Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread

[AlexX Unlimited]

Where are you again? If you've got 13F open, farm it for Blue Sabers. If not, 10F has the least annoying enemies. Unless you are faster than the tops, I'd ignore 12F. 11F is just all kinds of meh.

I'll go with floor 10 then, since apparently I'm nowhere near capable of taking on the floor 12 story bosses...

[scherzo]

So, I started looking over my team and am trying to finalize the 12 I want to use for my party.  My five most seriously used characters are currently Remi, Reimu, Marisa, 15F

Spoiler:

Flan

, and 8F

Spoiler:

Sanae

. Also probably keeping their place in my party are Chen, Minoriko, and 10F

Spoiler:

Tenshi

.  The other four spots, and possibly the latter three are pending any suggestions that fellow maidens have to offer.  At this point, character testing is a very tedious process, since I have to allocate 400 levels (which in itself takes a metric assload of time) and invest skill points to get an idea of how certain characters will play out, and I'm sure different players have used different characters and can help by having already researched certain characters that I haven't.  So, if you have any recommendations for characters I've neglected, feel free to make your shout outs.

And yes, I've neglected Patchy.  She's slow as hell and dies if someone so much as sneezes on her, so bleh.

Spoiler:

Try using Kaguya. I find that Buddha's Stone Bowl synergizes well with Flandre; if you can avoid having the pair die instantly, you can sacrifice them and blow a ton of hp off bosses while doing so. Add in Rinnosuke's godly buff + speed buffs to make this strategy even more effective. In general, refilling the active gauge is incredibly useful; I'm sure you can come up with all sorts of strategies making heavy use of it.

I like Eirin as a medic, especially when paired with Komachi. I find Sanae hard to use actually; she's just too squishy and bringing her in and out to heal makes my damage output suffer too much for my liking. Same goes for Minoriko.

[Garlyle]

So can someone explain exactly what's necessary to reach the stairs to 21F?

I'm asking for This Guy's Sake, 'cause he's a cool dude and has been uploading tonnes of videos of the game, but after getting five bloody stars, he still can't access the stairs.

[lumber_of_the_beast]

Question out of curiosity - is anyone working on an Evasion fix?

[Serela]

Question out of curiosity - is anyone working on an Evasion fix?

I think the maker might have intentionally broken evasion and just never bothered to remove it from the game. I mean, otherwise they probably would have fixed it a loooooong time ago.

It sure would change the character balance though, so that would be interesting.

[Pesco]

I think the maker might have intentionally broken evasion and just never bothered to remove it from the game. I mean, otherwise they probably would have fixed it a loooooong time ago.

It sure would change the character balance though, so that would be interesting.

I'm not sure if it would be enough to make Nitori not-useless

[Serela]

I'm not sure if it would be enough to make Nitori not-useless

Nitori has pretty bad EVA growth, so her self-buff wouldn't become much better anyway. Cirno would be much better at living though, and Chen... well, with her self-buff, Chen could be a freaking tank against things that don't have 100% hit chance.

The big change is that suddenly some characters skills have low ACC and some have high to 100% ACC; instead of just their power mattering, you have to start thinking about how often they hit, too. It'd make things a lot more confusing, for one.

[Deranged]

So can someone explain exactly what's necessary to reach the stairs to 21F?

I'm asking for This Guy's Sake, 'cause he's a cool dude and has been uploading tonnes of videos of the game, but after getting five bloody stars, he still can't access the stairs.

I'm pretty sure you don't even need any stars beyond the first (game cleared) to go to floor 21; there's a 3-star barrier 3 steps into floor 21 for the express purpose of keeping people out, so it wouldn't make sense.

Was he not able to see the stairs at all until his friend made the save? All I can think of was that he maybe didn't copy over the plus disk files until after he beat the final boss, in which case he needs to beat the final boss again to activate the stairs. Otherwise, all I can think of is either doing a fresh install of the game, plus disk and 2.04 patch and trying to beat the last boss again, or having his friend make a mad dash to floor 22 where the first relay point of the plus disk is, and see whether he still has problems trying to start from there.

[Serela]

Yeah, he doesn't have the tile that lets you go the stairs; the stair's tile should be accessible before you even beat the game. He should back up his saves, and redownload the game, and make sure he does all the file stuff correctly. Then he can overwrite the save files with his own, and he should be able to access Plus Disk fine.

[Ghaleon]

that floor 21 bug looks weird indeed, sorry no idea.

As for evasion. I would also be interested in how the game plays with it. However there are some issues if it was re-instated. For one, there doesn't seem to be any method of increasing Acc. Spells just have some kind of base. So, as eva goes up more and more and more, and Acc stays the same, I rekon you reach some point where everything pretty much always misses. Either that, or everything misses a frusterating amount of times.

[Serela]

As for evasion. I would also be interested in how the game plays with it. However there are some issues if it was re-instated. For one, there doesn't seem to be any method of increasing Acc. Spells just have some kind of base. So, as eva goes up more and more and more, and Acc stays the same, I rekon you reach some point where everything pretty much always misses. Either that, or everything misses a frusterating amount of times.

Maybe ACC has a level-related base as well? Or did, at least.

And the enemy problem could be easily fixed if it was a problem, although for your own party... yeah, everything would start missing you. I imagine it would be a complicated thing to balance, which, if the EVA breaking was intentional, may have been the reason.

I suppose they could also give the characters a solid EVA stat that doesn't increase (except maybe from equipment), and then it might work out.

[Ghaleon]

Yeah I rekon balancing it wouldn't be difficult in itself, but without an accuracy stat at all. Simply having it fixed in a patch would just be full of problems IMO without adding an accuracy stat too.

[AlexX Unlimited]

I'm not sure if it would be enough to make Nitori not-useless

Try actually using her before saying that. Mine is doing just fine. =V (her failure against the floor 12 crew is my fault and my fault alone)

[Pesco]

Try actually using her before saying that. Mine is doing just fine. =V (her failure against the floor 12 crew is my fault and my fault alone)

Don't wanna waste SKP on her :V

[Serela]

Try actually using her before saying that. Mine is doing just fine. =V (her failure against the floor 12 crew is my fault and my fault alone)

Just wondering, does her nuke outdamage Youmu's Slash of Eternity? I mean, she should be okay against regular trash, but if she does more damage then Youmu then she's a good physical nuker. And you said her nuke does more damage each time you use it (although I have to test this for myself to believe it)

[AlexX Unlimited]

Don't wanna waste SKP on her :V

Fun fact: Apparently I haven't been doing that either. And she's STILL been good. =V

And you said her nuke does more damage each time you use it (although I have to test this for myself to believe it)

My observation turned out to be inaccurate, I'm afraid. It seems the move just has a crit rate or something, because it will randomly do a crapload more damage than normal for seemingly no reason. How often this happens requires more testing from me, which I will do once she and the rest of the team are further up to speed.

As far as random enemies go her two multi-hit attacks get the job done. The CLD-type one is slightly weaker, but it also costs slightly less SP, so it all depends on your personal preferances and enemy weaknesses.

EDIT: As far as it goes against Slash of Eternity... Well, it seems to do more for me, but thats probably because I invested more in her attack than I did for Youmu. However, its still the critical ability that sets it apart. For example, it amazingly managed to do like 10k to skybitch (a fight its apparently a miracle I was able to win), compared to Slash of Eternity's flat-out 0, so that could probably give you an idea right there.

[MysTeariousYukari]

On topic of that "can't get to 21F" glitch I am no pro, but Gar don't you have to beat "that one foe" after getting all 5 stars. I'm not past 12F yet so idk, but that could be 1 sollution, maybe...

Edit:

Spoiler:

The Trio is ripping me apart Whats a good floor to train on? 10F, 11F or 12F? I can beat Reisen, but Eirin and Kaguya just outlast me, and end up winning D:

[Pesco]

Edit:

Spoiler:

The Trio is ripping me apart Whats a good floor to train on? 10F, 11F or 12F? I can beat Reisen, but Eirin and Kaguya just outlast me, and end up winning D:

10F has the least annoying enemies. Unless you are faster than the tops, I'd ignore 12F. 11F is just all kinds of meh.

[trancehime]

Nitori fun facts;

PDLC99MW Electrical Railgun has an 800% ATK mod
PDLC99MW Electrical Railgun is non-elemental
Gensou Explosive Curtain has 5.5x mult
Nitori's ATK stat is above average
Optical Camouflage would be awesome if evade worked

Nitori is not useless

[Pesco]

Is Nitori supposed to be like a physical Marisa then?

[trancehime]

Is Nitori supposed to be like a physical Marisa then?

Nitori's ATK stat growth is far from Marisa MAG level, but it can be helped with twinking.

It is just that the skill she has is really freaking explodey and it does not cost all of her SP. It's actually reasonable for its power. The Railgun cost 88 MP, Exploding Curtain cost 48 MP to hit all target.

[PinocchioFX]

can't defeat bloodstain seal ver.2 in 30F
but can defeat hibachi 2 ver.2.
and can't defeat hibachi 1 ver.2.

Spoiler:

when hibachi 1 ver.2 have low HP i got VERY HIGH DAMAGE(needle parade at 100k+ and 1000 kanon at 200k+)

and fight very loooooooooooong time.
i should keep experience for loooooooong time (to level 600+).

Spoiler:

but in 30F boss ''Yuugi Ver.3'' can hit over 1m damage.

// Marisa
she has

Spoiler:

single-target Master Spark.

And
// Yuka
she has

Spoiler:

multi-target Master Spark.

Spoiler:

but Eiki skill Last Judment(Ignoring Defense) is very good damage.
at 150k atk last judment hit over 1m damage.

Spoil Some Boss Ver.2-3 in 30F
Yuka Ver.2
Eiki Ver.2
Meiling Ver.3
Reisen Ver.3
Tenshi Ver.3
Rinnosuke Ver.3

[Garlyle]

Nitori fun facts;

PDLC99MW Electrical Railgun has an 800% ATK mod
PDLC99MW Electrical Railgun is non-elemental
Gensou Explosive Curtain has 5.5x mult
Nitori's ATK stat is above average
Optical Camouflage would be awesome if evade worked

Nitori is not useless

Not quite.  Nitori's ATK stat is... actually very average.  Her growth is 10; for comparison, she has the same ATK growth as Wriggle,

Spoiler:

Mystia

, and Ran, none of whom are known for their physical attack stat.  15 characters place above her and 21 below her.  The ONLY reason she's got decent damage is that her multipliers are huge.

It's worth noting that Illusionary Waterfall does have a 550% multiplier... but that's only AFTER defense is applied.  Given her low ATK, anything that has any notable defense will basically take nothing from it.  However, Megawatt Linear Gun is a multiplier to the attack, not the final value, so it's made to pierce defenses.

The thing is, while she's got a potential crapload of power, her other stats also are all at best average and at worst below-average, except for having good CLD and NTR stats in the game (But with that said it's only a 160-someodd, even though her CLD is one of the highest).  Even though she can self-buff her DEF and MND, they're still not going to be the kind of thing you'd really count on, but the SPD buff is at least decent because there's not a lot of characters that can SPD-buff that are good for actual offense.

[AlexX Unlimited]

Nitori's ATK stat is... actually very average.
[...]
15 characters place above her and 21 below her.
[...]
Given her low ATK

You're being very inconsistant.

First you say its average.

Then, assuming there's 37 playable characters, your numbers place her above ~60% of the cast, which is slightly above average assuming the characters are split evenly between ones with high and low strength.

Then you say her attack stat is outright bad.

Which is it?

[Garlyle]

You're being very inconsistant.

Firts you say its average.

Then, assuming there's 37 playable characters, your numbers place her above ~60% of the cast, which is slightly above average assuming the characters are split evenly between ones with high and low strength.

Then you say her attack stat is outright bad.

Which is it?

All of the above.

First off, I didn't say EXACTLY average, there is no 'exact' with the way the distribution is (Well, I don't think so, but my guess is that it doesn't average out to a single flat number).  The distribution is actually from a minimum of 2, up to a maximum of 22, but it's not linear at all. (Second-best is 17, best is 22, just to put it in perspective, and who holds these two values should be obvious)
EDIT: On a side note, I think the actual average value, calculated out, would probably be closest to a growth rate of 9... which goes solely to

Spoiler:

Eirin, who doesn't even -use- ATK

Second, she TIES with three characters as well.  So that's 40.  Even still, if she's at '60%'.... that's still within 10% of the 'standard' value.  That's not exceptional either way.

And third, just because her stat growth is actually average for ATK across the entire team... for characters who require ATK exclusively for their damage formulas, Nitori is terrible.  Of the characters who only use ATK, only Chen places lower than Nitori in terms of ATK growth (I may be missing one of the far later characters however).  A few characters who have composite spells, such as Cirno, also have lower ATK when they use the stat, but they've also got MAG as well.

This happens a lot.  A lot of characters are 'average' in a lot of stats... but to be frank that doesn't necessarily mean they're good at them at all.  This is especially the case for ATK and MAG, because a lot of characters rely at least somewhat more on one than the other - that Nitori's reliant stat matches up to a character who barely uses it

Spoiler:

(Ran's Soaring En no Onzo is composite)

should say something.  And unlike the girl she beats - Chen - she can't buff her own ATK and has far longer delays, too.

It really is the fact that her damage multiplier on Megawatt is one of the game's best, that actually makes her notable as a damage-dealer.

[Ghaleon]

You're being very inconsistant.

First you say its average.

Then, assuming there's 37 playable characters, your numbers place her above ~60% of the cast, which is slightly above average assuming the characters are split evenly between ones with high and low strength.

Then you say her attack stat is outright bad.

Which is it?

Well, if you count only the characters that actually use attack as their main multiplier for their skills, her attack stat is pretty bad indeed.

I never thought she was bad myself, nor good. I haven't tried her. Fact is though, her stats for the most part aren't great. Her skills can make up for it though. 800% attack multiplier is like a reuseable master spark! word.


I honestly think that just about every character can be great, you just have to organize the other 11 members you're using accordingly to compliment each other well.

[AlexX Unlimited]

I honestly think that just about every character can be great, you just have to organize the other 11 members you're using accordingly to compliment each other well.

I'd like to think the same, but it looks like most people in this topic seem to disagree, since over the course of the whole thing people keep mentioning how person X makes person Y obsolete as they progress through the game and find various "upgrades" (such as one person pointing out that there's no legitimate reason to use Chen once you get Aya, for example).

[Serela]

(such as one person pointing out that there's no legitimate reason to use Chen once you get Aya, for example).

Other then the fact that Chen has a self-buff to double her attack and her Flight of Idaten has INSANELY low delay. She can switch out before she gets hit, and her SP recovers very fast. Reimu lv140 and Chen is my best damage dealer by far.

Not counting MASTER SPARK but thats obvious.

[AlexX Unlimited]

Other then the fact that Chen has a self-buff to double her attack and her Flight of Idaten has INSANELY low delay.

Aya can do roughly the same thing with many of her spells. She can't up her strength so much, but she has far higher strength growth and can up her speed even more than anything Chen can reach.

She can switch out before she gets hit, and her SP recovers very fast.

So does Aya. On both counts.

EDIT: I'd like to point out right now that my Chen has had the most skill points invested in her and I'm not about to drop her just because people tell me she's inferior. Kinda like Nitori, except nobody on my team has all that great SKP levels invested in them, so... yeah...

[Ghaleon]

There's a very good reason to have chen over Aya... Chen's attacks do physical damage, Aya's do wind. If someone for some reason doesn't have much physical dpsers in their setup like remilia,yuugi,etc. Having Chen would be the superior choice to aya IMO.