hurts :(

It has been TOO LONG, I admit, since any big changes have been made (the last "big" one was the new engine). However, you have to admit that every franchise you guys are comparing to Touhou isn't fair in the sense that it's a 1-man show vs. an entire studio. Zun's only HUMAN AFTER ALL,  it's not like he can snap his fingers and *poof* have 1080hp graphics. It would require a REVOLUTION in the franchise; or at the least taking a break ONE MORE TIME.

Also, one could argue Zelda's stagnant too, at least from what I've seen, and yet it's arguably Nintendo's biggest franchise. Aside from slightly different worlds and 1-2 unique mechanics (wind, wolf), the series hasn't grown much since OoT, which is one of the reasons I still haven't played much since Majora's Mask. Wind Waker could've breathed new life, but casual fans hated the change; they ripped apart young Link and the cartoonish style, and thus Nintendo went back to realism for Twilight Princess, which became one of the biggest games of the series (ok, so part of that was that they delayed it to be released with the Wii, but still the hype leading to it compared to WW was night and day).



Maybe I missed an interview, but...

What if he likes building his games this way. The biggest eras of change in Touhou were 1-3 (3 different game types) and 5-6 (new platform). Since then he's released 1 duel game (PoFV) and 2 camera games (STB, DS) and 1 new engine, other than that everything has been the same. Maybe he likes making shooters staring cute girls with little/no plot. After all, the biggest things for him, IIRC, were the danmaku and the music.

1st point: I just meant that the fanbase is more active than any other fanbase, not that ZUN is as influential and powerful as Nintendo and Sega. I meant the sheer fan-power might keep the series immortal. After all, we're talking about the fandom that has made a full blown doujin anime for the game. And don't let me get started on the high quality doujin games and musix videos. I don't see Mario and Sonic fans doing that on such a grand scale.

2nd point: Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks say hi.

3rd point: Well ZUN has stated himself that he made the games solely for his very own amusement. He explicitly stated in an interview that he wouldn't care if the fandom died. He'd still have his own games to enjoy. He mainly made Touhou since not much else appealed to him, so he decided to make his own games to fulfill his needs. Essentially, ALL of the Touhou games are made just because ZUN felt like it, and all have mechanics that appeal to his own tastes. Based on that statement I don't think he's going to make many dramatic changes gameplay wise. Maybe he make more stages in one game and a more dramatic plot, perhaps throw in a male character or two (which seems plausible since ever that Myouren thing), but he's going to have to take a break if he seriously wants to make a big change for the next one.

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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #46 on: April 16, 2010, 06:10:32 PM »
None of these are facts, not sure why you guys are making them out to be that way.
It seems like nobody knows that Touhou  is massively popular because of reasons OTHER than it being a STG. I mean just look at the Touhou popularity contest, I forget what it was, but while being able to vote on 3 different aspects of Touhou that you like, the games were near the bottom..

Touhou isn't about a series of STGs that refuse to change, that's merely what started it. Now I'm not saying Touhou interest might take a huge hit sometime in the future (which I don't t hink is soon btw). But sometimes things CAN live for a long ass time without changing. Look at Elvis for example, people STILL make records of the guy, and he's been dead for years! It's not like there are any new songs from him either. It's not 1 nut job out of every 10000 either. Games like Mario and Sonic are still popular  because their developers keep making games for them. Touhou fans are still making games for Touhou, and I'm pretty sure most of those fans are fueled by fanon just as much as canon, or else the games wouldn't have so much fanon-based content themselves.

Solais

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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #47 on: April 16, 2010, 06:12:21 PM »
Except maybe PoFV, what he made to the fandom as a fanservice game, as he stated in another interview.

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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #48 on: April 16, 2010, 06:16:12 PM »
-Miko senses something is up
-Miko investigaes, beats up a couple girls on her way to the truth
-Mastermind appears, commence final battle
-End

You forgot the tea parties.

Oh, and I figure Touhou'll die out around 2-3 years after ZUN dies of liver failure. Which is to say, not in this century.

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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #49 on: April 16, 2010, 07:17:34 PM »
- There are 52 more adult only Touhou doujins than there are ALL #2 (= Vocaloid) doujins
- There are 98 more Touhou doujins than there are from ALL TITLES FROM #2 TO  #14 COMBINED OMG O_O
THIRTEEN MOST POPULAR titles COMBINED can't beat Touhou. WIN.
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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #50 on: April 16, 2010, 07:24:00 PM »
Erebus, with all due respect, you seem lately to be making it your personal mission to be sure everyone is aware of your general dissatisfaction with the games. If you're wondering if anyone's caught on, I can assure you, we have.

I believe the popularity of the games will probably fade. I'd say it's a near certainty. It is a certainty that the series will one day stop. I'm not really sure what this changes though. One day the person you love the most will die. And so you enjoy the time you have with them now.

I'm not saying to be quiet about what you don't like about the games, of course. Just that you lately seem to be venting and repeating yourself when it comes to this subject is all.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2010, 07:36:21 PM by Tengu☆kami »

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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #51 on: April 17, 2010, 03:19:48 AM »
Yeah, you're like Ruro was with Nue a while back. And, like with her, we do not take issue with the fact that you don't like some parts of it (or at least I don't -- I mean, I have my fare share of bones to pick), just with the fact that you seem to bring it up in every thread you post in at TARC.

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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #52 on: April 17, 2010, 11:14:09 AM »
Well I haven't been reading the walls of text here, but wow, Touhou is popular.

I just wish I knew a good source for buying touhou doujin in england. Especialy of the musical kind.

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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #53 on: April 17, 2010, 11:35:30 AM »
Okashii let me put it this way:

until fans can give a full anime series, that is not done by one person (Tokine, you are one awesome motherfucker) oh hey, Touhou will still suffer from oversupply.

What I am saying is not influence, it is common progress. Product Life Cycle dictates that now seems to be at least approaching the Touhou maturity part, and from here on it is either a steady decline to death, or ZUN gives up. However, as are all economic situations, the solution to quick and quiet death is to make enough noise, or change your product to match up with competitors.


http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/~renglish/370/notes/chapt11/life_cycle_01.gif

for full reference

You think players compare a company with a guy's game? That is what fandom does, players of a game do not care at the end of the day if it was designed by one man or one army, it is a game, if it has nothing to offer, it will have to stay stagnant or dead in the water.

« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 11:37:08 AM by ♛Alstroemeria »
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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #54 on: April 17, 2010, 01:35:31 PM »
I wouldn't say that Touhou's popularity has stagnated or decreased until there's a moderate decline in the number of booths at Comiket/Reitaisai and similar events. Seeing as how Reitaisai this year was bigger than last year and they STILL had to turn down a bunch of applications, I think there's still life in it for a little while longer.

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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #55 on: April 17, 2010, 05:05:56 PM »
I'd have to agree. All things must end some time, we all know, but it doesn't look like the sun is setting on Gensokyo for the last time just yet.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Kinzo the Astro Curious

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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2010, 05:09:06 PM »
And thank (insert favirote gensokyo shrine here)'s god for that because I cant get enough of the music.

Litterally, I can't because I cant find where to get some of it  :V

OkashiiKisei

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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #57 on: April 17, 2010, 05:44:40 PM »

Okashii let me put it this way:

until fans can give a full anime series, that is not done by one person (Tokine, you are one awesome motherfucker) oh hey, Touhou will still suffer from oversupply.

What I am saying is not influence, it is common progress. Product Life Cycle dictates that now seems to be at least approaching the Touhou maturity part, and from here on it is either a steady decline to death, or ZUN gives up. However, as are all economic situations, the solution to quick and quiet death is to make enough noise, or change your product to match up with competitors.


http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/~renglish/370/notes/chapt11/life_cycle_01.gif

for full reference

You think players compare a company with a guy's game? That is what fandom does, players of a game do not care at the end of the day if it was designed by one man or one army, it is a game, if it has nothing to offer, it will have to stay stagnant or dead in the water.



I truly, with all my heart, cannot imagine the disappearance of Touhou. I am incapable of comprehending it. Like all the popular game series I've played I just cannot imagine that one day it will end. The fanbase is still so bustling, and puts so much effort in their work. I cannot imagine them ever giving it up. And what I defiantly cannot comprehend is that the girls might one day be forgotten. They are so memorable. I don't see why anyone could ever forget them.

And don't say stuff like it is about to end! Who knows how long it will still live? It might still survive for years to come! And like multiple people on this thread said, the business is still bustling! I cannot see the end of it.

And why is oversupply a bad thing? And Touhou isn't about profit, it is about fun. That is ZUN's motivation. He started it for fun, and is still doing it for fun, like he said in his interview.

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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2010, 05:49:29 PM »
Read NForza's post and have a warrm glass of milk. AF's pushing your buttons.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

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Re: Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan
« Reply #59 on: April 17, 2010, 06:15:55 PM »
yeah, relax dude.

I am only saying that it will end, because like all good things, too much of it is never good. However, I said nothing about the time frame, this can happen in the next quarter century, or the next century, that is another 50 Touhou games by average!


as it is, every comiket looks to be filled with nothing but Touhou, do I think of it as  a bad thing? No, not really, trends shift from time to time, and like it or not Touhou is a trend, whether or not it will continue looks to how it will juggle with oversupply and well, if there is any demand it will stay. As it is, see for yourself in history, has a trend ever NOT ended? Every trend matures and subsequently gets replaced by something else. The important factor is whether this trend can live LONGER than other trends, and what it can do to lengthen itself over a variety of platforms. (hey Touhou on PS3? Xbox? OMG)

However, it doesn't mean if the franchise is no longer a popular trend it will die. There are still supporters, but how can supporters support a product that is quite simply not there enough? (the game itself) yes, you can support fanwork, but does the money go to ZUN? No. But this is of no importance, what I am saying is what can Touhou do to make it more enjoyable? What can make people come back beyond the fanwork (music etc) to the game itself? What can make the experience richer? Questions to ponder if you don't want a franchise to die.


People need to buy the games, if you were an outsider who never played a danmaku shooting game you would approach the game with much caution. Fun doesn't make money, money buys beer, without beer there is no Touhou, so.... yeah, how many times can ZUN recycle the plot of every game which was described by points in Erebus's earlier post remains to be seen.

I think of it as a wonderful fanbase, but well,

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And don't say stuff like it is about to end! Who knows how long it will still live? It might still survive for years to come! And like multiple people on this thread said, the business is still bustling! I cannot see the end of it.

it won't tomorrow, maybe not ten years to come, but it will need more than this to keep on going. Like I said, and which you might not have read all too clearly, Touhou needs more than a few girls per game, who shoots colorful bullet patterns to live on.

(Look at Deathsmiles, now that is a really provocative shooting game, both gaming factor and art wise)

I'd say it is a healthy growth for now, and I won't curse it to die, or just yet. What I see however, is that Touhou quite simply, by all means, NEED to improve. Someone said above a few years of no new games can bring about a new if not better piece of game from ZUN, given the one man army had more than enough time to contemplate his new work into a masterpiece. Rome is not built in a day, and so a game that took a few years to develop might just be the saving grace to the franchise for those intend on seeking the gaming experience that is so much needed in a Touhou game!

Who knows? It is still not impossible for the game itself to NOT be supported by fandom and still become an awesome piece of gaming gem! Tetris is still popular without much revision, can Touhou walk the same path? We can only see.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 06:25:01 PM by ♛Alstroemeria »
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