Communication Breakdance (Game Over! Town win)

[WHMZakeri]

Every player has now confirmed. Please enjoy the rest of your day.

Which is 28 hours long, right now.

[Serp]

I find it weird that after everything that has been pointed out between your 141 and 182, your position hasn't changed not even a little bit, and on top of it, you haven't commented about it.

What was there to change my position?  His 164 was just pointing out a weird word choice by umu, his 167 is just excuses and non-scumhunting stuff, and...  there's really nothing of substance beyond that.  This is something that was pointed out to me last game - that asking lots and lots of questions is not by itself a towntell.  It can be a distracting tactic by scum to try and cast a lot of doubt around and get the attention away from themselves without actually committing to anything.

This is on top of his early conduct.  My initial vote wasn't much more than a prod based on an unusual move, but the way he tried to justify it after the fact sealed it for me.  I don't think he went through all this reasoning about bringing the town out of RVS and WIFOMing scum and such, so he's artificially justifying his move after the fact, and that can't be called "merely" anti-town.  I was distracted by the attacks on my initial vote and the scumhunting philosophy discussion, so I didn't point this out explicitly, but Suwako's point was what reaffirmed my vote on KGH.

On that subject, I'd like all you people who are making a huge distinction between anti-town behavior and scummy behavior to explain just what qualifies as a genuine scumtell to you.  Without any flips to analyze, the only ones I can think of off the top of my head is prioritizing your own survival above scumhunting.

Anyway, regarding Zengar, factoring in newbie meta makes me think his vote on me looks more townie than scum.  Newbscum would probably jump on the other big wagon, or at the very least pull an OMGUS.  This point is extremely subject to WIFOM, but it's worthy of consideration.  I'm still strongly preferring a KGH lynch over a Zengar one.  I also realize that I've been overlooking Chen's lurking so far.  If Chen continues to establish himself as a lurker, count me as favoring a Chen lynch over a Zengar lynch, but below a KGH lynch.

Yay! The three kittens are here! (also, that would be an AWESOME name for a bar)

A strip club, maybe.

[Kiro]

Couldn't address this the last time:

I meant that I could change my vote to Zengar at anytime, so he should consider me having a vote on him.

Don't like this statement. Put your vote on him, or don't say anything. You have some decent content, like pressing KGH to come to a conclusion and stick with it rather than just pecking at every little thing he sees like a game hen. But a lot of offhand things you say are pinging my scumdar. Since you do seem to be trying to decide which one of KGH or Zengar is worse right now, I'd like a more definitive confirmation of who you're set to vote for on your next post or if anyone else comes up.

---

Zengar, For your explanation in #210, you're just guessing there was enough in that span of 40 posts to get Serp to change his mind about KGH. I didn't see any improvement until KGH's #167, but it was still minor at that point so perhaps it wasn't enough yet. After the fact... maybe. But I'll see what Serp says.

Cut by Serp: Ah there it is. Well, your opinion about KGH over Zengar is ok. It's contrary to what Zengar thinks so I'd like to see Zengar's response.

[Cabble]

Please give me a while to respond. Too much jibberish going on in such little time.

Also, I get to have 2 games with kitten4u. Yay.

[UncertainJakutten]

Please give me a while to respond. Too much jibberish going on in such little time.

Also, I get to have 2 games with kitten4u. Yay.

MS as well? This is getting fun

That's nothing. Right now I'm in another game that's being moderated by this girl.

[UncertainJakutten]

Please give me a while to respond. Too much jibberish going on in such little time.

Also, I get to have 2 games with kitten4u. Yay.

MS as well? This is getting fun

That's nothing. Right now I'm in another game that's being moderated by this girl.

Who is she?

[Zengar Zombolt]

I'd like to see Zengar's response.

I'm going to wait Chen's post so I can adress both things at the same time. Is that okay with you?

[Suwako Moriya]

'rampant agreement'? uh if you're calling agreeing on early day one stuff rampant, I'd hate to see what 'tepid' is. Only so many stances to take on stuff, sooooo.

Don't like Zengar talking about roles or listing opinions on everyone. Feeling him to be kinda newbtown at the moment though. More interested in people bouncing between Hen and Zengar. Both are acting dumb more than anything, on reflection. Would still go for a Hen lynch. But...

UU and UK have both switched back and forth. Don't like UK much for trying to choose between Kilga and Zengar and then picking Zengar, that's a weaksauce choice and he's obviously easier to prey upon. Don't like her bringing up meaningless points. Don't like her talking so much and still essentially going for 'yep lynch the people who can't play'.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Uncertainkitten

[UncertainJakutten]

Uh huh. Yes, I used the more useful argument. There's also the fact that we have less than a day left. Do you HONESTLY think anyone will buy into a kilga lynch that quickly? The prevailing attitude would imply that's not so to me. I have to accept Zengar over Kilga for the time being.

Don't like her talking so much and still essentially going for 'yep lynch the people who can't play'.

I don't like you not reading and realizing it's quite a bit more than that.

'rampant agreement'? uh if you're calling agreeing on early day one stuff rampant, I'd hate to see what 'tepid' is. Only so many stances to take on stuff, sooooo.

hmm?

[Cabble]

I'd like to see Zengar's response.

I'm going to wait Chen's post so I can adress both things at the same time. Is that okay with you?

You should go ahead and say it right now. I probably won't be back on until noon tomorrow.

[UncertainJakutten]

sleepy time. Try to avoid lynching me in my absence

[Suwako Moriya]

...less than a day? We have, what, twenty-seven hours to go? Surely that is plenty of time to not lynch bad people for being bad, what are you talking about :/

You don't actually have cases or arguments to actually read, which is compounding the issue. That is, posts of 'I read all their posts and omgz look at all these catchphrases I can apply to them' aren't really cases.

Going "I must choose between (bad person) and (good person who I claim to find suspicious)" looks pretty stupid.

[Nachtwanderlied]

To answer Sodium: My main suspicion is on UK. Despite common belief, the vote never left  :V

My main qualm is that her so-called analysis. She backs up her observations and claims with... nothing. Why exactly did you get off the Senitrain? Why was Kilga scummy? And lastly, why claim that Zengar was the more useful arguement when you had no arguement at all?

Vote still stands on UK. Opinions on S-Moriya and others coming tomorrow.

[Zengar Zombolt]

You should go ahead and say it right now. I probably won't be back on until noon tomorrow.

FFFFFFF- Okay then.

Cut by Serp: Ah there it is. Well, your opinion about KGH over Zengar is ok. It's contrary to what Zengar thinks so I'd like to see Zengar's response.

Well, while I see your points, I maintain my vote on you. Why? Because of your position in Hen not scumhunting. You see, when you're pressed so early, the first ting that comes to mind is to remove some pressure off yourself. While scumhunting efficiently is an excellent way to do this, justifying your actions is also somewhat valid, if suspicious. Maybe I may be wrong of using newbie meta on him, but given that I'm not the only one to do so, then I'm willing to believe it.

[?q]

I also realize that I've been overlooking Chen's lurking so far.

No access counts as lurking?

Please give me a while to respond. Too much jibberish going on in such little time.

Also, I get to have 2 games with kitten4u. Yay.

MS as well? This is getting fun

That's nothing. Right now I'm in another game that's being moderated by this girl.

Who is she?

I believe Zukari was referring to being in a game modded by you.

Also, Chen is a human-eating monster.  Remember that.

I'm glad I'm not the only person seeing SP as scum who's not quite sure what to do with this game. *reading Kiro's post* 
##Unvote: Hizengar Byakuren
##Vote: Ex NaO₂ (L-6)

UU and UK have both switched back and forth.

Um... no, I've only switched forth.  From my random vote.  Try again.

[Cabble]

I also realize that I've been overlooking Chen's lurking so far.

No access counts as lurking?

My dad got remarried.

But then his fiance died on the way to the wedding.

[Kilgamayan]

Chen, may I suggest you find a replacement? Or do you wish to continue to give yourself something to keep you mind on?

UK, I'd like an explanation of why you slap the IIoA label on my 155 when it's six opinions right in a row, the last four of which are pretty clearly opinions (_____ suspicious for _______) even if people couldn't read between the lines on the first two.

Despite earlier leeway, Seniwac bothers me by doing little besides ask questions, and then by presenting a case against me and putting an onus on UK to say something about it instead of actually following up on it himself. I may have to rethink the Remix comparison. Seniwac: I want to see less ? from you and more "I think _____ is scum because _________". Asking questions does not give us your opinions.

Zengar's Serp vote is founded on some very shaky ground - that Seniwac made himself look better over the course of the day. I would guess that Serp did not comment on Seniwac because he disagrees with the notion that Seniwac got better as the game went on (and quite possibly feels Seniwac got worse). I tend to do this myself.

Aha, and that is indeed how Serp feels.

Voting staying on Zengar. The scummy approach to the Seniwac situation is still the worst thing I've seen all game.

---

I've noticed an issue with my recent games that I'd like to resolve right now, for the sake of clarity. I have recently adopted a posting style where I don't actually write what I feel are obvious conclusions (if I don't think a conclusion I've reached is too obvious then I'll post it). I do this because I feel like people shouldn't be insulted by spoon-feeding them - you're all (theoretically) intelligent enough to see where I'm going with such points. Apparently this isn't working.

Do people want me to start spoon-feeding them my conclusions? I don't like doing it because I see it as pretty damn condescending but if there's really as much confusion about what I'm saying as there appears to be I'll do it.

[Kilgamayan]

No, fuck YOU, AutoSmilies.

[Kilgamayan]

Oh hey, Zengar's Serp vote evolved. Not sure why Zengar thinks Seniwac is scumhunting when all he's doing is asking questions. Very not sure how Zengar can feel this so strongly as to vote someone for thinking Seniwac isn't scumhunting.

[Suwako Moriya]

So it was a random vote. Ok, whatever, full steam ahead on UK.

[Kiro]

Zengar: I have no idea what you're saying in your #253.

You see, when you're pressed so early, the first ting that comes to mind is to remove some pressure off yourself. While scumhunting efficiently is an excellent way to do this, justifying your actions is also somewhat valid, if suspicious. Maybe I may be wrong of using newbie meta on him, but given that I'm not the only one to do so, then I'm willing to believe it.

When you say "you," are you referring to Serp specifically or a figurative "you"? A person should do both scumhunting and justifying their actions when questioned about them. There is nothing extraordinarily suspicious about the latter; everyone has to justify their actions or reasoning in Mafia. And how should you using newbie meta (on KGH I assume?) affect what Serp thinks? In essence, I have no idea how this paragraph has justified your vote.

So to make your response to my concerns a little easier: what is wrong with Serp not going off of KGH in the span of #140~#180 when you even see/understand his reasoning?

---

To Suwako regarding UK: Yea, she's pretty talkative, but I do think her points are reasonable. I always cringe when people want to rattle off scumpair suspicions so early, but it's a null tell. She does have an early enough suspicion of Zengar in #188 (but then again, several people do anyways) as well. I don't think her choosing Zengar over Kilga just on ease of lynchability (even if she admits it herself) is enough to be worth voting her on because the case and her points on Zengar are fair.

KGH: Not sure I'm following why your questions in #252 haven't been addressed already by UK's previous replies. I'm sure she'll reply to you more properly in the morning though.

---

Do people want me to start spoon-feeding them?

I have a confession to make. I've always had a fetish of being spoonfed by Kilga a Forever 21 Yama. Oh baby, dallop that righteous justice onto your spoony instrument and shove it in my face!

...
...
...

In all seriousness, do it Kilga. I don't interpret innuendos very well. Condescend me. The Goddess of Makai probably deserves it. And see above regarding Seniwac. He might have trouble interpreting your replies correctly with the way he's just questioning, but not analyzing as much. And this section now makes up a solid 1/3 of this post. You should be honored Kilga. Also, I don't have a problem with your posts so far.

[Pesco]

Suwako Mafiya still hasn't answered my 3 Ys from my big post. Looking hot for scummy now.

Being spoonfed explanations should be a given. If not, why do you guys always say I'm being obscure? Blerrie idiots are afraid to think for themselves.

I feel Orange should have notified us of being away for an event beforehand. Since no replacing was asked for, I want to see more than delay posts.

With the amount if time left, we should be consolidating our lynches. Making bigger posts when I get home.

[WHMZakeri]

The "Mod should probably put more effort on flavor" Votecount

EX Na2O2 (L-6): Pesco, Uµ
Suwako J. Moriya (L-7): Kiro
Kiro (L-7): Suwako J. Moriya
uµ(L-7):  Khorneish Game Hen
Khorneish Game Hen(L-4): uµ, Serpentarius, Uncertain Kitten, Suwako J. Moriya, Kitten4u, Ex Na2O2
Hizengar Byakuren (L-3): Kilgamayan, Uµ, Kiro, Kilgamayan, Pesco, Uncertain Kitten
Pesco (L-7): EX Na2O2, Kilgamayan
Edible (L-7): Kitten4u
Kilgamayan (L-7):Hizengar Byakuren
UncertainKitten (L-5): UncertainKitten, Ex Na2O2, Khorneish Game Hen, Suwako J. Moriya
Serpentarius (L-6): Suwako J. Moriya, Uµ, hizengar Byakuren

God this must be confusing to look at... Here.

EX Na2O2 (L-6): Uµ
Khorneish Game Hen(L-4): Serpentarius, Kitten4u, Ex Na2O2
Hizengar Byakuren (L-3):  Kiro, Kilgamayan, Pesco, Uncertain Kitten
UncertainKitten (L-5):  Khorneish Game Hen, Suwako J. Moriya
Serpentarius (L-6): Hizengar Byakuren

Not voting: Chen Yakumo, Edible?

There are just a little over 22 hours left in the day

[Kitten4u]

@Kitten4u:  Tonsillectomy?

No, I have ulcers and since nothing I was doing seemed to be helping they decided to take another look at my stomach.  Sadly, I ended up being KOed longer than expected (or rather I woke up on time, but was so tired after that I literally went to bed at 2 PM).  On the bright side I now have nifty, full color pictures of the inside of my stomach.

Also, I get to have 2 games with kitten4u. Yay.

Wait, who are you? o:

Real post will come in a bit because I haven't eaten in like a day and a half and I'm starving now.

[Kitten4u]

Okay, so here's why I think KGH is scum.

1.) I'll start with the big one.  Post 126, more specifically this:

And what is there to say that scum won't make another mistake?

"[...]that scum won't make another mistake.  That implies that scum has already made a mistake, and I only saw one thing that would qualifty as a mistake in the early parts of the game, and that's post 72 AKA his claim (and according to him that is indeed what he was refering to).  In other words, I think he slipped and basically called himself scum.  The fact that he called my question loaded when I was using his words isn't making me feel any better about him either.

tl;dr I think he slipped and basically claimed scum

2.) I doubt I need to say too much about the beginning of the game, but there's one thing that's seriously bugging me.  He intentionally ended RVS with his claim, but between the time he claimed and the time he told us the purpose of the claim he acted like a newbie and asked questions that a newbie would ask (it's important to note that these were just questions on theory and did nothing to help with scum hunting).  It sounds like he was trying to make himself seem more newbieish than he was because hiding behind "I didn't know, I'm a newbie" is really, really easy.  He isn't even striking me as newbieish either.

tl;dr he lied.

3.) In the later parts of the game he actually decides to start pretending to scum hunt!  Posts like this are not helpful.  He started asking some decent questions (particularly when it came to UK), but he never really said anything about them. That and a large amount of his questions seem like he's asking questions to make it look like he's trying to scum hunt instead of asking good questions that would let him analyze people.  I even feel like his case on UK is pretty weak, and it does not explain why he was suspicous of her earlier in the game (assuming that unbolded unvote wasn't actually meant to be an unvote).

tl;dr it looks like he's trying to make himself look town without doing any real scum hunting.

---

I'd like to see some actual analysis from you KGH.  Outlining your entire case (including why you were suspicious of her at the beginning) would be a great place to start.

[Suwako Moriya]

Zak: I'm totally voting for uncertainkitten.

So you were. Fixed.

[UncertainJakutten]

Going "I must choose between (bad person) and (good person who I claim to find suspicious)" looks pretty stupid.

Wait what? No, seriously, you think one of Kilga and Zengar is good?

Bullshit

...less than a day? We have, what, twenty-seven hours to go? Surely that is plenty of time to not lynch bad people for being bad, what are you talking about :/

Then I thought a longer time had passed since Chen confirmed. Sorry. That's still pretty damn close to less than a day

You don't actually have cases or arguments to actually read, which is compounding the issue. That is, posts of 'I read all their posts and omgz look at all these catchphrases I can apply to them' aren't really cases.

Except, yanno, you must have, like, not read the posts because they PRETTY CLEARLY show how some people are more likely to be scum.

Yanno, I'm just going to assume this was a joke post. Anyone with an intelligence score above three who read my posts couldn't possibly believe themselves posting this.

My main qualm is that her so-called analysis. She backs up her observations and claims with... nothing. Why exactly did you get off the Senitrain? Why was Kilga scummy? And lastly, why claim that Zengar was the more useful arguement when you had no arguement at all?

huh? Um, Kilga was scummy for IIoA. I fucking said that. Senitrain, upon a reread of seniwac SHOWS he becomes a lot more useful in the later portions of the day and less anti town. He made a mistake initially. And Zengar is just...bad. I'm more sure of Zengar than Kilga, but it was a hard choice since Kilga really should know better.

I believe Zukari was referring to being in a game modded by you.

He's in SSK's subgame. Not mine

UK, I'd like an explanation of why you slap the IIoA label on my 155 when it's six opinions right in a row, the last four of which are pretty clearly opinions (_____ suspicious for _______) even if people couldn't read between the lines on the first two.

I'll reread it, but I know what I read wasn't a solid opinion or even really much analysis.

I have a confession to make. I've always had a fetish of being spoonfed by Kilga a Forever 21 Yama. Oh baby, dallop that righteous justice onto your spoony instrument and shove it in my face!

You spoony bard!

Kitten 264: I like that catch on the slip
2 was a point I was stuck on myself...
Point 3 is rather good as well especially given the fact I've never seen an actual case from him concerning me...hmm...

Damn I'm torn. That's quite a good case on seni but I got good vibes from him lately (with the exception of his last post about having a case on me about non explanation...). I also feel Kilga or Zengar would be a better play...

I guess I'll pull a umu and say that people on the KGH wagon probably aren't that bad looking, but I lean more stupid town at the moment. But, I would like him to actually follow up his questioning with results within, say, his next three posts. Another one of those posts should be a fully explained case on me.

Suwako, from him I expect an actual case not riddles with easily deflated points that even a child could defeat because they flat out aren't true.

[Pesco]

Suwako still pisses me off for not answering my questions. Reading his posts in isolation, I don't see any scumhunting at all. #247 might be telling of a connection to Zengar.

[?q]

Do people want me to start spoon-feeding them my conclusions? I don't like doing it because I see it as pretty damn condescending but if there's really as much confusion about what I'm saying as there appears to be I'll do it.

Sounding condescending never stopped me from saying anything, and people tell me so more or less all the time.
'Doesn't seem to be stopping some others ITT either.

Condescend me. The Goddess of Makai probably deserves it.

Mima fully approves of this statement.

On the bright side I now have nifty, full color pictures of the inside of my stomach.

That almost sounds interesting enough to be worth the ordeal.  Except... well, not.
(I'm told I'll get ulcers later.  Thanks for the advance warning of what I may wind up going through...)

I feel Orange should have notified us of being away for an event beforehand. Since no replacing was asked for, I want to see more than delay posts.

By not confirming I think it can be inferred that Chen didn't have the ability to notify anyone.
In addition, I don't understand why people are telling Chen to replace since that will only stall input from him further.

I guess I'll pull a umu

Once again, moe or me?

Unfortunately, each time I see the abbreviation K4U I have traumatic flashbacks to this. 
I have no words to describe this feeling, but most of them would be stronger than "unpleasant".

---

---Kitten4u point 1:  Reading this quote in context...

As for data gathered, the idea is, if you WERE a townie doing something scummy to get us out of RVS, you just took a bullet for scum fucking up by accident.

And what is there to say that scum won't make another mistake?

I think I can see how this would not be a slip - add "later, if not in the RVS" to the end.  In other words, what Heniwac said in 185.
---Kitten4u point 2:  While he asked why claiming early is bad, Heniwac never claimed to be a newb until 118:

And how did this thrash the newbie excuse? Would an experienced player admit that consciously?

(The answer, btw, is yes)
So there may be something here.
---Kitten4u point 3:  I disagree on the first linked post for reasons mentioned already.  The second post you linked is weak, but I don't factor it highly in my read tbh.  Judgment call.

I'm disagree with your case, but I think it's reasoned enough that it reflects well on you.

-----

Also, I see that Sodium's (in the 90s IIRC) vote on UK was for the same reasons as Serp's nonvoting suspicion that I hated earlier.  Mmm, connections.

-----

I can look over SJMoriya while I'm here.

I really don't buy his flip on KGH in 114.  The logic breaks down in "I can't believe that was a conscious Townie decision" when he just got done saying it was.  I think I can see a possible logic bridge there, but I'll leave SJMoriya to explain that one for me.

After that, I don't see him until this page.  I don't know what he's referencing with "rampant agreement", but if it's an accusation against SJM, I would have to disagree.

Naming me as someone who has flipped back and forth is pretty insulting.  Similarly, isn't that what he did himself in that post?

And... that's all he's said unless I missed something.

I disapprove, but it's not enough to take me off of ScumiumPeroxide as of nao.

[UncertainJakutten]

Once again, moe or me?

Unfortunately, each time I see the abbreviation K4U I have traumatic flashbacks to this. 

You. And Gpop will sue kill.