Justice Juice Mafia Thread I (NIGHT 3)

[Mitsuki]

If we also assume Polaris is town, that leaves four.

I really don't get why we should assume Polaris is town. Anyways.


Polaris

I might have just been self conscious about sheeping Kilga too much.

Associative reads with Kilga, go. It's not strong, definitely, but scumbuddies would be alert about not shipping their scumbuddies too much. It'd be a problem if their scumbuddy was lynched, and it was D1 so nothing was set yet, not even Kilga's ?towniness?.

Another example of this is how Polaris inmediately changes his vote to Validon D2 after Kilga's post, but then he voteparks for two irl days while saying things about Shadoweh. It'd have been too noticeable that he was just following Kilga's vote.

@Validon: Ok but you better know that we're going to lynch you if you don't start scumhunting at some point 

This plainly looks like a post taken straight from the scum QT. I mean, nobody would tell someone else that they're going to lynch them due to a lack of scumhunting if the time comes they place their vote and that's all. Validon's lack of an answer to this is actually scummy too, overall his attitude this game has been not Validon-ish at all. But I already talked about Validon before.

This is all not that strong, I know. As I said Polaris is the person who I was less certain of being scum. Not anymore, though:

but like mitsuki are you scum?

because like I seriously don't know how you can just waltz in with scumreads the two people generally accepted as town (kilga and me, sorry for being a pretentious) while simultaneously refusing to consider any of the existing wagons, and adamantly at that. your credibility is decreased because it seems like you haven't really looked at the game properly, which makes me wonder if you're even serious about these cases or if you just made them up because you're trying to look SO HIP and PRO TOWN by challenging a widely held belief.

I'm not going to point out Polaris' contradiction on his opinion on me again. Let's ask a question instead: why does Polaris think that my posts are bad?

- He says that scumreading people generally accepted as town is bad
Why? Is the dynamics of a group that has already mislynched twice an example of what I should believe?

- He says I'm refusing to consider the existing wagons
I said so myself and I explained why. My scumreads were too clear to consider lynching someone else.

- He says that I'm not credible enough because it seemed like I hadn't looked at the game properly and that I made up my cases because of that
I had looked at the game properly, but why should I remember everything? It's just generalizing to say that I didn't read the game properly just because of that.
Anyways, how can he go from ?not reading properly? to ?having made up the cases?? I don't get how one thing can be derived from the other, specially when my cases are so damn long and complete.

- He says I'm trying to look hip and pro town
People who are already hip and pro town don't need to try to look hip and pro town (?wu) Ok, now seriously. Why should his perception of my identity affect how good/bad my cases are?

^ basically my first impressions of mitsuki. not a fan of nitpicky quotestrippy cases either `_`

- He says that he's not a fan of my cases
How is liking a kind of case related to its quality? (And if it comes to this, all I have to say is that I'm not a fan of wrong cases)

It's ok that Mitsuki has unique and interesting opinions but I'm unhappy with her staunch refusal to care about anyone else, which seems unnecessarily stubborn and could border on tunneling. And her cases do give off the impression of tunnel vision and confirmation bias, seeing as her cases are really quotestrippy and it looks like she was selectively reading all the "bad" parts to make a case without looking at a coherent whole, and when it looks like she hasn't read the game properly, it makes it worse. It's how she handled her opinions that are worse than her actual opinions, more than anything.

The part about it being okay to have unique views is a contradiction by itself because he said that it was wrong for me to doubt common townreads. But I'll keep analyzing like before:

- He says that I don't care about anything else and that means I'm tunelling
It's not possible to say from my posts that I don't care about anything else because in fact not wanting to vote townies (who were null reads, but I considered them townies because of my reverse PoE where I guess who the townies are because I have strong opinions on who the scum are) is caring about what happens. Anyways, having 3 scumreads is not tunelling as far as I know, and you can't really say that I haven't considered anybody else based on my posts.

- My cases give the impression of confirmation bias, tunnel vision, are quotestrippy, selectively reading the bad parts without having in mind a ?coherent whole?...
There are literally no cited reasons on why he thinks all of that from my cases. If I wanted to, I could say ?hey guys, X is a bitch, sews poorly and she copies all my cosplays!!!?, but if I don't provide evidence it's worth nothing.
Also, quotestrippy cases are the best.

Well I have to undermine her because her cases are dumb.

- He says that the reason he's attacking me is because my cases are dumb
Why should the quality of my cases, when I hadn't already made a case on Polaris, be a matter of concern for him?
Hold on that sentence.


Let's analyze what we have so far: the reasons given to say that my cases aren't valid are that 1- I haven't read properly, the style of my cases is bad, etc / 2- tunnel vision, other biases / 3- My identity is bad

So well, what does this say about how my cases are? Nothing. You could say all of this about anybody else (obviously changing some parts, like ?quotestrippy? to ?quoteless?), it'd contain no actual replies to the cases and it'd make it look like they're terrible.
It made my cases look like shit without actually saying anything about my thoughts.

I checked to see if this was something that Polaris did just to me or if it's something that he's done to more people. Polaris replied to the other cases properly, Polaris-style. I'm not saying that he did perfect, but he certainly had valid (maybe right, maybe wrong) points.
Why did he bother to write all of that, why did he feel the need to do so, if it had very little to do with him? Because I must have been right, at least with one of the two cases, and he suddenly feared losing.

But no, I'm not saying that he did all of this consciously. He clearly wanted my cases to look bad, but he genuinely thought they were bad and that the reasons he gave stood. Scum wouldn't agree just like that about what it's been said about them, it's just a matter of pride. And what do people with hurt pride do, like a girl who fears her friend will get the boy she loves? They baselessy critisize the one who threatens them.

##Unvote
##Vote: Polaris

Now I think he has more chances to be scum than Validon, the same than Kilga but I'm willling to ignore him for now due to NNR's role.

Actually there are a few things left to say/analyze, but I'm running out of time. I'll think about them later, but this is the most important part!

[NekoNekoRex]

So you're not sure about the catgirls after all. \(owo)/

I'm not sure if the results I get from my role can be messed with, although I'd like to think not. I'm about 95% confident my results are accurate.

[NekoNekoRex]

I'm 100% sure what I've announced so far is accurate as far as the information I have, though.

[NekoNekoRex]

I'll have some more comprehensive reading done again in an hour or so,  have to get busy with stuff

[Kilgamayan]

Still limited time, still not in a position to respond to things in-depth. However I want to do our dearly departed Shadowert a solid and put this out now, since it was a background part of my decision of Cheez being scum.

Mitsuki, when you next get the chance, I'd like you to construct one of Shadowy's patented Color-Coded Vote Counts using the Day 2 End vote count. Mark all flipped townies as green, and for the sake of entertaining this hypothetical, mark myself and NNR green as well. Post that vote count and tell me what you see, particularly in how it relates to your scum reads.

[Kilgamayan]

(Anyone else is welcome to construct this vote count if they want to see it in action, though they'll need to mark Mitsuki green as well.)

[Kilgamayan]

Or I guess you yardtards could just wait 45 minutes for me to get home and do it myself. >_>

I've been doing a lot of thinking about this in the car. The way the end of Day 2 went down needs to be looked over heavily in light of my dwellings on the color-coded vote count. It's pushing me further and further toward Cheez, at least, and makes me want to hear from Mitsuki on the matter a lot harder.

[Validon98]

*got waylaid by work for most of the day*
*looks at the thread*
*sees many massive walls of text*

...Yeah, I'm going to have to spend some time to catch up. I glanced some of the stuff over and I know accusations are flying everywhere, but I'm going to have to read stuff in more detail. For now I'll be the first to construct the vote count as per Kilga's request. I might make another one after I do some ISOs with my own opinions.


Shadoweh (6): Sky_Paladin, Validon98, Polaris, NekoNekoRex, Darkninjaabc, Dormio
Kilgamayan (3): Mitsuki, Shadoweh, Cheez8
NekoNekoRex (1): SB

Not Voting (1): Kilgamayan

...So that's the reason, huh. Yeah, you're like the towniest person in the game, and Cheez voting you at the end of the day makes me go urgh. Sky was another person who made me go urgh, so I'll be ISOing the two of them over the next while. I'm not sure at the moment who of the two of them is the scummiest, but I'll decide that once I'm done.

[DNAbc]

The thing is that sans kilga and nnr i have no scumreads.

This is also exactly why i think kilga called for n.okill. Anyone dying now really is good

I have to say it again but i dont care about scums opinion and weird push. I just dont see scumdormio behaviorwise and i dont trust nnr.

I cant form anything. I literally hss only one hour to read everything. Post to fufill the wordcount and that shit.i doubt i will actually help aside from sheeping at last moment.

I am even just aticking aro und clinging desperately because how ahitty it feels to surrender

I am not the core piece of any of these puzzles. Mitsuki and cheez are howevet.

Scum is denying us every flipinfo and rely on their skills alone. Isnt it then obvious at least one scun would act superprotown? Eithet they have aome other way to secure a sure win this day, which is very likelt. And nothing else isvpossible.

There arw just too goddamn many variables which is bull.

[Kilgamayan]

Validon: Highlight Shadowy and Mitsuki as green as well.

[Kilgamayan]

Oh wait you did that.

Highlight the names of the people being votes for extra emphasis.

[Kilgamayan]

*people being voted

phoooooooooneposting

[Polaris]

For now, but Polaris was so scummy yesterday and he clearly contradicted himself just now, as I've just pointed out.

uh did you even read? I said that "I was critical of you but I don't think you're exactly scum". if you look carefully the only place I actually use the word "scum" is at the very beginning, because your cases were just dumb, but I never expressed a desire to lynch you. I attacked you because I know your scum reads are 100% wrong (at least, the one on me) and you needed to realize that your "totally clear" scum reads weren't clear at all. Which is why I clarified that I didn't think you were scum at the beginning of the day.

[Validon98]

There's no highlighting option, so I just threw all of the emphasizing things I could on it. :V

Shadoweh (6): Sky_Paladin, Validon98, Polaris, NekoNekoRex, Darkninjaabc, Dormio
Kilgamayan (3): Mitsuki, Shadoweh, Cheez8
NekoNekoRex (1): SB

Not Voting (1): Kilgamayan

Like this?

[Polaris]

honestly I just think Mitsuki is being pretentious right now, because her confirmation bias is intense to the point of no return. the only thing I can think of that'll make her change her mind is going to be my flip, and I'm not going to let that happen, so whatever. her entire case on me is useless since she misinterpreted my attacking of her cases to be me thinking that she was scum, so I'd rather see what sort of case she had in mind before all that happened.

[Polaris]

My main motivation for voting Cheez was his strange jump off of Serela at the end of Day 1, and a similar jump off of Shadoweh at the end of Day 2, both with little-to-no reasoning for lynching, and it felt like he was trying to avoid being on the lynch for someone who would eventually flip town (because he had that prior knowledge as scum).

[Polaris]

honestly I'm more annoyed at Mitsuki for saying my opinion of her was a "clear contradiction" because that seems like an insult to my intelligence more than anything.

[Validon98]

All things considered with the votecount, I'm going to look at Cheez first. This is going to take a while. <_>;

[Mitsuki]

uh did you even read? I said that "I was critical of you but I don't think you're exactly scum". if you look carefully the only place I actually use the word "scum" is at the very beginning, because your cases were just dumb, but I never expressed a desire to lynch you. I attacked you because I know your scum reads are 100% wrong (at least, the one on me) and you needed to realize that your "totally clear" scum reads weren't clear at all. Which is why I clarified that I didn't think you were scum at the beginning of the day.

As far as I know people don't go "are you scum?"  to people you think that are town. You don't, either:

but like mitsuki are you scum?

cheez are you scum

(D1, Polaris already suspected Cheez)

Polaris, it'd actually be nice if you stopped doing the things that I accuse you of in my case and actually replied properly. There's no way my entire case goes down like that even if that point was wrong, and you're not pointing out why either.
The case I had on mind before is in the post and I think it's cleary noticeable, the first part of the post is separated from the second by a "not anymore"... did you even read it? (o__o)


Kilga, that hypotetical situation makes no sense in my head. Anyways, explain yourself.
I guess I'd be suspecting Polaris and Validon anyways if you were town, which is what I'm pushing now. I don't know who the 3rd scum would be.

[Polaris]

if you look a little later, you can see that I go "i'm facetiously suspecting cheez" hmm what could that mean oh IT WAS A JOKE

[Polaris]

Look Mitsuki, the only thing your "case" on me proves is that I hate your cases. And that is true. I think your cases legitimately suck. But the only reasoning you have on why I could be scum for that is... let's see..

But no, I'm not saying that he did all of this consciously. He clearly wanted my cases to look bad, but he genuinely thought they were bad and that the reasons he gave stood. Scum wouldn't agree just like that about what it's been said about them, it's just a matter of pride. And what do people with hurt pride do, like a girl who fears her friend will get the boy she loves? They baselessy critisize the one who threatens them.

and this is just a completely unsupported hypothetical, which ignores the fact that town also has pride that can be hurt, skipping directly to HE MUST BE SCUM SO HE DID THIS (which is confirmation bias)

[Kilgamayan]

Mitsuki: The hypothetical is assuming NNR's report about us is true. <_< This is largely the point of this exercise.

Shadoweh (6): Sky_Paladin, Validon98, Polaris, NekoNekoRex, Darkninjaabc, Dormio
Kilgamayan (3): Mitsuki, Shadoweh, Cheez8
NekoNekoRex (1): SB

Not Voting (1): Kilgamayan

This is how things look from your perspective (assuming you're town etc etc etc). Pick out possible scum teams from this based on how the End of Day 2 went down, and reason out why they're possible.

[Polaris]

and if you're going to waltz in here and stomp all over me and other town reads with Bad? cases, then of course I'm going to look down on you, especially when you say that you refuse to look at other people because you  have "100% scum reads!" when I know that those scum reads are 100% wrong (at least in my case).

[Polaris]

and honestly if your pre-mitsuki case on me were two quotes which could be scummy while totally ignoring everything else like a genuine attempt at scumhunting and responding properly to other cases with valid points (which you yourself acknowledge) then I'm going to call that a case of tunnel vision. The same goes for your case on Kilga.

[Polaris]

Darkninja: (used larger font so that he doesn't miss it in the midst of my mitsuki-fueled rage): did you get a result from your role last night or no?

[Mitsuki]

Kilga, as I've said, I'd still be suspecting Polaris and Validon, because of the reasons I stated. Forget about the associative reads with you, and I still think my cases on them + associative reads stand, even if they lose a bit of strenght.

and this is just a completely unsupported hypothetical, which ignores the fact that town also has pride that can be hurt, skipping directly to HE MUST BE SCUM SO HE DID THIS (which is confirmation bias)

What pride would have been hurt with my cases if you were town?


Anyways, I'm stopping answering to Polaris, this is going nowhere as long as he keeps that attitude. If someone thinks he brings up a valid point, tell me and I'll answer to you.

[Kilgamayan]

Okay, let's say Validon and Polaris are scumbuddies. Who's their partner?

[Mitsuki]

Shadoweh (6): Sky_Paladin, Validon98, Polaris, NekoNekoRex, Darkninjaabc, Dormio
Kilgamayan (3): Mitsuki, Shadoweh, Cheez8
NekoNekoRex (1): SB

Not Voting (1): Kilgamayan

By the way, I'm colouring Paladin green too since I'm townreading him and I doubt that'll change.


Kilga, I have no idea. One of the non-coloured names now is the only thing I can guess. Sorry.

[Polaris]

What pride would have been hurt with my cases if you were town?

my town pride

[Polaris]

^ honestly i don't even know how that was a question, like only scum can have pride?? what?