Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F (Read 264803 times)

Parallaxal · « **Reply #150 on:** March 08, 2012, 03:09:53 PM »

MND debuffs aren't really necessary. I don't think they're as useful as DEF debuffs are, as high MND enemies tend to be more resistant to debuffs anyway. That and Holland Doll is fairly weak, with a relatively weak debuff on it too. If I'm using Alice, it's for the DPS on Return Inanimate.

Serela · « **Reply #151 on:** March 08, 2012, 10:38:38 PM »

Quote from: Sukusuku Keine on March 08, 2012, 11:42:35 AM

No love for Shikieiki? She damages, ignores defense, sweeps, debuffs and does status effects including Death.
Spoiler:
Ridiculous SP cost aside that is.

Shikieiki's SP costs are steep in Plus Disk, using her in the maingame is drastically worse. She'd be nigh-useless in randoms because after one or two battles even late into the maingame she'd run out of SP, and in bosses the same problem would still be very, very bad.

But anyway, Alice's uses are being a durable caster with a useful range of different damaging options to choose from, and ATK/MAG debuffs. I honestly never had much use for def/mnd debuffs in any of my three runs of the game. Their effect just doesn't amount to much, outside of helping with a superhigh def/mnd enemy, which are usually easier to smash with a nuke instead. Of course, they're nice on the side with a skill that debuffs -everything- (Or everything other then SPD), but they simply aren't worth the effort by themselves in almost all cases.

Tangrelle · « **Reply #152 on:** March 09, 2012, 01:35:13 AM »

I'm sure this question has come up before, but is Flowing Hellfire a Physical, Magical, or Composite spell? I'm trying to think ahead for my current party (At this point, assume that it's always something different because I am never able to decide ever).

Other than that, would Rinnosuke be able to tank as well as Meiling can, or at least somewhat close? I'm wondering about that currently, seeing as I've always wanted to pull off the thing he can do with Yukari later on.

Zil · « **Reply #153 on:** March 09, 2012, 01:45:22 AM »

Isn't Meiling just vastly superior to him in every aspect?

Parallaxal · « **Reply #154 on:** March 09, 2012, 03:02:32 AM »

Flowing Hellfire is purely magical, targetting MND only.

Rinnosuke does more damage, has decent multi-target damage, and has World-Shaking Military Rule for those big flashy plays, but he's nowhere near as tanky as Meiling is.

Serela · « **Reply #155 on:** March 09, 2012, 03:48:36 AM »

Rinnosuke's tankiness is more comparable to Remilia, except he can't buff himself.

Tangrelle · « **Reply #156 on:** March 09, 2012, 04:33:03 AM »

Oh :ohdear:

Then maybe I'll just stick with meiling and mess with the team a bit more.

Ahhh this is so hard ;.;

I'm trying to cover all the bases I can but this seems to just stretch me too far out if anything. Maybe I should just aim for certain objectives, like a healer, and not necessarily spending a character slot on a debuffer. bah, I just don't know what's like, bare-minimum necessary for stuff like this!

but if I remove Yukari and Rinno from the team, then I have:

Yuuka, Kanako, Mokou, Nitori, Kaguya, Youmu, Minoriko, Komachi, Reimu, and Iku.

Assuming I put Meiling in there, then I have one extra slot left. i gotta think about that one.

Zil · « **Reply #157 on:** March 09, 2012, 04:50:31 AM »

I really don't think Minoriko's needed. I got through the game just fine with only Reimu for healing.

Mokou's just kind of plain. I don't know why you'd need her. Also, Your team doesn't make such a huge difference. As long as you have Reimu you're basically good to go, so I'd just choose characters who seem most fun to play.

Tangrelle · « **Reply #158 on:** March 09, 2012, 05:01:06 AM »

I'm not sure. If it's possible to work without Minoriko, then maybe I'd be better off.

I mostly want Mokou because Fujiyama Volcano hurts, if I recall. I'm not really sure how much, however! Her generally pleasant affinities and defenses also make me feel better. She's not like Flan, where if I mess up I lose a character for the battle.

Pesco · « **Reply #159 on:** March 09, 2012, 05:19:49 AM »

A character's power as a boss is not an indication of their power as a player. Mokou is pretty boring. You could easily have Suika, Reisen or Chen take the slot to make your team better.

Tangrelle · « **Reply #160 on:** March 09, 2012, 05:37:28 AM »

Ahh, then if she's really not that great, I suppose I should turn elsewhere, huh. I mostly picked her because I figured she would output some fine damage, but if it's not that outstanding, I suppose I should look towards other firey characters, like, Alice, I suppose. She'll probably provide more utility than Mokou.

I suppose then i can sort of drop anyone in the last slot, really. I /think/ I have a good spread of offense, defense, physical, and magic. Along with buffs and healing, so I suppose anyone who would round out a team would do, I suppose? Probably Ran. She seems helpful. That or Keine, too. Possibly Chen, or Suika. Unless there's some glaring weakness in the composition I should be relatively good, right?

Many thanks for bearing with me. I'm sure eventually I'll get a team up and going and get into the plus disc and through the game like I hope ;.;

Rukoto · « **Reply #161 on:** March 09, 2012, 07:14:06 AM »

Well, seeing as the MMO I've last been frequenting kind of got "zeroed out," so to speak, I decided now would be as good time as any to edge even closer to completing this game. I remember getting blasted by dual Hibachi v2 from the last time I was playing, so I went to do a bit of levelling to Reimu 457 or so. Went to challenge the Hibachis, and got wiped on #2's dual funeral washing machine (not even Meiling nor Remi could tank it at full hp). I noticed I had about 46 mil skillpoints kicking around, so I decided to spend them all... :V

Rematch went a lot smoother because of higher defensive stats on my tanks, as well as a better idea of how to go about fighting the hibachis (mostly by starting the match with a buffing spree), which eventually ended on a not-so-smooth clinch victory with Remi's Gungnir (finishing off Hibachi #2), with Iku in slot 2, Marisa idling in slot 3 :derp:, and Mino in slot 4. Everyone else was dead.

Overview:

Spoiler:

No drop, but I'm more than happy to have cleared this boss.

Tangrelle · « **Reply #162 on:** March 09, 2012, 08:37:10 PM »

Out of interest, how does Flan's Starbow Break compare to Nitori's gun in terms of damage? I've heard good things, but the formula of Starbow makes me wonder.

Pesco · « **Reply #163 on:** March 09, 2012, 08:45:15 PM »

Megawatt gun is just more efficient from what I could gather. Starbow is also a composite while Gun is ATK only.

Serela · « **Reply #164 on:** March 09, 2012, 09:05:37 PM »

Megawatt factors in a fairly low amount of defense and over twice as much attack as Starbow, and Nitori has a drastically faster rate of leveling then Flandre, countering her insane ATK growth.

Flandre does have only 50% delay on it and a good SPD stat, but since it hurts her significantly she simply can't stay out in order to gain advantage on that point. Plus her rock bottom defensive stats, outside of a high cushy HP that gets torn down after using Starbow anyway.

Starbow is actually not composite, although Flandre's other two attacks are.

Unfortunately her other two are simply unviable to use, unless you can completely wipe the random trash out of existence with one go, which brings up another point against Flan; she's nigh-useless in random battles if she can't completely wipe it (Which, admittedly, she can do after awhile in many places.). Even with Starbow as a single target smash, it drains her TP -very- fast, and the hp damage plus her astronomically low MND and bad DEF makes it easy for her to die.

Tangrelle · « **Reply #165 on:** March 09, 2012, 09:23:55 PM »

Ah! In that case, I think I am finally almost done and can be satisfied, I think <3

Although the other thing I still have on my mind is if Utsuho really is bad or not. I just have the loveliest portrait for her and all, but I think Alice will probably serve me better for fire damage anyway, and I suppose my group's sp costs are fairly high enough as is without the bird coming in with her own.

Pesco · « **Reply #166 on:** March 09, 2012, 09:27:06 PM »

Oh oops about the attack formulae.

The only bird any team should use is Mystia.

Serela · « **Reply #167 on:** March 09, 2012, 09:39:41 PM »

Quote

The only bird any team should use is Mystia.

Aya actually works extremely well as Chen 2.0 in the plus disk (So that she has the mp to actually spam Peerless Wind God). She's even still good against the bosses with some WND resist, I found out to my surprise, when I used her for such in my third play.

But yeah, unfortunately, Utsuho is just terrible. She's one of the very few characters I just can't see as having ANY sort of good use. Giga Flare could maybe be a thing as a rather minor use, if they didn't let the OOPS on Kaguya's spells stay in, making them all ignore mind (Except the nonelemental one, because... just because.)

Pesco · « **Reply #168 on:** March 09, 2012, 09:52:48 PM »

I'm sure Mystia is also a little better balanced on the defenses than Aya. Team (9) kept Mystia in slot 2. But by postgame Cirno took the slot and spammed White Album.

Serela · « **Reply #169 on:** March 09, 2012, 09:58:05 PM »

Quote from: Pesco on March 09, 2012, 09:52:48 PM

But by postgame Cirno took the slot and spammed White Album.

I really don't think you can use Team ⑨ run results as research to apply to using them normally... :V

Mystia isn't frail, but not tanky at all, in a normal game (Mystia is still definitely a great character, not denying that at all, used her happily as well in my third play), and Aya at least has the rapefast speed with her permanent 100% speed bonus and low delay to switch herself out from Peerless Wind God spams, similarly to how Chen could switch herself out in maingame to avoid boss attacks.

Reminds me of my other discovery; Ran spamming her composite attack turned out to be a hidden gem. It was beautiful. And Ran's stats are all so good.

Rukoto · « **Reply #170 on:** March 10, 2012, 12:50:14 AM »

I find that Mystia's bulk is pretty sufficient when you consider her speed and low delay of her dive. Sure, she can't tank repeated powerful hits, but she's not gonna break in a light breeze, either. No idea if she can hold up to WINNER, but I'll probably find out when I get there... In 100+ levels :V

Hopefully I can finish this run in the realistic near future and get on with a ng+ run. I'm rather curious about a lot of other characters (and builds, such as the aformentioned offensive Ran), regardless of how bad they are.

Serela · « **Reply #171 on:** March 10, 2012, 01:05:11 AM »

Yeah, Mystia can take a hit, as long as it's not a nasty one. She's not really durable -or- frail. Her attack power/speed is respectable, she's pretty nice.

MysTeariousYukari · « **Reply #172 on:** March 10, 2012, 01:57:28 AM »

Flan, if she is fast enough, can deal some *serious* damage in a short span of time. From my own usage, I can think of her as a faster-but-fragile-er version of Nitori(who I have also used and loved ^.^).

Utsuho, I used for a while, thinking "Who cares if the formula's aren't *that* great, it's freaking Utsuho!" and she preformed rather well(then again, I say the same about Remilia). In postgame, she's got reliable enough SPD(outruning anything that isn't Aya/Chen sort of omgfast), and can usually either wipe the trash, or leave them close to dead, with either Tokamak OR Reaction. If I pull out Giga Flare? They just plain die, unless they got some wicked HP and/or Mys Affinity And if Utsuho gets hit? pffft, like that's an issue, her defenses are naturally good enough that's not an issue unless the attack was something big.

Mystia... just looking at her stats, I find it hard to believe that she is as good as people say. I suppose she's like Reisen then? "Better in practice then on paper" or such? I look at her stats, and I think "slower then Chen, but better stats overall, but still nothing special."

Serela · « **Reply #173 on:** March 10, 2012, 02:04:30 AM »

Utsuho doesn't have particularly good stat growth considering her leveling rate, and the formula on her moves is pathetic, so I imagine that your other damaging characters were probably capable of similar damage to your Utsuho... or else I don't even know, heh.

Conversely, Mystia's leveling rate is VERY good, which makes her stat gains a lot better then they look at first glance. She has good damage dealing and very strong spammable multi-target paralysis, which is great for randoms combined with her speed, and Ill-Starred Dive has a quite low delay in addition to her good speed and decent damage. So she actually ends up quite nice.

Tangrelle · « **Reply #174 on:** March 10, 2012, 02:21:53 AM »

...Bah >:C

Sometimes I wish there were more viable Cold spell users than Kanako. Cirno and Eirin, are, erm >>; And Suwako has a better spell! How very depressing.

If Futo or something was in the game I'm sure she might end up with one or something. But ah, there aren't truly to be any more expansions.

I suppose I don't mind - I love using Kanako! But being limited to her as your choice of Cold nuke just never sat well with me.

Serela · « **Reply #175 on:** March 10, 2012, 02:34:11 AM »

Suwako has a better cold spell, but you'd have to go the definitely inferior MAG route to really make use of it... and Cirno only barely stands up to actual attackers when the boss is -weak- to cold. Eirin's is also -really- weak. I suppose... Komachi has one...? It barely stands up to the damage of her SPI nuke -after- the double damage increase, though.

Ah, I suppose Nitori has one that works if the target doesn't have great DEF. But... Megawatt. Okay, maybe the overabundance of CLD-weak bosses (And Yukari being about the only NTR weak outside of one of Rinno's forms) means that a magic Suwako isn't -completely- a bad idea. But, it'd only seriously be considerable if you were planning on dropping Suwako later. Because she'd be pretty boring outside of randoms and CLD-weak bosses.

There's soooo many bosses weak to cold though, that taking Kanako along isn't a bad idea. But on the upside, if you don't want to use her (Because she really isn't that exciting outside of CLD nuke; her damage is otherwise somewhat eh for a nuker, and while her defenses are nice, her HP is pretty low, so she's not exactly a tanky caster either), the game expects you to not have a CLD nuke anyway.

Which is most probably why like half of the bosses are weak to CLD :getdown:

Zil · « **Reply #176 on:** March 10, 2012, 02:49:31 AM »

Alright. I considered this a while ago but now I'm actually doing it. My team consists only of final boss characters, meaning...

Yuuka
Remilia
Yuyuko
Eirin
Kaguya
Eiki
Kanako
Utsuho
Tenshi
Suika

Does this seem viable, or would it be senseless to bother? I could include Reimu with the justification that she is Eiki's final boss in PoFV, but I'd rather not.

Tangrelle · « **Reply #177 on:** March 10, 2012, 03:03:56 AM »

Ah, well, I myself would certainly say that is both a nasty and hard run!

Your only healer is Eirin and for most of the early game she'll only be able to heal someone for 50% once before resting. The team is pretty heavily magic-skewed, on that note.

I will say that if you can handle not actually having any real heals, then by all means! But you really might need Reimu or someone else to help. I think characters heal when they're not active, but it's probably not that much.

Serela · « **Reply #178 on:** March 10, 2012, 03:15:54 AM »

Reimu is also the final boss for the scenarios for the boss characters of IaMP and SWR (Suika and Tenshi). And you seriously need her, especially considering you don't even get Minoriko or Sanae.

You could also possibly consider adding Extra mode characters, which mainly just lets you weed out the characters that REALLY wouldn't be useful. Maribel could also possibly be used, as she's the final boss of Touhou Labyrinth itself; and she's one of the few who'll be able to have their attack buffed, which actually makes her strong in such a team.

Oh god you don't even get Meiling; that's a huge enough setback itself, although at least Tenshi is available. If you didn't want a playthrough like that to be REALLY cruel to you, you'd really want to add in extra bosses (And -definitely- Reimu. No ifs ands or buts, you would NOT get anywhere without her. Yuuka and Eirin cannot even pretend to be your sole methods of healing, and you similarly need to have def/mnd buffs.)

You'd probably have to spec Remilia out for tanking with her levelup bonuses instead of offense, possibly Eirin and/or Yuuka as well. Eirin's offense is horrible outside of the too-expensive Astronomical Entombing anyway. And... without extra stage people like Ran, you'd be low on multitargets for randoms, especially ones that don't cost a bucketload of SP and can deal nice damage. You might want to go for a magic suwako in that case just to soften random battle difficulty.

Quote from: Tangrelle on March 10, 2012, 03:03:56 AM

I will say that if you can handle not actually having any real heals, then by all means!

This pretty much isn't possible without massive overleveling or whatnot, beyond the means of any reasonable amount of normal grinding. Things you have to consider are how hard a normal run of the game is... and then how much worse a restricted team is in comparison to a more optimal one.

Sure, Parallaxal's Team Underappreciated worked out, but the thing was that it was actually not a bad party at all. They were underappreciated, yeah, but for the most part, actually pretty good characters. And he had his bases covered.

Zil · « **Reply #179 on:** March 10, 2012, 03:25:55 AM »

Yeah, I'll add Reimu and Maribel, which puts me at 12 characters. I've also carried over items from my previous game, which I can hopefully use to avoid being forced to overlevel when necessary. If this still comes out to be too hellish I'll throw in some EX characters.

Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F (Read 264803 times)

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