Umineko Mafia - Day 4

[Nietz]

[cracktheory]Dorian is Wrathie's alt :V[/cracktheory]

Count me subscribed.

But I definitely see his point on donut, I also noticed the timing of his jumping on NF's wagon. I don't think it necessarily makes him scummy, it did feels like he was trying to get the attention off him but townies can do that too, and in fact it looked like a pretty bad moment to bus a scumpartner, so I expected a NF flip to sort some light over him.

For all the space that it took in the last page, the pesco/Rou argument did little to nothing to advance the situation. pesco's situation, that is. All I get from you is that you are not willing to act pro-town in this game. And judging by past experience, you're being the exact kind of anti-town you are when being scum.

As I mentioned, I don't like Fusion's claim, specially in light of his play so far, and I think waiting to see how tomorrow plays out will likely only bring WIFOM. Even so, I'm still a little more inclined to lynch with pesco and deal with Nf tomorrow, so:

##Vote pesco

[Nuclear Fusion]

So hey guys, since Dorian is ignoring me, does that make him not scummy?

...

I wish the emote I wanted right now was here. It's :omg: and it would be perfect for this situation.

[Carthrat]

Copclaim? Unprecedented

I guess we shouldn't lynch him, now. ##Unvote, and I kneejerk want to lynch pesco for pressing onwards despite a copclaim being in the works. Regardless of how horrible UF looks, lynching him with claim in hand is unwise. At least Donut seems to have the right idea, not gonna want to lynch him over pesco, as the votes seem to be indicating at present.

Leaving Pesco's ostensible reasons for dropping suspicion on Donut aside, btw, it really grates that he couldn't just give his reason to Rou in the first place. "I dropped my vote because he's okay now" sums up the initial response, and it takes about a page and a half before any real clarification is done. I'm not liking how this got strung out, and the content of his page 4 posts is so.. whiny.

Rou, why do I have to fight with you even when I'm town. Prove to me that there hasn't been any tunnel bias in your opinions.

like this. But I trace Rou's arguments and his train of thought seems very natural, soooo.

##Vote: Pesco, here.

Neitz is kinda chilling and just hanging out, waiting for the right moment to pick one of his two targets without committing. I'm very leery of him at present. Kiro also loses points for saying he's willing to lynch UF despite his claim.

[Serp]

Well, this is a mess.  I suppose we should give Nuke a pass for today.  If he's still alive tomorrow, we'll see what he produces.

As for our other options, the whole Pesco versus Roukanken thing reminds me of their spat two games ago.  Then again, Pesco was scum that game, so maybe that's not a bad thing.  The initial case on Pesco isn't that compelling for me - Pesco was just a little vague and gave some alternate (but not necessarily self-contradictory) reasons for his behavior.  His reaction to Roukanken's prodding is a little evasive, though.

Donut has been defending Pesco, but I think that may be justified at this point.  We're running low on time, and so we should be saying why we're dismissing the cases that we don't subscribe to.  I notice that Nuke has also been defending Pesco.  Supposing that we lynch Pesco, then if Pesco flips Town, that dismantles a lot of the case against Donut.  If Pesco flips Scum, then that makes Donut and Nuke both look bad.

As to the Dorian case, there's not much to it, but that's mostly because Dorian himself hasn't said much.  He may be an easy target, but...  the reason he's an easy target is that lurkerscum are a very real possibility, and lurkers in general are a liability in the lategame.  Take all the points you want from me for going after a weak target, but I think we're giving a pass to players who look weak too easily.  If you'll pardon some more meta, Pesco might be behaving a lot like he was two games ago, but Dorian is also looking a lot like UncertainKitten and Mr Alert were, too.

##Unvote
##Vote Dorian G.

Also willing to vote or hammer Pesco if it comes down to it.

[nintendonut888]

Hmm, now that Serpentarius mentions it, we haven't heard much of anything from Dorian, have we? I've been dismissing him as a newbie this whole time, but him being lurkerscum is indeed a possibility. I don't really like the Pesco bandwagon (though if it comes down to it I'll hammer), so let's see where this goes:

##Vote Dorian G

[Nuclear Fusion]

Serp, donut - Screw you guys. I've been saying this for how long now? Why are you both suddenly for it?

[Serp]

Serp, donut - Screw you guys. I've been saying this for how long now? Why are you both suddenly for it?

There's a big difference between being oddly quiet for 23 hours (which is how long you waited before voting him) and staying oddly quiet for 48 hours (which is how long I waited before voting him).

[Nuclear Fusion]

Serp, donut - Screw you guys. I've been saying this for how long now? Why are you both suddenly for it?

There's a big difference between being oddly quiet for 23 hours (which is how long you waited before voting him) and staying oddly quiet for 48 hours (which is how long I waited before voting him).

I'd find this more valid if day didn't have a time limit. As day is just short (and almost up, I think), staying quite for 23 hours is a big problem.

But I can see where you are coming from there.

[nintendonut888]

According to the last votecount, we still have a day left, don't worry.

[Nuclear Fusion]

According to the last votecount, we still have a day left, don't worry.

Oh hey cool, it does say that in the vote count.

[Kiro]

This is a WoT! Skip to the last 2 paragraphs if you want to see my vote and reason first.

---

What not to like:
-Dorian letting NF go for being "waaaaaaay too suspicious" and not for the copclaim.
-Donut buddying up to Pesco (although that brings up bad memories of Town me buddying up to Town Donut games ago. Even though I was correct, I still would have lynched myself in that situation in hindsight).

---

Re Rou and Pesco: The weird thing about Rou first questioning the Pesco/Donut exchange in #62 is that you tack on the fact that they both switched to me. I don't see why there's a problem with that and it frames your bias into thinking they're acting in concert when they were actually voting me for different reasons. I get that Pesco not making a clear explanation of things is not good, but looking at the situation as a whole, I don't think it's that worthy for you clinging to it all the way to now. The whole thing could have been dropped at Pesco's #68 which looks like the first time he's clarifying it. Rou is definitely a bit tunnely there.

As Serp mentioned, this is exactly like the situation 2 games ago and I pursued Town Roukan before switching to Scum Pesco at the end and that was still a bit of a WTF moment for me when I saw the flip. On the one hand, just like in that game, I wouldn't put it past a possible Scum Roukan in letting this argument drag on at the expense of possible Town Pesco's playstyle that Pesco refuses to correct. On the other hand, my impression of Pesco is that he's acting EXACTLY the same as in that previous game, and this was when I was deluded most of the time into thinking he was Town and Roukan was Scum. For fucks sake, I blame Pesco on this because if he's Town, he knows he's more likely to lose and should stop with the goading regardless of Rou's alignment (he's not voting for Rou in this game just like he wasn't voting for Rou in that game) and if he's Scum, well, he's being a bothersome ass again and not really helping his team out with all the attention.

---

Re Nuclear Fusion:

B) The confirm vote on donut was still part of RVS.

Ugh, for the sake of you calling the phase "Do A Trial Balance FirstDicking Around To Be Funny," and the fact you so vehemently defended that you weren't a part of the bandwagon at #74 and #87, I'll take your word at face value on this point.

Also, you say you're actively scumhunting more than others in #94, but you don't have much to show for it other than something simple on Dorian. Your answer to who else is scummy is highly unsatisfactory, naming Roukan and Carthrat for no discernible reason other than bad vibes. If you have time to give us lessons on scumtells like in #136, you have time to refine your suspicions on Roukan and Carthrat. As a whole, I am still not liking your playstyle and how it led up to you hinting at your roleclaim before you even got to L-1. You planned to roleclaim way too early and it feels like something Scum would do faking a claim more than a Town Cop trying to remain hidden until absolutely necessary. You have no reason to assume a Doc even exists in this game to protect you at least once. All of that also doesn't add up to your attempted gambit on Serpentarius.

---HERE'S THE LAST 2 PARAGRAPHS!!!---

Donut's switch to Dorian is a bit of an odd timing. You say in #124 that you're finding Dorian suspicious, but don't want to vote him on a gut instinct. What makes you want to vote him now? Oh I know, cuz Serpentarius just did it in the post right before you. Your words even phrase it as a bit of a piggyback. On the whole, I'm now finding Donut very weird. He's inconsistent on his stance with me in that he didn't unvote me for awhile. There's also an unusual irony between his vote for NF in #97 and in his vote for Dorian in #154 which also gives a comment saying he'll hammer Pesco if he needs to. And just for amusement, you clarify in #158 that we still have plenty of time left so why the worry about hammering Pesco now? All of this after you take the time and effort to defend Pesco beginning with the lines of "I'm not trying to necessarily defend Pesco." If you thought Rou was wrong, it doesn't mean you have to answer for Pesco with assumptions or hypotheticals. So my point is that you've been remarkably lazy in your voting reasons, but you've taken the time to defend a particular person. Finally, you haven't really been scumhunting at all.

All of this got nuts, but I'm pegging Donut as the most unusual now for his overall inconsistencies. I'd take a stronger stance on Pesco/Rou except the damn argument is on something ages ago and is heavily semanticized by now. It seems the NF lynch won't go for today, but I really dislike the leadup as well as the somewhat lack of effort now (commenting from the peanut gallery mostly). And about voting for Dorian... yea... eliminating the liability is always good, but that's not actual scumhunting. I'm a little suspicious Serpentarius chose that route in the end. Serpentarius also did not mention the fact that Dorian let NF pass and not for the copclaim in his reason to vote him.

##Vote nintendonut888

[Serp]

And about voting for Dorian... yea... eliminating the liability is always good, but that's not actual scumhunting. I'm a little suspicious Serpentarius chose that route in the end. Serpentarius also did not mention the fact that Dorian let NF pass and not for the copclaim in his reason to vote him.

I know that when you go after a lurker, you're not likely to get much of a response, but we've got just 24 hours left in the day.  We need to shift away from prodding people to get responses and towards putting forward our cases for who we think should be lynched.  The way that the votes fall into place at the end of the day is just as important if not moreso than who prods who and what comes out of that.  As for leaving out the fact that Dorian didn't so much as mention Nuke's claim...  Well, the point is that Dorian hasn't mentioned much at all, and Nuke's copclaim is just one of many things that Dorian hasn't mentioned.

As for Donut, it seems like the case for him being scum hinges on Pesco being scum too.  If that's the case, wouldn't it be smarter to lynch Pesco and then take another look at Donut in light of his flip?  I'd feel better contributing to a Pesco lynch than a Donut one, if Dorian doesn't go through.

[nintendonut888]

I'd hoped Dorian would respond before I got called out on my vote, but I see that's more than I should have hoped for. I'm voting Dorian in the hopes that with 3 or so votes he'll actually start talking. I want more information out of him, simple as that.

Finally, you haven't really been scumhunting at all.

Because I suck at scumhunting. >_> I'm not a very perceptive person, okay? I can try all I want but I can never seem to do it.

So my point is that you've been remarkably lazy in your voting reasons, but you've taken the time to defend a particular person.

In lieu of having good scumhunting skills, I instead try to defend people I don't think are scummy. Also, if I extend my posts to a full two pages and quote meaningless BS, does that make my votes and their reasons more valid?

[Kiro]

Serp: I'll concede the point about missing the copclaim as neutral as I did assume he had noticed NF's copclaim. You are correct in that he didn't mention it so there's no proof he noted it. As for your comment about "putting forward our cases for who we think should be lynched," Dorian is more lynch worthy than these other people who you have more of their statements to draw upon? I'm not seeing why because he hasn't been THAT unresponsive, just irregular.

As for Donut, it seems like the case for him being scum hinges on Pesco being scum too.  If that's the case, wouldn't it be smarter to lynch Pesco and then take another look at Donut in light of his flip?  I'd feel better contributing to a Pesco lynch than a Donut one, if Dorian doesn't go through.

I'll disagree to that. Donut buddying up to Pesco could be Scum Donut trying to clear Town Pesco and give an "I told you so" vibe if Pesco gets lynched. And of course, there's the chance he's trying to prevent a Scumbuddy Pesco from getting lynched. Pesco's alignment has no bearing on Donut's alignment. I've thought about the two as separate individuals and I'm finding Donut's laziness except for a Pesco defense along with a "I'll hammer Pesco if need be at the end" a greater worry than Pesco's half-evasiveness over a comment Donut made about RVS in the beginning of the game.

Cut by Donut: Do you remember that game when I tried to defend you, 9 Squad Mafia? It was terrible for me, and I recall you not understanding why I was doing it too and I'm sure you didn't know whether I was legit or not. Yea... that's how I see you now regarding Pesco. What's worse is that you're lazy everywhere else which is scummy. Don't make the excuse that because you don't type as much as some people, that your reasons are going to suck in terms of scumhunting. If you'll notice, I'm not voting you because your posts are short.

[nintendonut888]

Personally, I think it's amazing I still give a damn about everything and am keeping up. >_>

Clearly I'm not the type who is good at picking things up, or is good at Mafia. Well, either way, I'm done here for today.

[Affinity]

Votecounts need to come far more often.  At least twice a page.

@donut:

I think it's safe to assume that those who don't know how to find scum are probably scum themselves; I think this is the major problem for that faction.  Thus, I think my vote shall stay, due to his answer to my question and his posts (btw donut the reasons for the NF case were present for a long time before you first pointed out his mistake.  Furthermore, you said that you were light on the other reasons, implying that you didn't really believe themm thus there is a contradiction).

Also,

I've been dismissing him as a newbie this whole time, but him being lurkerscum is indeed a possibility.

is very bad and smacks of not knowing what to do if you're relying on possibilities as opposed to probabilities (e.g comment more deeply on other cases).  This happened throughout the game. 

---

I feel that Dorian.G gave an original point, and in doing so did more scumhunting than NF ever did.  Quoting my explanation was however pretty lame, and I doubt that you would have explained that way if you explained it yourself.  Thus, I'm willing to judge him another day.

I don't like Nietz for his justification for not finding donut's switch to NF scummy; it smacks of WIFOM when he says he doesn't think it's a good idea to bus, but there is also a simple oversight, since NF is not necessarily scum.  Scum donut may have just been trying to pretend having a stance.

I'm okay with lynching pesco if it comes down to it for above-mentioned reasons.

[Affinity]

Unofficial votecount: (Now an official votecount ~Alice)

Rumore di onde. La voce del mare come un canto
Ascoltando sembra purificarsi la colpa commessa
Mi culla dolcemente il rumore delle onde
Sereno mi addormento e ho sogni felici

Day 1 Vote Count - 22 hours remaining:
pesco (4): - Roukanken, Zakeri, Nietz, Carthrat
donut (3): - Nuclear Fusion, Nietz, Serpentarius, Dorian, Affinity, Kiro
Dorian (3): - Nuclear Fusion, Serpentarius, donut
Nuclear Fusion (1): - Affinity, Carthrat, donut, Pesco
Nietz (0): - Serpentarius
Zakeri (0): - Carthrat
Affinity (0): - Dorian
Kiro (0): - donut, pesco
Carthrat (0): - Kiro
Roukanken (0): -

Not voting: donut

[Carthrat]

NF really likes to attack people who vote for whoever he's voting for. That seems intuitively uncool.

Kiro: I don't see Roukan as dragging it on.. at all, really. Blame falls squarely on Pesco, here.

I don't understand why Dorian gave NF a pass for being too suspicious. The whole sequence of votes there is decidedly odd. Don't think he's nearly as bad as some notable others after attempting to view his posts without the lens of bad presentation getting in the way.

As for Donut, I can't say I'm happy with him pulling out "I suck at scumhunting and only defend people", that's.. unhelpful. If you're defending someone you're already making judgement calls on person or peoples X being scummier than them, and attacking them is going to do you better. I think it's somewhat unlikely scum would blaisely admit that, but I wouldn't protest his lynch; prefer Pesco at present nonetheless.

[Pesco]

I'm not seeing much for me to answer to due to limited phone view.

Zak needs a prod and an official vote count. I'll assume I'm at L-1 and claim.

Natsuhi, wife of Krauss. A jerkass bitch with well-meaning intentions. And I have aspirins for use at night. Aspirins contain salicylic acid and ease headaches, that's all there is to it.

[WHMZakeri]

Pesco 100 - I would like to think I would target you no matter who you insulted, but I admit your response to Roukan's first post set off major alarms in my head. I must have been traumatized by the last time you told Roukanken he sucked at playing mafia, since I accidentally defended the godmother in that game :V

it feels to me that you think voting me is a safer lynch to push.

Actually, I think pushing your lynch when I did was less safe than pushing the lynch on Nuke, since "Pesco feels like scum by gut and Nuclear feels like scum by facts".

I felt Donut wasn't scummy by then, he was simply being an idiot (yay more insults!).

This would be excusable, but it still seems out of place to me for anyone to realize that was true before Donut had everyone explain to him why that reasoning was poor.

Finally, what exactly needs explained that I didn't already note in my post previous?

Post 105-

(for reasons that I think are retarded, I'll add)

Ad Hominim

Cause lynching me would be on the list of stupidest things town can do today

Ad Hominim

So ya, if people want, I'll claim.

Sign of giving up.

Clearly the work of Someone who's cracked under pressure.

I agree with a lot of what Kiro says in 114. The way you treat your cop claim is like it's some sort of get out of jail free card that would send any town riving away in fear of lynching someone who, up until this point seems to be actively choosing to work against the town. It's clear you came here with no intention of taking this game seriously, which unfortunately doesn't work on this forum.

Pesco back and forth with Rou. I see in post 117 that Pesco is trying his hardest to explain his thought process between his vote and unvote of Donut. I'm still skeptical that instead of pressing Donut further, he automatically assumed Occam's Razor at work, then switched to someone else.

but to say "is better to lynch a-good-for-nothing towney than a helpfull-mafioso" goes way

This is Exactly Right

hawever, pass for being waaaaaaaay too suspicious.(for now)

This is Exactly WRONG. I can understand meaning to vote for him later, since that's what my plan is as well, but no one is ever too suspicious to not be attacked for it.

Also, there's some confusion but I think "That" Is suppose to refer to a bandwagon. I know this isn't philosophy class, so Dorian needs to explain it exactly.

Post 123 - Seeing Rou's Comments, Rou is starting to sound like an Angry house Wife. Pesco is beginning to redeam himself by trying to explain his thought process, and since I can see how Town Pesco can act the way he did, I'm willing to back off for now.

##Unvote: Pesco
Vote: Nuke (Not an actual vote, since I don't know what the count is right now)

I'm defending myself because everybody is on my case. If I try to just say "oh hey look I think he is scum" then you would call the deflection. I can't win either way in this case, so I'd rather defend myself to prevent the town from lynching the cop.

Ha Ha, Oh wow.

Okay, let me break this down to you:

1. Defending - Looks Scummy, because the player is putting more emphasis on their own survival over lynching Scum

2. Scum Hunting with baseless accusations - Looks Scummy, because the Player is putting more emphasis on lynching without regards to alignment.

3. Scum Hunting with analysis - Looks Townie, because the player is putting more emphasis on killing scum than protecting them self.

Basically, what you just said is that you feel you should be doing 1 because 2 won't work, and apparently 3 is not an option to be considered. This is only the latest of Several occasions that you highlight your unwillingness to lynch Scum. This is the reason we are voting for you, because you seem to treat the Town as the Enemy here.

I don't know how to make this clearer other than to highlight, italicize, or bold the key phrases in my last paragraph.

Saying I'm trying to hard to vote for you ignores the case I'm trying to present.

What is the case you are trying to present? All I see is "Dorian isn't posting very often." Which isn't a hard scumtell.

You're obviously enjoying this.

He's obviously not. Trust me, go back and read a few of your points. Pesco has Tried to explain his thought process to you several times, and every time you complain about every individual point. He's also tried to stop this argument, which you then sparked another argument over why not explaining himself is scummy. Which, doesn't even apply, because he's been trying to explain himself the whole time.

You may have a point in your case, but Pesco's reactions are more of someone who's getting a headache from a child yelling at them for ice cream than from someone who's getting caught stealing ice cream. I agree that Persisting of this argument from either you or Pesco will lead no where.

Offense is the best defence.  Seriously, turning out a solid case on someone is far better than trying to explain yourself, because it shows that you have a solid stance, really.

However, I completely disagree with you on this.

Why?

Ugh, I'm tired now. I spent five hours on this post.

---tl;dr---
Donut's vote flip can be seen as both scummy bandwagoning and town pressure voting, so I'm considering this a nulltell as well. I'm still Uneasy on Pesco, and I think Rou's case on his is legitimate, but I also feel that Roukanken is trying to antagonize Pesco while playing the victim at the same time. Ultimately, this gives me the exact same feeling as the other game. I'm not planning on making the mistake of Defending Pesco again, but apparently Donut already has. *sigh*

I worry about Nuke. There are only two things I can see him being right now - Scum, or Beilos 2.0. Nothing else.

All in All, I'm not certain where to take my vote now, since the only option I feel strongly one way or the other about is closed off due to not lynching the cop claim is technically better than otherwise. according to Affinity's post which is about to cut me, the bandwagons are Dorian, Pesco, and Donut. The only one I'm entirely unhappy with is Donut.

Cut by Pesco:

Zak needs a Prod

I need a hug.

[Pesco]

* Pesco gives Zak hugs and pettings

[Serp]

Serp: I'll concede the point about missing the copclaim as neutral as I did assume he had noticed NF's copclaim. You are correct in that he didn't mention it so there's no proof he noted it. As for your comment about "putting forward our cases for who we think should be lynched," Dorian is more lynch worthy than these other people who you have more of their statements to draw upon? I'm not seeing why because he hasn't been THAT unresponsive, just irregular.

Dealing with lurkers is tricky business.  Even if Dorian is Town, he's not going to help us much.  I think it has to come down to risk vs. reward.  Now, before you all mob me for pointing this out, keep in mind that we're already acting on this basic maxim.  Nuke has been acting scummy, but we're not lynching him, 'cause he may be our cop.  Similarly, Dorian hasn't been acting (overtly) scummy, but I think he's a good lynch, 'cause he's inconsistent and apparently incapable of really focusing on the game.  I'd rather not enter LYLO with three scum, three relatively committed townies, and one effectively absent player.

Kiro, you still seem to wish for a Nuke lynch, so I get the feeling that you don't like acting on this principle, but I hope you can at least see where I'm coming from.  Picking who to lynch requires balancing more factors than just scummy statements.  Additionally, lurking is a scumtell, just like cracking under the pressure, and I think that puts Dorian at least in the same ballpark as Donut and Pesco.  Honestly, if not for Nuke's copclaim, I'd still favor lynching him over Dorian, though.

I'll disagree to that. Donut buddying up to Pesco could be Scum Donut trying to clear Town Pesco and give an "I told you so" vibe if Pesco gets lynched. And of course, there's the chance he's trying to prevent a Scumbuddy Pesco from getting lynched. Pesco's alignment has no bearing on Donut's alignment. I've thought about the two as separate individuals and I'm finding Donut's laziness except for a Pesco defense along with a "I'll hammer Pesco if need be at the end" a greater worry than Pesco's half-evasiveness over a comment Donut made about RVS in the beginning of the game.

Well, I suppose Donut being scum wouldn't require Pesco to be scum, but I think it would be a little easier to see that scenario than just one or the other being scum.  One's flip should at least help us look at the other's actions in a different light.  Still, after a quick re-read, I suppose I can see them both acting scummy on their own individual merits.  The way that Donut just kind of rolls over and takes the accusations lying down doesn't exactly help matters either.  Count me as leaning back towards Donut again as a lynch if a Dorian lynch doesn't appeal to enough people.

[Carthrat]

Zakeri: Please do not vote or prepare to vote for the copclaim. We can always lynch him later if it comes down to it, and there is a non-trivial chance that he is a cop and may hit scum tonight, and assorted night-role stuff may well come into play that we can't possibly predict (beyond two particularly obvious actions; protect and/or kill.)

This is just as bad as pesco was earlier, and regardless of any accompanying rationale, it is a pro-scum position to support. This goes for anyone who's done the same that I've somehow missed.

<->

On Dorian: Serp brought up 'but he could be a liability in lategame!', which is trash reasoning as is (and seems like an excuse not to scumhunt, frankly)- but to argue along those lines for a sec anyway, I think players like Dorian become far easier to read as the game progresses, particularly as flips come to light. Lynching him now is still a huuuuuge crapshoot.

[Pesco]

Let's get this out there too. My flip has no bearing on what Donut may be. Wagon analysis is all you're going to get.

My point on insults should have asked this, is it still scummy of me when I specifically insult Rou or Donut. No real need to answer this further.

Cut: I'd rather be realistic and not play follow-the-cop. You say give him a chance, which also gives scum greater chances.

[Serp]

On Dorian: Serp brought up 'but he could be a liability in lategame!', which is trash reasoning as is (and seems like an excuse not to scumhunt, frankly)- but to argue along those lines for a sec anyway, I think players like Dorian become far easier to read as the game progresses, particularly as flips come to light. Lynching him now is still a huuuuuge crapshoot.

Kiro and Zakeri get a pass for voting based on their own internally consistent scumhunting philosophy, but it makes no sense to protect the supposed cop while refusing to lynch the lurker.  Both of those positions take stuff into account beyond scummy posting or lack thereof.  Letting Nuke live 'till tomorrow might help us out further into the game, and letting Dorian live might burn us down the road.  Sure, more stuff might come to light that will make Dorian's position clearer if he lives a few more days, but the same can be said for Donut and Pesco, too.  If anything, only the opposite position makes sense - lynching Nuke and letting Dorian live.  After all, Nuke has been really scummy, while Dorian doesn't have much credit either way.

And, as I've said before, we're past the point in the day where prodding people and seeing what pops up, at least on its own, constitutes good scumhunting.  This is the part where we pick which lynch gives the Town the best chances of winning.

Let's get this out there too. My flip has no bearing on what Donut may be. Wagon analysis is all you're going to get.

What exactly do you mean by this?

[WHMZakeri]

Yes yes, I am well aware that I should prepare for the, frankly unlikely, event that Nuke is actually telling the truth. I've already given my theories on what I believe is really happening, so I'm still iffy on the subject. Still, Nuke seems to be trying his hardest to sound and act like a mafioso who doesn't know how to play the game.

I actually agree on the point Carth made on Dorian. Going back to Pesco's crack theory, Dorian's play style really does mimic Wrathie's in that while Wrathie always makes for a good day one lynch no matter what his alignment is, it gradually becomes easier and easier to pick out his motives (Or at least from what I remember my last game as scum, harder and harder to make seem lynchworthy to townies).

Letting Nuke live 'till tomorrow might help us out further into the game, and letting Dorian live might burn us down the road. 

I guess what I'm failing to see is how this is absolutely true enough that we should go through with Nuke's Philosophy on the situation.

but to say "is better to lynch a-good-for-nothing towney than a helpfull-mafioso" goes way too far.

This describes perfectly the Situation we've found ourselves in.

[Pesco]

I expect I'm still prime lynch and would try to clear up the view from my end of the alignment. I know I'm town, Donut could be anything. Get rid of the presuppositions about Donut based on my flip, it's going to be unreliable.

[Affinity]

@Serp:

However, Dorian raised an original point which I feel was not easy to find, which is more than what NF can say, with his useless politicking; and I think that tells us that he has a clear stance and such.  The 'lurking' argument is horrible when you have not judged his posts in anyway.  Also, you don't seem to regard what Dorian says at all, which worries me, and you seem to making use false delimnas to stick your vote onto someone easy to implicate, which does no favours with me.  Yes, he has bad presentation, but there's the content.

[Serp]

I guess what I'm failing to see is how this is absolutely true enough that we should go through with Nuke's Philosophy on the situation.

Please don't conflate my philosophy with Nuke's.  >_>  I'm not saying that it's an absolute truth - if Dorian is town and Nuke is scum, then lynching Dorian and letting Nuke live is a bad idea.  I just think that scumminess of posts needs to be weighted by stuff like roleclaims and activity.  I think that that weighting bumps Nuke below Pesco and Donut as far as lynch priorities, and bumps Dorian above them all.

However, Dorian raised an original point which I feel was not easy to find, which is more than what NF can say, with his useless politicking; and I think that tells us that he has a clear stance and such.  The 'lurking' argument is horrible when you have not judged his posts in anyway.  Also, you don't seem to regard what Dorian says at all, which worries me, and you seem to making use false delimnas to stick your vote onto someone easy to implicate, which does no favours with me.  Yes, he has bad presentation, but there's the content.

There's been nothing for me to directly respond to.  That point you refer to was just another semantic inconsistency of Donut's, and those aren't terribly rare or difficult to pick out.  I'm not trying to present a false dilemma - all I'm saying is that it seems inconsistent to me for you all to give the supposed cop a free ticket due to his possible future utility while also giving the lurker a free ticket despite his likely future liability even on the off chance that he's a townie.

If this player group has a collective flaw, it's that it penalizes effort.  Someone who takes the trouble to post a full justification of his vote and an analysis of every bandwagon and player is just putting out more words, and between those words there will likely be a bunch of little inconsistencies to pick apart, by virtue of the poster's humanity, not his scumminess.  Sure, it works on some level - scum are more likely to break under the pressure, after all.  It's how Roukanken caught the scum Pesco two games ago.  But the question is, did Pesco fail to defend himself because of his scumminess, or did his failure to defend himself have nothing to do with his affiliation?  That's what I have to ask myself when I see this game following the same track.  If I had been a little less eloquent in that game when Roukanken briefly shifted his attention to me, you all would've lynched your cop on the first day.

It's gotten to the point where clamming up and letting the game pass you by, putting out as little effort as possible, has become a viable survival tactic.  By the time the town thinks that the lurker's silence is suspicious, it's LYLO and they have to choose between lynching two or more people, one of whom they have virtually no data on - because that person is a lurker.  I knew that taking this "easy" (lol) route would catch me some flak, especially explaining my train of thought as thoroughly as I did, but I think it's the best path for the town.

Furthermore, I should point out that of what little he's said, a sizable fraction is scummy.  I don't like reiterating points that have already been made, but if I need to point out specific instances myself, you've got the weird defense of Pesco here and giving a pass to Nuke for being suspicious here.  I know it's not a whole lot, but it makes his scummy-statement-to-post ratio the highest here, I think, and shouldn't that be what we're looking at?  His posts could hardly be more scummy without there being more posts to analyze in the first place.

There's your scumhunting.  Go ahead and accuse me of laziness now.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Let's get this out there too. My flip has no bearing on what Donut may be. Wagon analysis is all you're going to get.

Okay, so the fact that you both had the shortest argument ever and then proceeded to simultaneously jump to Kiro is completely irrelevant.
Personally? The fact that you're saying this outright disturbs me, and the fact you feel the need to say it AGAIN afterwards is worse:

I know I'm town, Donut could be anything. Get rid of the presuppositions about Donut based on my flip, it's going to be unreliable.

Defending other players is a scummy action whether the player you're defending is Town or scum.

Natsuhi, wife of Krauss. A jerkass bitch with well-meaning intentions. And I have aspirins for use at night. Aspirins contain salicylic acid and ease headaches, that's all there is to it.

Explains the aspirin reference, but there's also the fact that Natsuhi is a likely suspect for the criminal in Episode 1. So...yeah.

My point on insults should have asked this, is it still scummy of me when I specifically insult Rou or Donut. No real need to answer this further.

I'm intending to answer 'yes' here, simply because insulting players without reason simply makes you look scummy and fails to produce anything useful.

Pesco has Tried to explain his thought process to you several times, and every time you complain about every individual point. He's also tried to stop this argument, which you then sparked another argument over why not explaining himself is scummy. Which, doesn't even apply, because he's been trying to explain himself the whole time.

I'm seriously starting to get sick of repeating this. I didn't accept Pesco's explanation of his thought process because, from what I can tell, none of said thought process was actually present when he made the vote. If I thought Donut was posting like such an idiot that he couldn't be scum, I wouldn't respond to him with 'Good enough for me' because that implies that I actually think he's posting well. This is the point I've been making all day.

Given his running to Pesco's aid, I'm not against a Donut lynch at this point in time. This is gonna probably be my last post before the PC, though - I'll be away for the rest of the day celebrating my 18th. Later, guys.