Adorable Game of Mafia (Everyone wins!)

[Omba]

Clouded jugdement tells me much more about the alignment of the player in question than a calmly composed post ever could.
Quite contrary to what you're saying, playing nice makes it easier for scum to hide and harder to get reads on people. It also eliminates a lot of possible plays from the game. The simpler the game, the easier it is for scum to blend in.
As a side note, ever since Edible told us to play nicely I've been composing my posts as neutrally as possible without cutting out intended meaning. But I'm not about to start lying as town outside of :gambits:.

Serela: Why did you think my point about his disconnect was silly? Verbose explanation, please.

Raitaki, you did say you were reading the D1 of previous games specifically, though. Did you change your mind?

[Raitaki]

I never said that I ever finished staring at the first one moved on to the next. So yeah atm I'm still on the previous round. I think instead of reading through multiple D1's I'd just go ahead and analyze the entirety of the previous round, since there's only about a third of D1 left, and I'm going to have to sleep through about 10 hours of it.

I did change my vote, as I no longer consider being new as a possible explanation for Serela's motives and stance. As for changing my mind, I now think Serela is an even more likely scum candidate than before, but your position stays the same. I'm assuming that's what you meant by changing my mind.

One side remark though, you seem quite interested in whether or not I move my vote, even though it used to be both tentative and an OMGUS. Any particular reason? ;o

[Kilgamayan]

> Clouded judgment and illogical thinking are good for town
> People not caring is good for town

Sounds like the time Scum Serpentarius told us all to ignore scumflips when scumhunting.

[Omba]

Kilga: We both know very well what we're arguing about here, so let's drop this. Because it hasn't told me anything about your alignment and I foresee it won't even if we continue.
If you want to do policy lynches to enforce a particular style of play, feel free to try. You know exactly where I stand on this, I'm not going to regurgitate all the arguments that have been made about this.

Raitaki: Changing your mind referred to changing your mind about only reading the D1 of previous games - the impression I got was that you'd read over them rather quickly to specifically see how D1 is generally handled here.
Yes, I'm interested in when/how/why you change your vote. What you do with your vote is the one thing that tells the most about your alignment in the end. Still wondering why you didn't quickly check whether Serela was a new player or not if it evidently was a big factor in deciding whom you were you going to vote.

[Affinity]

Affinity: I'll give you a few hours to find the flaws in your case on me and produce a better one.

@Omba: That's pithy and smug talk, and decidedly anti-town.  Give it to me straight so that we can discuss it or something without dragging out things for half a day.

Rai has given his 'worst case' and analysis on the IHNN bandwagon and related stuff, based on false premises.  Your case about him 'not scumhunting' is really no longer valid and seemingly outdated.  Your previous questioning (prompted by his mistake on Serela rather than anything he's putting forward), sounds like you are shifting the goalposts on Rai, really.

@Serela: Why is IHNN's late vote on Rai scummy when he could have done so much earlier and more naturally early D1?  There were abundant reasons to 'appear strong'.

Affinity:See above. It may have been strong ed1, but the way he came back to it looks like he's falling back on the only vote he can justify due to his BT case falling through.

@Serela:  You are not answering my question at all, you're just repeating what you said in the first place...   Well, I don't get your Rai/IHNN dichotomy at all.  If you are clearing the earlier for being new, why not the latter too for being relatively new as well?  Townies do fall back on votes they can justify on occasion when their case falls through. 

[NekoNekoRex]

@mod: Are you actually doing word counts on these posts, because I've seen a few that are definitely breaking the limit
#152 (Serela)
#159  (Shadoweh)
#169 (Raitaki)
(Word Counts done through Google Docs)

[edible]I have been, yes (though mostly eyeballing; I wordcount when it looks close).  Keep in mind that text in quotes does not count.[/edible]

[Raitaki]

Huh. Pretty sure I copied pasted the whole post raw into Word and it said 349 words. And unless I'm off by 100 words the PR is 350 words right?

[NekoNekoRex]

Might be google docs shenanigans, then, if you're counting. Same would go for Shadoweh.
 I know for a fact Serela's post is some 400+ words.

Anyways reading through these walls is tough business, I thought some of the walls might have been cutting a little too big :V

Still reading this stuff.

[PX]

Little rushed right now. G2g soon so Koromo will post another later tonight.

NNR, don't like for his votepark on Raitaki for half of D1, on top of the reasons why he stayed on him look more like observation and waffling.

Affinity, who is scum and why. And on top of that, WHAT ARE YOUR OPINIONS ON RAITAKI??? You say he's polarizing, but haven't said a word on what you think of him.

Rai actually scumhunting looks better.

IHNN, Komoro will throw him to the side for now. Like to see more interaction from him and Pesco to get a better read on him. And there's other things Koromo would like to press.

Serela, the cases on him do make sense, but Koromo don't see him as scum. Koromo can provide a defense later on, but not now.

Omba, will have to read later to get a conclusion.

##Unvote
Vote: NekoNekoRex

[Affinity]

@PX: Omba, and perhaps BT.  And I already said why. 

I think of Rai as newbtown putting in effort.  I notice that he's prone to going with the flow lately, but how significant that is remains to be seem.  Same goes with IHNN, really.

[Omba]

Affinity: Ok then, here you go.

I agree with Kilga on Omba, actually.  Omba's posts are mostly about staying on Rai, while going on side-tangents with other people through questioning which have not shown their real use.

Okay, fine, not Nameless but Rai.  Pardon the rhetoric.  Compared to people like pesco and huhwhat you seem more kosher about leaving your vote there without questioning him, waiting for him to magically sprout 'good content'.  Why is this so?

Raitaki did not post much I could inquire or press him about - the amount of questions I directed at him corresponds to that. If the biggest reason for voting someone is "does not scumhunt", there simply aren't that many things to ask about that would tell me anything more about his alignment. This should be plainly obvious.
As for the things I asked other people - you call them side-tangents. Instead of, say, trying to get something out of other people that I can use to read them. Whenever I saw something I could poke at, I did so. Re-reading my posts now should show you as much.
Now tell me how either of this is scummy. There's also still this, you conceding that point notwithstanding.

Lastly, about Raitaki now scumhunting: Where. What he had said about Serela is little more than a repeat of what other people said about him + some waffling in the post where he voted me, which he later conceded once I pointed out to him that Serela was not actually a new player, which he could easily have checked himself if he was already reading in the archives and really as hard-pressed to decide on who he thinks is scum as his posts appear to say.
The same goes for the reasoning for his vote on me, the only part I'm not completely sure hasn't been said before is the "he was an easy lynch at that point" thing. Which is... yeah.
The statements about IHNN are pretty waffly, but I think there might be some original thought in there - but if there is, none of it translates into any reads.
So no, still doesn't cut it as actual scumhunting.
To be sure, if he wasn't there I'd be voting Serela, but he is, so I'm not.

--cut cut

[NekoNekoRex]

Finally, not seeing the Omba case as is. Seconding Pesco that more back-and-forth between him/Kilga would be nice. Rex, explain this "pattern" that makes Omba look scummy? Given the talk of policy lynches pregame those posts were pretty much what I expected to pop up from at least one person regardless of alignment.

It was the policy lynch talk. He seemed real bent on it, especially when he kept pinning random players as "policy lynchable". It's not my main reason, but it is one.

Kilga's 179 sums up my reasons handily.

Posts like Omba's 157 are overly combative an jump on every little thing to make a big deal out of it. Stuff like this:

Serela's posts show exactly what I meant with the waffling yet to come.

is setting people up for failure so he can jump on it.

Raitaki is improving his play from "completely worthless" to "making decent effort to scumhunt" which at least shows some town intent. His posts look like a struggling newb instead of totalnewbtown and I find it argh that I can't change my read on him without people endlessly questioning it.

Also don't like needless antagonistic attitude in #131

Looking back I noticed he isn't actually trying to justify his own post rather then defend PX, so is it okay if I take that statement I made earlier about it back? I was more annoyed with the blatant lack of :words: then anything else.

Spoiler:

inb4 appeasment

[Raitaki]

If Omba feels the need to press the point that I didn't take the effort to check the archives to see if Serela was new or not, I'm going to say as I typed the post I was reading up all the posts people made to justify their votes as well as what the victim posted to possibly deserve the vote while keeping track of votes while trying to rate the posters, all at the same time. This repeated shift in the object of my attention made it really hard to focus on anything at all, so I forgot to consider checking the archives. Also I wasn't hard-pressed to determine whether Serela was a likely scum at the moment, as I literally still had a whole day to think about it and by that point I've already narrowed my sight to the two of you.

As for your questioning of people, while admittedly I was barely posting and gave anyone little to work with, your questions to other players didn't yield any significant results either, except for the ones you made as replies to people complaining about you. Actually, if I just read all your questions without knowing the context, it'd sound like you're only asking people to elaborate their points.

[Omba]

he kept pinning random players as "policy lynchable".

Unless my memory is completely borked, I named exactly two players as policy lynches - Raitaki and Serela. Now tell me how this is random.

Stuff like this:[...]is setting people up for failure so he can jump on it.

"Serela is going to waffle" is a statement with a very high chance of being true. What about this tells you that I'm scum?

Raitaki is improving his play from "completely worthless" to "making decent effort to scumhunt" which at least shows some town intent. His posts look like a struggling newb instead of totalnewbtown and I find it argh that I can't change my read on him without people endlessly questioning it.

Twitch

--cut No, actually they did. A significant part of them went nowhere and some of the results I got aren't noted in my posts. Nevertheless, you'll find that some of them did yield something - and that was the whole purpose of asking.  Doesn't matter if part of the questions ends up being useless as long as part of them nets something useful.

[Edible]

Vote Count: DAIJI NA MEMORY edition

Serela (4): NekoNekoRex, Shadoweh, IHNN, Raitaki
Raitaki (3): huh what, Omba, Pesco
IHNN (2): BT, Serela
Omba (2): Kilgamayan, Affinity
NekoNekoRex (1): PX

Not voting: Nobody!

You have ~21 hours remaining.  With 12 in play, it takes 7 votes to launch.

[NekoNekoRex]

"Serela is going to waffle" is a statement with a very high chance of being true. What about this tells you that I'm scum?

It means you're using meta as a reason to make her look bad before he even uses said meta. You're lining it up.

Poor defense only makes you look worse, and you're cherry picking my arguments while hoping nobody notices my primary reason for suspecting you is your aggressive and disrespectiful play.

--cut No, actually they did. A significant part of them went nowhere and some of the results I got aren't noted in my posts. Nevertheless, you'll find that some of them did yield something - and that was the whole purpose of asking.  Doesn't matter if part of the questions ends up being useless as long as part of them nets something useful.

So basically you're shooting until something sticks? Isn't that a scumtell?

Very tempted to switch off Serela right now. Both players look very poor in terms of reads for me.

[Omba]

It means you're using meta as a reason to make her look bad before he even uses said meta. You're lining it up.

Why yes, I was expecting Serela would waffle and that I'd probably still want to vote him once he starts the waffles, after he already made an abject refusal to participate in ED1. Still doesn't tell me why you think that's scummy.

Poor defense only makes you look worse, and you're cherry picking my arguments while hoping nobody notices my primary reason for suspecting you is your aggressive and disrespectiful play.

I find it hard to keep this up, but... let me get this straight. You got modkilled for not playing nice last game, you also got called out for the same this game. Last game you were town. And you're now suspecting me because... I'm not nice? Disconnect if I ever saw one.
And hey, I just did a quick re-read - you know where you picked up the "is overly combative" point? In your #191, long after Kilga started going down that road and also long after your first major voicing of suspicion regarding me in your #151. Where I don't see a single word about me being aggressive as a scumtell. Uh...
Yes, that FoS on you was completely justified. Needs rope.

So basically you're shooting until something sticks? Isn't that a scumtell?

It's a scumtell if you're either flinging -accusations- or painting responses as scummy that actually aren't. Show me where I did either.

[Affinity]

Yeah what the hell NNR.

@Omba: You are not taking the effort to differentiate newbtown and newbscum, both of which might conceivably not be able to 'scumhunt correctly'.  For example, this shows scumhunting intent and logic being used, and despite it not being 'correct', it warrants some investigation which you did not go into.

Rai's choice to think of IHNN as town and Serela and you as scum is already a decision that people will read him by on future days, which constitutes as some form of scumhunting despite it not being solid or anything.

I find it hard to believe that you would be blind to all of the above.  You deciding to question Rai solely on his mistake in assuming Serela as new and not his failings at scumhunting (which you posted much later, not directed at him) already tell me that your priorities are not straight.  Same goes for your questioning on others and not your primary scumreads.

[NekoNekoRex]

Why yes, I was expecting Serela would waffle and that I'd probably still want to vote him once he starts the waffles, after he already made an abject refusal to participate in ED1. Still doesn't tell me why you think that's scummy.

Because you're trying to paint him as scummy without him actually doing anything.

I find it hard to keep this up, but... let me get this straight. You got modkilled for not playing nice last game, you also got called out for the same this game. Last game you were town. And you're now suspecting me because... I'm not nice? Disconnect if I ever saw one.

Hold up there cowboy, don't try to go down that road invalidating my points because I got modkilled last game. Antagonizing a player =/= combative and disrespectful.

And hey, I just did a quick re-read - you know where you picked up the "is overly combative" point? In your #191, long after Kilga started going down that road and also long after your first major voicing of suspicion regarding me in your #151. Where I don't see a single word about me being aggressive as a scumtell. Uh...

Let me sum it up in more simple terms
The tone of  your posts is very negative and reactionary, which is scummy, therefore I think you are scum.

Show me where I did either.

#157

--cut

Yeah what the hell NNR.

[Omba]

You are not taking the effort to differentiate newbtown and newbscum

That's actually precisely it. I'm completely foregoing any sort of clears for D1, be it meta, newbie or anything else. I said as much pre-game and I'm following through on it. If it reads as scum unless I say it's not because the player is ___, then it -is- scum.
I suppose I'll have to concede that I did not question him about every point I could have.

--cut by Neko
That doesn't even warrant a response.
Oh, except one. Which parts of #157 qualifies as being scummy? Tell me straight out.

[Raitaki]

It strikes me as interesting that you immediately asked me if I read the archives after seeing the disconnection in my long post, but you never bothered to try to ask me about my skill level at mafia, which I never claimed to be high, then using the fact that I quoted 2 mafia games I participated in to at least twice say that I'm not new to Mafia games and should engage in scumhunt (which you didn't do a really good job at either, especially at that), what with my pregame stunt and all.

[NekoNekoRex]

Raitaki: Considering you're not a new mafia player, I'm hard pressed to believe you're completely unable to do any scumhunting. Promises to do it at some later point do not cut it. Among other things, you're currently getting voted for not contributing anything useful. Even the worst case you can make is better than none at all. I will not listen to your excuses.

Discouraging, unhelpful, contributes little other then to say "you're bad, try harder"

Affinity: I'll give you a few hours to find the flaws in your case on me and produce a better one. As it stands, I'm inclined to believe you wanted to follow Kilga's vote on me and needed to find any sort of original reasoning to justify your own vote so you don't look like you're just sheeping him.

Passive-agressive, basically says "you're bad but it's up to you to figure out why"

Serela's posts show exactly what I meant with the waffling yet to come.

I already went over this

--cut by Neko
That doesn't even warrant a response.

Out of ammo or are you trying to pick a fight?
Just because I have a card doesn't mean you're allowed to hold it over my head and paint me as a hypocrite every time I want to vote a player for negative post tones. I'm making an effort to play nice, I even went back on my 131 after I realized I was wrong about it.

I think I'm going to reread what's down on Serela and then I'll decide if I'm going to switch to Omba based on this 1v1

[Pesco]

##Unvote
##Vote NNR

Too much fluff. Post later.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

##Unvote
Raitaki's wagon is falling apart and his recent scumhunting has been dynamic enough to be satisfying. Would like to know where this content was earlier in the day, however, since stuff like his vote on Omba was possible with the amount of posts he had to work with previously.

I'm still uninterested @Ombawagon even after the back-and-forth, it reads to me more like Kilga is frustrated with Omba because :character:. I didn't take Omba's #180 as "Clouded judgment and illogical thinking are good for town" or "People not caring is good for town", just "Emotional posts made under clouded judgment are easier to read". Also, Affinity claiming Omba isn't taking the effort to differentiate between newbtown and newbscum seems questionable - how does that apply to Omba more than the rest of the Raitaki wagon? Still believe IHNN is more silly than scummy, so wouldn't prefer that either.

##Vote: NekoNekoRex (L-4)
Dude has spent most of his time sniping other players while voteparking. Rex, if Omba looked bad to you early on for the Raitaki vote, and looked bad to you later in hindsight, why's your vote been on Serela this whole time? Seems opportunistic given that you haven't followed your Serela stance up with anything. Additionally,

Discouraging, unhelpful, contributes little other then to say "you're bad, try harder"

How was this worse than your Raitaki vote, which was the same sort of "try harder" prodvote? You also referred to Raitaki's ED1 as "completely worthless". Given how much focus you've put on how bad Raitaki attacks look, it seems like your Raitaki vote wasn't something you actually believed in. I'm not saying it looks bad that you changed your read, it looks like you never had the initial read in the first place.

Also, when Raitaki improved himself to you, why did you immediately go for the rising wagon instead of attempting to re-read Omba and PX before voting, when they both previously irked you?

[Pesco]

Or HW can just post for me. I'm also disliking NNR's Appeal to Victim(?) as a defense against Omba.

My reread of Omba gets a few things from early on that I agree with. Where next for Omba now that Raitaki is picking up the game?

[Shadoweh]

##Unvote
Raitaki's wagon is falling apart and his recent scumhunting has been dynamic enough to be satisfying. Would like to know where this content was earlier in the day, however, since stuff like his vote on Omba was possible with the amount of posts he had to work with previously.

This kind of language sounds really odd from you. It's the kind of parsing I would expect Affinity to write. What do you mean by 'dynamic enough to be satisfying'? I also dislike how you use the vote on NNR to sidestep commenting on Serela. At all. He's a p. big wagon right now but you give an opinion on everyone but? Earlier you said you agreed with the case on him but right now it looks like you wouldn't touch it.

Pesco blanket agreeing with something that sounds so weird is also off. Pesco, what you've managed to point out in those links is that Omba vs NNR is an emotional slapfight that's been going on since ED1.

On the topic of voteparking, BT has been sitting on his vote since ED1 on IHNN. (Actually he hasn't posted for awhile). His original reason for voting hasn't been valid since IHNN changed his vote, but there's been no follow up with his opinions. He has one more scum suspect then Serela, that is, one. Since the IHNN wagon doesn't look like it's going anywhere I find his silence both for pushing his suspect or finding a new one extremely suspicious and expect him to have something for us soon. (I can see you around dragon boy.)

I think I'm going to reread what's down on Serela and then I'll decide if I'm going to switch to Omba based on this 1v1

THERE ARE NO 1 VS 1'S GOING ON HERE. YOU SIT YOUR ASS DOWN AND STAY ON THIS WAGON OR I SWEAR TO GOD I WILL TURN THIS CAR AROUND. You are like a pair of kids slapfighting in the backseat going I'm not touching you I'm not touching you! Voting based on emotion is the antithesis to playing mafia.

[BT]

I warned I'll be busy, Shadoweh. Thankfully weekend is now.

Vote stays on IHNN. Handwaving play as silly needs to stop.

Will elaborate on my point in #149: gut stances are throwaways and vote on Rai was waffle. Then he pleads confusion with no effort to improve, instead agreeing with cases because he admittedly couldn't make them.
Town acknowledge their faults and work to do their best regardless.
Scum acknowledge their faults and let them be known so that everyone else can do the same.

Recent cases seal the deal. Case on Serela is a restatement of Shadoweh's and case on Omba in particular is a collection and something he could have done earlier (proving my point that he wasn't trying). Recent switch to Serela is bad considering he gutted him as town in #128. Smells like jump.

Who is this guy with the solid stance you're referring to? Serela can't agree on his feelings for the person he's voting for in the same post.

Vote on IHNN was a solid stance. Not ideal execution, waffle on everything else in the world, but seems like he's trying (and failing). Not sold his scummy is scum, sold on IHNN more.

I think his thoughts follow a natural progression. Where do I go from here -----> Looking over people and what you think of them ----> Vote person you still find suspicious.

Was this referring to his switch to Rai? <_< In which case he literally voted him off of PoE.

NNR needs further reading. Still uninterested in Omba lynch.

[Shadoweh]

Was this referring to his switch to Rai? <_< In which case he literally voted him off of PoE.

Yeah, that's what I was referring to. He was PoEing people he might have found suspicious. Regardless, I don't think you can get an IHNN wagon off the ground again at this point. Your argument is that he was claiming to be confused and acknowledging cases he thought were good and that's scummy. I think it would be scummier if he just pretended they never happened, which wouldn't have left him 'looking weak' in the first place. What do you mean by the case on Omba being something he could have done earlier though?

Vote on IHNN was a solid stance. Not ideal execution, waffle on everything else in the world, but seems like he's trying (and failing). Not sold his scummy is scum, sold on IHNN more.

No it wasn't. He literally says he thinks IHNN isn't votable earlier in the same post. Serela hasn't made a solid stance in a single post he's made. And instead of ramping up his activity trying to post more to figure these people out he's going for a tactical Serela Day 1 Lurk It Out (TM).

Look, if your main reason for not wanting to look at Serela is because your suspect is voting him (and this goes out to everyone), remember two things. One, you don't know your suspects alignment yet. You could be calling a wagon of 3-4 bonafide townies riding on scum the scummiest thing you've ever seen. Two, scum are the best at catching other scum and Serela is like a scum pony, everyone wants a ride. Maybe they thought their buddy was doomed with all the support he was getting and wanted in on the early cred. Either way, judge based on the person, not just on who's attacking them. And then vote for Serela so we can bring this baby home. Shadoweh wants a scum lunch.

[BT]

Your argument is that he was claiming to be confused and acknowledging cases he thought were good and that's scummy. I think it would be scummier if he just pretended they never happened, which wouldn't have left him 'looking weak' in the first place.

My argument is that he was (arguably still is) essentially active lurking by contributing nothing, and "that's okay because he's always like that". I'll be damned if the vote on Rai wasn't a premature jump. In fact, all his votes were easy in one way or another, and his opinions have been nonexistent / easily swayed (which is often a result of them never being authentic).

What do you mean by the case on Omba being something he could have done earlier though?

The following:

There's something funny about Omba though in general I find myself agreeing.

*sigh*
and again, more experienced players come in and put into words what I'm thinking far more eloquently/convincingly than I've been able to.
Kilga's post pretty much exactly sums it up, with more words and more reasons than I would have.

Omba:
<stuff that existed during the former post was made>
Verdict: Likely scum.

No it wasn't. He literally says he thinks IHNN isn't votable earlier in the same post. Serela hasn't made a solid stance in a single post he's made.

Oh, that's why. I read his post as "don't wanna lynch IHNN, oh wait this post changes my mind, now I want him dead".

Look, if your main reason for not wanting to look at Serela is because your suspect is voting him (and this goes out to everyone), remember two things. One, you don't know your suspects alignment yet. You could be calling a wagon of 3-4 bonafide townies riding on scum the scummiest thing you've ever seen. Two, scum are the best at catching other scum and Serela is like a scum pony, everyone wants a ride. Maybe they thought their buddy was doomed with all the support he was getting and wanted in on the early cred. Either way, judge based on the person, not just on who's attacking them. And then vote for Serela so we can bring this baby home. Shadoweh wants a scum lunch.

I'm the one that called people out for clearing people because their scumread is voting them in #123. :V Scum/Scum is actually a possibility I'm considering plenty. Both would be seen by scum as meaningful (and easy) wagons at time of voting (Serela on IHNN, IHNN on Serela). Notice that I never said I disagree with Serela's lynch; IHNN's jump could easily be a bus, also considering the inconsistency. I guess I just prefer IHNN if it happens that one of them are town.

[Affinity]

@huhwhat:

pesco's questioning of Rai was on the ball regarding his scumhunting and elicited useful responses from him.  If I remember right you made a judgement on the newbtown/scum thing here, and you acknowledged Rai's improving content. 

Omba seems rather fixated on him however, and his questions have been more of pointing out mistakes (e.g Serela not being a new player), rather than trying to get a better idea of his views on wagons and such. 

===

Tentatively, I would like to say that I prefer the Serela wagon to Rai's and IHNN's; I pretty much agree with the many points against him in general, and I don't think his response to my line of questioning is very impressive.  His IHNN and Omba suspicions do indeed look insincere.