Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER

[Conqueror]

Goddammit Dormio. Can you move that post from that topic to this topic?

[Conqueror]

Zakeri, if your top scumpicks are in order of mention CF7, Sky Paladin and Serela, then why is your vote on Serela? It honestly reads like a votepark considering you're voting him "until he develops reads [...]" on basically others. That's an extremely lazy vote if you can just abandon it once Serela does develop reads.

Bard's comment on Zak in #182 (outright dislike this one, Zak explains his opinion on CF7 well and explains why he chose to vote Serela instead just as clearly, calling it a lazy vote is just scummy).

Early poke at Zak from Bard after Zak switches to Serela. BT attacks Bard for the poke. Not sure if these interactions are telling either way but no one's brought them up yet so I'm posting them here.

Some back and forth between me and BT about CF7, we've gone over this already. Bard, me and a few others ask for reasons why CF7 should be being wagoned.

CF7 should claim when he gets on.

I'm thinking BT would have given CF7 something to claim aside from "LOL NOT CLAIMING" after this if they were scum together. Bard's complaint about CF7 being completely incompetent at not claiming could be him getting mad at a scumbuddy.

Votecount
CF7 (4): NekoNekoRex, Shadoweh, BT, Kingault
Serela (3): Bardiche, Zakeri, CF7
Sky Paladin (2): Sacchi Hikaru, Serela
NekoNekoRex (1): SB
BT (1): DrRawr
Kingault (1): Sky Paladin
Zakeri (1): ActionDan
Shadoweh (1): Conqueror
Dr Rawr (0):
ActionDan (0):
SB (0):
Sacchi Hikaru (0):
Conqueror (0):
Bardiche (0):

If the scumteam is Bard/Zak/CF7 it means the entire counterwagon to CF7 early was scum. It's possible I suppose given the way CF7 jumped onto that wagon. There was a point after that when the Serela wagon and the CF7 wagon were tied at 5 votes each.

[Conqueror]

Start of D2, Bard and Zak both opine that CF7 was being bussed given the speed and lack of counerwagon.

Zak opens D2 with a strong attack on BT. I'm back to mulling over whether Zak thought it would be a good idea to bus BT given the position that scum was in (bad) especially with the double day.

I'll continue rereading this later. I think I might want to lynch Bard.

[Conqueror]

-Strongman

Is it even possible to strongman an untargettable? I actually think not being able to strongman your role is a point in your favour, because strongmanning what is essentially a full bp only to have it be inherited is rough. If the untargettable got lynched, well it would still be an issue but at least you lynched one of them. The counterargument to "full bp op" is that if scum inherited SB's governor you'd have "scum governor op" so that makes some sort of sense.

[BT]

Early poke at Zak from Bard after Zak switches to Serela. BT attacks Bard for the poke. Not sure if these interactions are telling either way but no one's brought them up yet so I'm posting them here.

I noticed it and I have a pretty good expalantion too.

Think about what Zak was doing - getting off CF7 to vote Serela instead. It was really weak and, from the third buddy's perspective, probably looked horrible. So they had a colored opinion on Zak's voteswitch and saw the need to point it out (and do nothing about it).

Meanwhile, Zak's post looked fine to me, since CF7's wagon was going to hit a lull because dude wasn't posting. So at the time I attacked Bard for attacking something that looked completely reasonable to me. One explanation was that he's scum, but another explanation is that they're both scum.

Start of D2, Bard and Zak both opine that CF7 was being bussed given the speed and lack of counerwagon.

I think you (or someone else) agreed at the time and, I'm pretty sure I ended up not doing it, but I wanted to post that I found it annoying and there wasn't any guarantee of bussing and that people shouldn't be starting there for scumhunting anyway.

What should be pointed out now, though, is how Bard mentions it, then talks about King and appoints him as the busser. And mentions Zak later in a really minor way. More could have been done to look at the wagon if them were the sentiments.

Is it even possible to strongman an untargettable? I actually think not being able to strongman your role is a point in your favour, because strongmanning what is essentially a full bp only to have it be inherited is rough. If the untargettable got lynched, well it would still be an issue but at least you lynched one of them. The counterargument to "full bp op" is that if scum inherited SB's governor you'd have "scum governor op" so that makes some sort of sense.

I'm not sure. We could ask Dormio who would win in Untargetable versus Strongman but I don't know what the significance of that would be - lynch is the more likely scenario anyway.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Votecount
BT (1): Bardiche
Bardiche (1): BT
Conqueror (0):
Sky Paladin (0):
Shadoweh (0):

Not voting: Conqueror, Sky Paladin, Shadoweh

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

You have ~28.5 hours remaining

[BT]

Missed Shadoweh's unvote.

I'll take a screenshot if I have to. You can't run away from your crimes.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Again, I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Bardiche]

What I like about BT's LYLO play here: he's jumping around a lot, taking in new information, making conclusions from that. He sounds as confused as the rest of us. Bard, this is what I find off about your LYLO play here. You basically decided on BT scum from the start of LYLO and have stuck with it since then. I mean, that's fine if you're right, but today was the first day you started looking at possible BT!scum.

It's LYLO?

@MOD: I thought LYLO would be announced?

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

@MOD: I thought LYLO would be announced?

*YLO will be announced.

[Conqueror]

My bad, it's not LYLO. But it feels like it.

[Bardiche]

But yeah, I think you're Town because Scum!Conq arguing not to lynch me yesterday was silly when he could've just ridden it out.

[Bardiche]

I'll go consider how scummy everyone else is if for some reason BT flips green.

[Conqueror]

;-;

Quick question while you're here then:

Bard, I know you said that Shadoweh was a hard read for you, but why her instead of so many other people given her position on the D1 CF7 wagon?

[Bardiche]

Because it's Shadoweh, and I wanted to be sure.

[Shadoweh]

Is it even possible to strongman an untargettable? I actually think not being able to strongman your role is a point in your favour, because strongmanning what is essentially a full bp only to have it be inherited is rough. If the untargettable got lynched, well it would still be an issue but at least you lynched one of them. The counterargument to "full bp op" is that if scum inherited SB's governor you'd have "scum governor op" so that makes some sort of sense.

Conq, don't you think it's actually worse for the scumteam if there are two unkillable townies?
In point of fact. I know Sky P's been trying, but I've been mulling over the Mystery of the Setup myself all day. We've been failing to take into account Rawr's role, and it's kind of important to do so because alot of this setup is balanced entirely around Rawr's existence. I present to you the problem of:

Rawrzilla, The Bulletproof Untargettable Serial Killer


So, when I said Rawr's role was garbage earlier, I was wrong. I was terribly, terribly wrong. Rawr's role is broken. Mainly because of the fact that Zakeri's role is an Abnormality, meaning Rawr could back up p much everyone's roles. As you can see in said clearly drawn illustration, as early as Day 3, if the stars align and we lynch Zakeri first, someone dies N1, BT is lynched Day 2 and say, Sky P kills CF7, Rawr becomes bulletproof with four kills. I don't know about you, but to me, that seems a little wrong. In this circumstance, if Bard is the scum, his recourse is assumedly to bend over and kiss his ass goodbye, followed by getting Dormio banned from hosting mafia forever.

I would go so far as to say the reason that Zakeri is a backup to CF7's kills is so the scumteam has two strongarms to kill Rawr with, both one early game and one on Day 5 when their kill types reset and Rawr might have claimed to have literally all the roles. It of course also counters SB, and BT if he's town. There are alot of really broken combinations that get countered by the scum as we know them. Zak + BT + SB makes Rawr a Bulletproof Untargetable Jailkeeper, who can still be killed by the JoaK, but a Bard scum alone would be shit out of luck again. BT + Bardiche makes a BP Tracker, countered by the double ninjas.

Looking at this from a checks and balances perspective: Town had two chances to have a Vig. Either through Sacchi targetting Sky P, or through Rawr absorbing the right roles. Two chances is a good enough reason imo to give at least one scum Bulletproof. If Bard is scum, Town had two chances at catching the scum through NK's, either through Sacchi and my role, or through Rawr absorbing his Tracker. If BT is scum, Town has three ways, which can be countered by all three scum, as well as whatever Bard's condition is. The question there is which is more likely, for scum to have to strongarm BT only to immediately be unable to strongarm the UberRawrmench, or for the only town informational role worth a damn to have a backup in case it goes south, ensuring town always has something?

I supose it's possible that Dormio and K4U both missed the way BT's role would interact with Rawr but.. I kind of think they wouldn't? It would be awkward if after losing two of the scumteam with Rawr alive the third's best option was to eat bullets and kill himself. I want to vote BT. I supose I will let everyone else see the way my mind works when I'm working first.

[BT]

I love you, but Zak's role works once per person, so if the factional kill counts per mafioso, rawr would get two kills, three if he gets SkyPal and Sacchi can enchant ALL of his actions (which isn't as broken as it sounds because he'd be picking only one of them anyway). There's also Dan's role which helps turn rawr useless if such a thing happens. I know, it's super swingy, I noticed how rawr absorbs Zak too, but I'm not sure whether I'm town or scum actually changes much. In fact, because of how this game and backups work it makes little difference if a role is town or scum - because it immediately turns into "started on town / started on scum".

[BT]

I'll agree that having one untargetable townie and another backup untargetable townie is weird, but I'm town, so. Blame Dormio.

[BT]

Wait.

Remodeling (Abnormality): Your abnormality allows you to remodel others, or even yourself, to gain new abilities or enhance existing ones. Lately the introduction of all these minuses have caused you to remodel yourself so that you possess one yourself, but you certainly wouldn't mind having more. Every time a player with a minus is killed, you will experiment on their corpse until you figure out how their minus works so that you can take it for yourself.

The End (Abnormality): You are, what some people would call, a genius. You have mastered every skill you have come across by having simply observed them. These abnormalities are no different. You will gain access to every abnormality that is eliminated from the popularity contest.

@mod: is this important?

[Sky_Paladin]

Sky, what the fuck are you talking about.

The things I think and say at two am don't always follow any kind of rational rules.

Bard claimed to have tracked me night 1. I claim to have seen him night 1. This is called 'confirming each other's actions'. Why are you so bad at understanding role actions ;_;

That's actually not correct.  Bard said he saw you target yourself.  You said you saw him target you.  Now, let's consider that if one of you are scum, that's not confirming at all.  Especially if Shadoweh was scum, saying "I saw Bard target me" after you already knew Bard targeted you (because he said it) doesn't actually confirm that you watched yourself.  It just confirms that you can read the thread and make a logical conclusion.  So I wanted to go back and check.  Did Bard really see you target yourself?  Or did he just come to that conclusion based on what he read.  Did you really watch yourself or did you just say that you did because somebody said that they saw you do it? 

I was unable to work out where the existence of a roleblock on day 4 came from.  It seemed that you pulled 'Bard or Zak was roleblocked on night 3' from thin air and I wanted to know how you knew it.  Bard gave no indication he was roleblocked that I could see, until day 5 when he was asked who he tracked night 3 (he claimed tracking me).  Day 4 was the perfect time to talk about it but I couldn't see anything from him. 

On a related note I wonder what would have happened if Hikaru had targeted himself. 

Also Conq already stated that he doesn't have Hated in LYLO.

Of course he said it.  Otherwise we would have to lynch him.  My question was, is hated *normally* present in LYLO?  I've never seen a hated/loved last til LYLO.  I am assuming vote modifying/lynch cancelling effects are void on LYLO, but I would rather not assume when I can ask the remaining players what they think.  It's great that you trust Conq.  I don't trust any of you even though I'm sure some of you are town because town can sometimes just be plain wrong. 

"But Bard," I hear you say. "We can verify the truth of your words!"

Pretty much this.  You believed I was vanilla town night 3 so I don't understand why you would have tracked me when you should have tracked one of the players you suspected e.g. Serela or Zak.  When players act inconsistently, I have to ask 'why'.  I want to know if the 'because' is that they are scum.  It is not unreasonable to ask. 

Bard tracked n1, n3/blocked, n5.  So I wanted to say, okay, the restriction is cannot track two nights in a row.  But when I asked if you could track night 6 you ignored or refused to answer.  Saying if you can, or cannot track IN ADVANCE on the night before LYLO actually is harmless, because scum!Bard on day 7 would say "I saw player xyz hit" or "I watched player xyz and they didn't make the hit" and town!Bard would say exactly the same thing.  Scum are never going to hit you night 6.  They are going to hit me as confirmed town and maaaaaaybe Shadoweh as psuedo-confirmed town.  Even if we (say) lynched Conq or BT today, it'll still be Bard, Shadoweh, and (one other), with Bard having a useless track result because we don't have another day phase to lynch him if he lied. 

I also don't buy the explanation that you can't crumb who you were targeting or say if you can/cannot track in advance because of restrictions, yet you can still talk openly about your actual results and talk about your role. 

Conq claimed his hated status disappears in *YLO. He'd have no reason to lie about that as town.

Town!Conq that is hated in LYLO must say he is unhated in LYLO, otherwise scum will autohammer him and it's game over.  Town!Conq that is NOT hated in LYLO would have to consider saying 'I am hated in LYLO' to invite a scum autohammer that fails, but risk being lynched day 6 for being a liability. 

I think the complaint about me "overreacting = scummy" is stupid.

I will partially repeat what BT said, but essentially I feel that you are counterattacking players who challenge you instead of scumhunting or defending properly.  You're using WIFOM and appeal to authority and those are logical fallacies, so I have to ignore it.  Example:  You say that what you are doing is not tunneling and that even if you are tunneling it's not scummy.  Your defending by attacking minor points that are based on your opinion.  It's very weak. 

Many cuts.  Hitting post and reading.  I like Shadoweh's picture. 

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

@mod: is this important?

Being killed and being eliminated from the popularity contest are equivalent from my perspective.

[BT]

I'm told I can one use the ability once per person, and with CF7 dead it's easy to tell why.

Yeah okay. For a second I had no idea where I read about the 'once per person' thing, but it's not in the PM, so I guess they asked.

CUT: Ah well.

[BT]

You believed I was vanilla town night 3 so I don't understand why you would have tracked me when you should have tracked one of the players you suspected e.g. Serela or Zak.  When players act inconsistently, I have to ask 'why'. I want to know if the 'because' is that they are scum. It is not unreasonable to ask.

Highlighting, this is a good point.

[Bardiche]

Because if I Tracked you doing shit then obviously you were Actually Lying All Along like NNR had been trying to convince me of in our Neighbour QT. He kept insisting you were Scum in spite of the claim.

[Shadoweh]

Zak said that his role was once per person. According to the wording of his PM, Zak lied.
I mean, he was trying to sound less broken so he wouldn't get lynched, so it's not surprising?

[Sky_Paladin]

Remember the reason I'm asking about this is because I am trying hard to find some way to prove you are actually a town tracker, doing towny things, why are you giving me trouble for it?  "But Bard," I hear you say. "We can verify the truth of your words!"  I'm trying to find some reasonable towny behaviour to back you up.  You're not helping. 

For example, where do you mention on day 4 that you were roleblocked?  The closest I can see is in your neighbour claim, here., when you say 'Also, Shadoweh: Unless you think Sacchi or Zakeri is a roleblocker, there's at least one lie in that list.' 

SB immediately picks up on it though and says not sure that the blocker is mafia, which in hindsight, totally gave away who did it before SB claimed. 

As far as I can see, you never actually claimed you were roleblocked night 3 until mid day 5, when SB reports that he roleblocked you.  That's way too late.  I think it's because you suspected there was a jailer because Zak really did hit me night 1, and it failed. 

You weren't sure if your action failed again night 3 because you supposedly targeted me and it would have failed n1 and n3.  You would have had no idea what to think.  Was Sky protected/jailed again?  Or were you blocked?  You couldn't come out and just say "I might have been roleblocked" because that would be admitting you targeted somebody.  But you knew there was a block or a jail in play, so you speculated about it, and SB picked up on it.  You still couldn't know if SB had jailed yourself, or I, until he said so on day 5. 

But a town tracker/neighbour would should have alerted town by saying something like, "Guys I was blocked last night, I can't post in neighbor today" or even "I have an active ability but I was blocked."  You could have crumbed it.  You could have done something.  You are a smart guy and I believe you would have gotten the information out somehow someway in a way that you could refer back to it easily today. 

But you didn't.  So I have to conclude that the reason you are sitting on information, sniping responses and coming up with nothing concrete is that you are really scum. 

[Shadoweh]

>_> When we were massclaiming Bard said that there was a roleblocker somewhere.
Because he was roleblocked.
You physically hurt me with the pain ;_;

[Sky_Paladin]

Shadoweh, I am asking Bard to show in his posts the proof that he is acting with town intent.  All I see is you defending him and Bard failing to stand up to pressure.  Where is his town intent? If he deliberately crumbed or hinted at things, it's easy for him to go back and show it.  If what I am saying is false it's easy for Bard to dismantle it.  I am saying he didn't do it and that's the reason he is scummy. 

I mean this;
I asked Bard 'why cant you tell us if you can track tonight' and 'why cant you point to evidence of you crumbing before, or your results' and I get 'cant talk about my role'.  Really?  But you can claim and talk about your neighbour role?  HOW INTERESTING. 

[Sky_Paladin]

I'll say it one more time.  Like we were a jury.  OH WAIT WE ARE.   

Did Bard act in a reasonable way on night 3/day 4?

1 - He claims to have tracked me on night 3. 
2 - He alluded to a possible roleblocker on day 4 and stated it on day 5. 

If you were Bard, what would you have done night 3?  What would you have said day 4, having been roleblocked? 

I'm saying that he tracked an unreasonable player and didn't crumb that he was roleblocked.  I also think he is being deliberately unhelpful. 

I mean Shadoweh you super disagree, so maybe you can come up with a case on somebody else that's stronger instead of just crapping on everything I do. 

[Sky_Paladin]

So on that note;

Shadoweh, how do you go from Conq is scummier than BT to let's lynch a BT.  That's your case, right?  You don't consider Bard because you believe his tracker claim.  You just feel that Conq is town because he attacked the other scum when the first scum was up for bus - an analysis I agree with. 

So at the very least if we can't agree on who is scum can we get to an agreement on who is town?  We have three to choose from and two picks, so at the very least, if we can rule one of them out, we can still get a good result at the end.