Urist Fortress Mafia - Night 3

[Raikaria]

this game got reviewed by both bbm and hw. are you seriously going to tell me to BE THE BOMB COP LIKE IN IDOLMASTER and trust CRAZY IMBA NUMBER OF KILLS

HW only reviewed the initial setup; he did not respond to my queries about the current one.  I did warn that balance cannot be assured.

[Serela]

Darkie I'm sorry but you don't understand how faction interactions work.

Yes, mafia want to kill the SK. The sk can nightkill the mafia even if there's no general suspicion on them, which would be horrible- it's like an unlimited town vig in situations where the SK doesn't need to worry about leaving maf alive. And right now, yes, it is -definitely- in the SK's best interest to nightkill mafia; the serial killer will be endgamed by the mafia if more then one remains at the end of the game, assuming the mafia doesn't catch onto them and NK/lynch them first, which the maf also always definitely want to do.

It's not good to just assume how things work when you don't know, and say things like "since you are saying this you must be sk", because no, Conq is right.

those questions are p worthless if we are srsly trying to game the setup which is sadly what we are doing.

this is also a bad assumption. In fact, this is like, the worst assumption. You should absolutely always ask the mod questions about how roles interact if it's not completely 100% clear. The worst thing they can do is say they're not going to answer, which is completely harmless. Games have been lost because people don't ask the mod questions that THE MOD ACTUALLY WOULD HAVE ANSWERED.

Raikaria ignored me ;_;

raikaria plz if you're not going to answer you can at least tell me you're not going to answer (I'm assuming he just forgot or missed the questions/pm, it's easy to miss PMs if you don't have the setting on for the forum to yell at you)

[Raikaria]

Raikaria ignored me ;_;

raikaria plz if you're not going to answer you can at least tell me you're not going to answer (I'm assuming he just forgot or missed the questions/pm, it's easy to miss PMs if you don't have the setting on for the forum to yell at you)

I answered all three questions you included in the PM to the best ability I can without breaking the setup.

[Serela]

oh I'm sorry Raikaria I completely missed that post somehow.

I'm bad at this.

[Serela]

The logical conclusion here, then, is that Darkie was roleblocked or redirected.

Okay! Moving on. (I've never consciously noticed a game on here where an active power that's roleblocked is not informed of being roleblocked, so I had assumed that wasn't even a possibility. However, since it's not the case, then yeah)

I have priorities to reassess, but I'm going to instead relax in the next two hours before I leave for work. I'll reread the game or whatever either after I get back or tomorrow morning.

[WHMZakeri]

I've been pretty uncertain about what I could offer to the discussion. I stand by the fact that I feel like Darkie is being too genuine about his role to be scum playing up the advantages of rolegames. if it was a 1v1 I'd have to pick Conqueror, but I honestly don't like that either for reasons I have yet to place.

Raikaria confirming that doctors don't get told they are blocked help solidify my first thoughts about Dark's position as town

also it occurs to me that I've been holding out on voting for a while, so ##Vote: NekoNekoRex reasoning has made no changes since last time I voted except for intensifying.

[Cheez8]

Alright, I took a shower to give myself some time to think and this is what I'm coming up with.

Even though it seems like Darkie could've been roleblocked or something, I still don't trust him. That only cleared up the role shenanigans issue- he's still claimed doc, doubled back on what he said his role can do, has nothing to show for himself actually being doc, and didn't protect the person who would have made a lot of sense to protect. I'm too suspicious of him to believe he's a real doc, and in fact I half expect him to redefine what his role can do again if he lives long enough.

While I don't trust Conq entirely, I will say this much: I think what he said about his bulletproof vest was true. I have no idea what kind of complicated plan would involve lying about that, especially since he claimed his vest was taken before Darkie mentioned who he supposedly protected. I imagine he's either a bulletproof townie or a bulletproof SK (probably the SK,) and I guess with this many potential kills a bulletproof scum would actually fit in too, but I don't get scum vibes from him so much as SK vibes. I don't really believe in myself enough to act on that though, especially since I can't figure out why I can see him so easily as a SK, so I'll leave it be.
(Also I don't really know too much about third party interactions so I don't know if I should be more or less worried about this than I am right now, but I think it's alright to leave him up to the mafia?)

As for other players, SB did kinda go along with the 1v1 idea surprisingly quickly so I'm not as confident he's town anymore, but I don't know where that leaves him for me. Oarfish strikes me as maybe town on the basis of not really resembling how I'd imagine a new player would act as scum. I still can't figure out what it is that people are gleaming from NNR's one post though and I feel like I'm missing something there.

Also, based on his most recent posts I'm pretty sure Serela is town. I don't think a mafia member would display such a vested interest in clearing up misunderstandings.

[Serela]

he's still claimed doc, doubled back on what he said his role can do, has nothing to show for himself actually being doc, and didn't protect the person who would have made a lot of sense to protect.

BS

Conq wasn't the vig, yeah, but he was far and away the best NK option for every other reason. He even ~*~actually got shot~*~!

You're also drastically overplaying the amount of "doubled back on his claim" Darkie did. The only thing he went back on was how often he's allowed to doc himself, which is understandable since docs doccing themselves is something that might deter scum from killing the doc (whether because "well he's not doccing someone else" or "well we can't kill him at least not without using a bunch of powers on him tonight" or etcetcetc, TL;DR there's some justification for such a minor lie as that)

[CF7]

Okay. I guess, Darkie's claim got cleared somewhat after Raikaria's answers. So, he's probably doc, and i'll probably go to sleep and write full analysis tomorrow morning.
And i guess i'm okay with lynching mostly absent NNR.
##Unvote
##Vote NNR

[Cheez8]

BS

Conq wasn't the vig, yeah, but he was far and away the best NK option for every other reason. He even ~*~actually got shot~*~!

Well, yeah, I guess that's partially true. I'm just bothered because to me Paladin seemed far and away the best option for the doc to protect, and he ~*~actually got shot~*~ too. I guess I'm still putting too much stock into what players' roles can contribute rather than what the players themselves can contribute but that won't stop it from bothering me.

You're also drastically overplaying the amount of "doubled back on his claim" Darkie did. The only thing he went back on was how often he's allowed to doc himself, which is understandable since docs doccing themselves is something that might deter scum from killing the doc (whether because "well he's not doccing someone else" or "well we can't kill him at least not without using a bunch of powers on him tonight" or etcetcetc, TL;DR there's some justification for such a minor lie as that)

Actually that's a good point as well. I'll admit I'm kind of reaching with that one. Just to be sure though, doubling back to "clarify" a role's limitations is still more often a scumtell, right?

I'm going to stubbornly keep believing in myself though (I hope) because suspecting scum early on and then giving them the benefit of the doubt and degenerating into a waffley mess is something that I do all too often.

[Shadoweh]

Uh, I guess Conq could be a BPV SK? I don't think he's actually been one before so I don't know how he'd treat it, but if he's bulletproof I don't see why he'd kill Sky Paladin because he'd need more kills to win? This isn't the kind of thing you go after on Day 2 when there could be another unclaimed explanation.

Basically here's what we have for the moment.
1: Conq got shot by someone and he was informed, so his own role blocked it.
2: As expected, a doctor would have protected him first.
3: Dark really really wants to lynch Conq as a serial killer, not as scum.
4: We're left with Dark claiming to have targetted Conq, who was targetted by a kill, and who Dark doesn't think is scum with a red but really wants to lynch.

There are other explanations, but I find it highly likely that Dark just didn't want to claim someone he didn't target and tried to kill Conq last night.

[O4rfish]

It's possible that Sky got redirected or something, but it seems like a weird kill for him to make. SK could make sense too, but given the numbers it seems sort of uncomfortable? Especially when it could result in 3 kills in a single night.

Really starting to worry about DNA now due to his end of phase conduct yesterday, the hammer seemed out of nowhere when Dormio still could've shown up and the fact that a Cop/Vig flipped and the doc is apparently able to self protect makes me worry.

I apologize in advance for these words which may sound like insults.
This post seems kind of scummy. DNA hadn't posted yet today, and SB is simultaneously blaming him for Sky's death and acknowledgeing his ability to self-protect. If I had roleblocked DNA and killed Sky, I might have wanted to blame DNA and possibly get him lynched, but casting doubt on him by lessening the validity of the blame seems a mistake. Possibly a scumtell.

[Serela]

Shadoweh:At this point it's become mod-spoken that Darkie wouldn't know if he was redirected or roleblocked, and Darkie had claimed doc beforehand. He very totally could have just been stopped, so now that everything's settled, those shenanigans are null. (He also totally could have tried to kill Conq, but, we have no real evidence either way, so)

[Shadoweh]

He could have, but his target doesn't make sense, and neither does the enthusiasm he's trying to get the person he thought was so townie he protected him yesterday? I don't know about you but I protect people I think are so town I want them to live over me.

[Serela]

Good point, now that darkie knows he very well may have been rb'd or redirected (Which is definitely more then likely since he claimed doc, that this happened) I'm curious to know about the reasoning he has for continuing to vote Conq, since as far as I can tell there is none anymore.

I also assume SB is getting off Conq upon review of the current state of events.

If NNR gets modkilled that means that almost every vote in the game will have to move! Oh boy.

[NekoNekoRex]

>Day 2 starts at 5 AM
>Wake up 2 PM because getting decent sleep around here is hard
>already 5 new pages on top of the 10 pages I was too busy to get to last time

thanks England

Might replace out after all

[Cheez8]

...Now that you mention it, it is kind of weird how Darkie managed to make the transition from "protecting Conq over the unlimited vig since he is the towniest player and I trust him that much" to "Conq is definitely the SK and needs to be lynched today". Lemme see if I can find where that transition happened...

Well, here's the post of Darkie's where he first entertains the idea of Conq being SK, and even though it makes absolutely no sense to me (SK Conq kills the player who displays the absolute most complete and unflinching trust in his innocence and reliability what) there's apparently something in it that made Darkie go from not suspecting Conq whatsoever in his previous post to becoming fully convinced in his following post, and all of his posts afterward.

Cut by oh hey NNR is back! Hang in there, buddy. You've got a lot to make sense of.

[O4rfish]

>Day 2 starts at 5 AM
>Wake up 2 PM because getting decent sleep around here is hard
>already 5 new pages on top of the 10 pages I was too busy to get to last time

thanks England

Might replace out after all

Modkilled for violating post restriction. amidoingitrite

[SB]

So look at this post and his Serela opinion. This is about a page later, and he hadn't posted in between, but suddenly he thinks Serela is "too scummy for day 1" and that's about all the reasoning he gives. The post also shows how he flip flopped on his Sky read. This one looks like a subtle push for a D1 lurker lynch which is sort of stupid. This post paints Sky as scum for just stating something about another site as a scumslip, when really it means nothing at all? He even says that he would vote him over the thing. Towards the end of the day too he seemed to be around, but was sort of lurking through it with short posts that don't really add much to the discussion at all besides votes and "we could lynch x".

Here CF7 jumps on DNA using the hammer point parroted from me/Conq in our earlier posts and aside from that he just says "general posts", and a weird post saying that Conq/DNA might be scumbuddies. This post honestly just looks like a lazy excuse to get out of his DNA push when he was never confirmed to be doc in the first place, just that the 1v1 might not be valid (although it still might exist), and the NNR vote just looks like he's joining the bandwagon with no effort required, he doesn't even say why NNR is scummy.

tl;dr cf7 has been pretty inconsistant and has spent a lot of time active lurking and has barely contributed anything to the game. Still happy with lynching NNR but if he's not here we're not getting any answers.

##Unvote
##Vote: CF7

[Serela]

What I get for being lazy is stuff like SB beating me to the punch on CF7, since he was my first planned reread. Oh well, he probably did it better then I would have anyway :3

Time to get ready for work, see you all later~

[SB]

Still sort of entertaining scum!Conq (for some reason one of his posts reminded me of scum!Prims, but idr which and why) but I was townreading him D1 so I have no idea. I suppose I should reread him at some point.

DNA is probably legit because of How Many Kills Are There In This Game?

Time to look at all the stuff that cut me in that last post I guess?

[O4rfish]

I suppose SB makes a good point about CF7 acting scummy, which would strongly indicate DNA town. Also DNA is not SK. I want a certain person to roleclaim, but I will out them if they do not. My beard tells me they are the SK.

[Raikaria]

Dorian replaces NNR; effective immediately

[NNR opted out before the deadline]

[SB]

Shadoweh, I used my dwarf skills and saw something involving Conq. I want him to give more details before I make a full engraving.

If it's on Conq, he already claimed...

[Cheez8]

...Hmm. SB, you're mostly right about CF7 (though there's at least one point which I'm pretty sure you just misunderstood) but there's something I'm wondering about first.

DNA is probably legit because of How Many Kills Are There In This Game?

What does the large number of kills have to do with Darkie being honest or innocent? I don't really follow.

I might have to consider CF7 after Darkie now. It hadn't occurred to me, but I guess CF7's posts have been rather inconsistent for as much as he's been cruising by.

[SB]

There's been no CC and there are AT LEAST 4 killing roles. Something has to stop them.

[SB]

I apologize in advance for these words which may sound like insults.
This post seems kind of scummy. DNA hadn't posted yet today, and SB is simultaneously blaming him for Sky's death and acknowledgeing his ability to self-protect. If I had roleblocked DNA and killed Sky, I might have wanted to blame DNA and possibly get him lynched, but casting doubt on him by lessening the validity of the blame seems a mistake. Possibly a scumtell.

It was less about Sky dying and more "wow these are some pretty strong roles flipping" and the fact that self protecting doc is really strong. It's like an infinite shot BPV with flexibility, which is why mods don't usually allow it. I'm not really sure how this is a scumtell, considering that town could find these things suspicious too and then would want to push for a suspicious player's lynch.

[Cheez8]

There's been no CC and there are AT LEAST 4 killing roles. Something has to stop them.

Well, yeah, I can't imagine that there's not a doctor. At the same time though, since there are at least four killing roles, would it be unreasonable to assume that there's a second doctor, or at least a second protective role of some fashion? Regardless of whether Darkie's telling the truth, if somebody other than Darkie is a doctor, I don't think it would be too far-fetched for that person to look at all of the killing roles at the start of Day 2 and hold off on a counterclaim.

[SB]

It's possible for there to be a jack or something with a doc shot maybe but I dunno. I doubt there would be an exact duplicate role in the setup.

[Cheez8]

Also in a game with four killing roles I can see a doc deciding it would be prudent not to claim unless absolutely necessary so that they can remain useful for longer.

I don't think there'd be a duplicate role either, really.