Author Topic: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival [last updated 2015-4-6]  (Read 50887 times)

chum

Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #90 on: June 11, 2014, 07:35:29 AM »
My Touhouwiki example is being conveniently ignored, it seems.

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Replays

Tons of these replays were deleted by their original uploaders, but guess what, they are still documented on the wiki. Why? Because this is what a wikipedia is supposed to do, document things. You can't copyright a replay. If you uploaded it at some point, people will have downloaded it. If you delete it, no matter what your reasons are, in no way will this affect what other people do with your replay. People could upload your replays elsewhere without even knowing you don't want them to. Is it still immoral?

If you are so adamant that replays shouldn't be uploaded by others under any circumstances (that seems to be what the issue boils down to in the end) then perhaps you should go ask all the wiki pages to take down all the replays they are hosting. Good luck.

Lepetit89

  • Deranged Collector
Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #91 on: June 11, 2014, 08:02:29 AM »
My Touhouwiki example is being conveniently ignored, it seems.

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Replays

Tons of these replays were deleted by their original uploaders, but guess what, they are still documented on the wiki. Why? Because this is what a wikipedia is supposed to do, document things. You can't copyright a replay. If you uploaded it at some point, people will have downloaded it. If you delete it, no matter what your reasons are, in no way will this affect what other people do with your replay. People could upload your replays elsewhere without even knowing you don't want them to. Is it still immoral?

If you are so adamant that replays shouldn't be uploaded by others under any circumstances (that seems to be what the issue boils down to in the end) then perhaps you should go ask all the wiki pages to take down all the replays they are hosting. Good luck.

Sorry, I forgot about that example; was in a bit of a hurry.

Anyway, seeing how this is not the only instance in which the Touhouwiki conveniently disregards basic morals and common sense in favour of attracting viewers in its quest for documentation, I find it hard to believe that a Wiki, especially the Touhouwiki, can be considered even remotely fit to provide us with moral guidelines.

The fact that the Wiki does it does not necessarily make it right. Of course, this depends on personal opinion as well, but the way I see it, if you want to upload someone else's work, whether it's a picture, music, a translation based on their work or a replay, you ought to ask them first - it is you who wants something from them, not the other way round. If you cannot get in touch with them, then it's off-limits, to me at least. That's what I deem respectful. If someone does not want his replay or anything else to be circulated, then I can only respect that.

Personally, I find it somewhat frightening to completely disregard any control over anything I might upload to the internet. I'd wager that this might have discouraging effects as well, so I prefer treating others the way I would want to be treated, and I would expect people to allow me to change my mind regarding the publication of a replay.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 08:25:03 AM by Lepetit89 »

chum

Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #92 on: June 11, 2014, 10:01:49 AM »
Asking a non-English speaker if it's alright to upload their replay is just awkwardly wasting their time. I think there's such a thing as trying to be too respectful and I think that applies to this situation. Holding back on uploading these NMNB runs for the reasons provided is, in my book, simply ridiculous. There's a difference between video game replays, something that's meant to be watched, noticed and learned from and which is not of any significance to anyone who doesn't own the game the replay playbacks on, and someone's musical piece or the like.

You're on a slippery slope right now. How about that avatar that you're using. That's a picture someone made, did you ask them for their permission to use that? (Maybe it's your own picture, but you get the idea) You'll probably think that I'm using a ridiculous and extreme example right now, but if you believe strongly enough in your own logic, you will eventually reach the conclusion that no, it is disrespectful to use their picture without asking them first. There are instances where you can and should apply this logic and I think applying it to a replay that has already been publicly shared is going too far. If It's about a replay that was privately shared then I could understand if someone wouldn't want it spread around, though.

Szayelaporro Granz

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Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #93 on: June 11, 2014, 10:30:03 AM »
Pretty much what chum said. I don't understand why some people are so protective with their own things they shared on internet, especially when they are meant to be shared to everyone. Unless of course, you openly said not to distribute it without credits or someone claims your stuff as his/hers. I think everyone is smart enough to know whatever may happen when they bring something into public.
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Lepetit89

  • Deranged Collector
Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #94 on: June 11, 2014, 10:57:15 AM »
Pretty much what chum said. I don't understand why some people are so protective with their own things they shared on internet, especially when they are meant to be shared to everyone. Unless of course, you openly said not to distribute it without credits or someone claims your stuff as his/hers. I think everyone is smart enough to know whatever may happen when they bring something into public.

Of course, people are smart enough to know that whatever they uploaded won't magically vanish if they take the original source down. However, that doesn't mean that it's okay to keep circulating it. It may be the norm, but that doesn't necessarily make it okay; I'm sure there are plenty formerly teenaged females who can confirm that (though that would be a more extreme case, of course).

Asking a non-English speaker if it's alright to upload their replay is just awkwardly wasting their time. I think there's such a thing as trying to be too respectful and I think that applies to this situation. Holding back on uploading these NMNB runs for the reasons provided is, in my book, simply ridiculous. There's a difference between video game replays, something that's meant to be watched, noticed and learned from and which is not of any significance to anyone who doesn't own the game the replay playbacks on, and someone's musical piece or the like.

You're on a slippery slope right now. How about that avatar that you're using. That's a picture someone made, did you ask them for their permission to use that? (Maybe it's your own picture, but you get the idea) You'll probably think that I'm using a ridiculous and extreme example right now, but if you believe strongly enough in your own logic, you will eventually reach the conclusion that no, it is disrespectful to use their picture without asking them first. There are instances where you can and should apply this logic and I think applying it to a replay that has already been publicly shared is going too far. If It's about a replay that was privately shared then I could understand if someone wouldn't want it spread around, though.

That's a picture of my dead cat, you hippie-communist.

Just kidding, though it really is my dead cat; died a little more than four years ago.

Regarding that conclusion you mention - that is the exact conclusion I arrived at a few years ago, which is why I refrain from using pictures without authorization, linking to their source instead of directly linking them etc. etc. .

I don't believe there is such a thing as being too respectful; some things may have become common on the internet, but, as I said before, I don't believe that makes them right.
I do agree that replays are different from other copyrighted material. However, it is not mine to question why someone would no longer want their replay to be circulated. It could be because they don't want to spread a strategy, because they're ashamed of a mistake - any reason, really. Someone went through the work of creating the replay and they don't want it shared anymore - I oblige.

Granted, I understand that my stance regarding this whole matter might be considered extreme because there is a certain convenience to disregarding other people's feelings, no matter how minuscule the issue may seem. It is for that exact reason that certain behaviour is being deemed okay on the internet (that and, regarding more serious issues, some people being inconsiderate scoundrels, of course) when it's not, but people should be aware of the environment they create. I don't feel that this convenience is worth the price that the people who do upload their works have to pay.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 11:05:03 AM by Lepetit89 »

Jirachi

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Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #95 on: June 11, 2014, 12:04:32 PM »
Quote
TouhouWiki stuff

Actually that Replays page uses Royalflare links that are totally deletable (at least IN is, because the others have the History page). TouhouWiki does have the morals of not re-uploading to Royalflare, and that's enough (you shouldn't upload a replay there that isn't yours in first place, Gensokyo doesn't really matters since people both don't care, and the staff there is nearly non-existent. Wikis are meant to document thing is in an organized way, and archive what is necessary (see High Scores page). And what about Archive.org, is it immoral? Many of GIL's replays were kept thanks to it.

Btw to save Mino's work I just added the whole OP to archive.org so it would archive all stuff directly linked (Royalflare), and archived the few Gensokyo.org replays too, manually by opening them (I forgot I could do that when I started this). The ux.getuploader replays are still "unsafe" though, so I archived them here. The Replays wiki page was already autoarchived, but it looks broken as fuck in Archive.org, but I couldn't do anything about it since it was already archived. But the replays are safe at least.
Spoiler:
lol at the archiveception on GIL's replays
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 12:52:09 PM by Jirachi »

chum

Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #96 on: June 11, 2014, 12:13:20 PM »
I would think that most people would want stuff they uploaded to be spread around in cases like this. Not in the case of personal or commercial material, of course, but a video game replay?

Anyway, at least you realize that your issue here is entirely moral and a little bit on the extreme side. I would totally have been with you if it had been about something else, like someone's personal photo album...

Lepetit89

  • Deranged Collector
Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #97 on: June 11, 2014, 01:31:03 PM »
Actually that Replays page uses Royalflare links that are totally deletable (at least IN is, because the others have the History page). TouhouWiki does have the morals of not re-uploading to Royalflare, and that's enough (you shouldn't upload a replay there that isn't yours in first place, Gensokyo doesn't really matters since people both don't care, and the staff there is nearly non-existent. Wikis are meant to document thing is in an organized way, and archive what is necessary (see High Scores page). And what about Archive.org, is it immoral? Many of GIL's replays were kept thanks to it.
[/spoiler]

Archive.org is an interesting example, actually, as distinguishing between things that were intentionally and inadvertently deleted (or lost) is necessary in order to assess whether preservation would be immoral or not. However, if it can be used to retrieve sites that were intentionally deleted, then it is, as far as I am concerned, a useful tool that can be misused, though I'm not exactly familiar with the principles of the website.

Nonetheless, I don't quite understand how the way Touhou Wiki handles reuploads improves the situation since they still openly provide the replays. Since they make note of reuploads being prohibited, I assume that there are deleted ones among them, which is exactly why it's an issue. Why they would opt for anything but simply linking to wherever the player uploaded his replay and noting the score is beyond me.

I would think that most people would want stuff they uploaded to be spread around in cases like this. Not in the case of personal or commercial material, of course, but a video game replay?

Anyway, at least you realize that your issue here is entirely moral and a little bit on the extreme side. I would totally have been with you if it had been about something else, like someone's personal photo album...

I'd wager they would stop being interested in their stuff being spread around once they delete the original source. As above, if people simply linked to the original source, it would be no issue, but anything else is questionable, regardless of what kind of file we're talking about it.

Edit: Nonetheless, if I recall correctly, we already established that we simply have widely differing ideas of moral and immoral in this context, so let's just leave it at that, as I doubt that either side is going to be convinced.
I understand your desire to archive these things, I just happen to have different priorities that I would not wish to sacrifice at the expense of others.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 01:41:02 PM by Lepetit89 »

Mino ☆

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Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #98 on: July 01, 2014, 03:12:32 PM »
gatsguts got UFO LNNN.

Ranko Hoshino

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Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #99 on: August 07, 2014, 10:32:50 PM »
Hayamin's PCB Reimu B run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZttB9lAT_jw

Nishibi's PCB Marisa A run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJcMdpWiDUw

Rori's PCB Marisa B run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqMARIgNzzE

I would've recorded the Marisa runs sooner, but I had to wait a little while before I could get a new computer.
Currently needing to do more Touhou stuff
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Mino ☆

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Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #100 on: August 12, 2014, 03:57:24 PM »
Updated.

Ranko Hoshino

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Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #101 on: August 13, 2014, 08:47:50 PM »
I don't see any new video links in the first post.
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Oh

Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #102 on: August 13, 2014, 10:43:59 PM »
(?・ω・`)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2014, 11:45:28 PM by dxk »

Jirachi

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Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #103 on: August 13, 2014, 11:37:18 PM »
He meant replays.
On another note, I don't see why you would record other people's runs, it just seems weird to me.

For many people it's more convenient than downloading the replay into your game. This topic is for showcase after all.

Ranko Hoshino

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Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #104 on: August 13, 2014, 11:48:02 PM »
He meant replays.
On another note, I don't see why you would record other people's runs, it just seems weird to me.
I wasn't exactly thinking about the single new replay, and it's probably because all that was said was "Updated".

I like recording these replays because want to help with showcasing them, making it easier to view them.
Currently needing to do more Touhou stuff
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Oh

Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #105 on: August 14, 2014, 02:03:18 AM »
(?・ω・`)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2014, 11:45:01 PM by dxk »

Ghost

  • Fluke dodging is the best tactic.
Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #106 on: August 14, 2014, 07:28:15 AM »
If people really cared they would watch the replay instead.
Have listed replays is fine for showcasing, but videos are a bit too much imo.

People who actually want to study the replays would download them.
But I can see how some people would just want to watch the vid of them instead.

Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #107 on: August 14, 2014, 11:28:21 AM »
Yeah, if there's an option between the two, I would usually pick the video. A lot more convenient in my opinion, for several reasons.

Jirachi

  • Wish Maker
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Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #108 on: August 14, 2014, 11:51:08 AM »
If people really cared they would watch the replay instead.
Have listed replays is fine for showcasing, but videos are a bit too much imo.

How would having a video link be a bother? It's just another link you can choose not to click.

Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #109 on: August 14, 2014, 06:08:53 PM »
I personally watch the replay because of visual quality (and connection issues), but both ways have their advantages: you can slow down replays, but videos let you go back to a certain portion without starting the run over, for example.

Also, you could want to watch a particular run and not have the game to watch it on replay

Things I've done (and maybe will improve):
SA L6MNB | SA Lunatic 3b Scorerun | MoF LNB | PCB LNB |DDC LNB

Esper

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Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #110 on: August 15, 2014, 05:45:07 PM »
How would having a video link be a bother? It's just another link you can choose not to click.

I think he's referring to the idea that it's 40 minutes of trouble to record/render a 30-minute run and overall not worth it when people are gonna watch the replay anyway.
My profile picture is whimsy until I feel like adding something else.

Enjoy.

Jirachi

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Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #111 on: August 15, 2014, 09:29:33 PM »
I think he's referring to the idea that it's 40 minutes of trouble to record/render a 30-minute run and overall not worth it when people are gonna watch the replay anyway.

This doesn't really make sense. Mino himself doesn't record, Wriggle didn't record either. It's either the player or someone else (usually Ranko) who record them voluntarily. It doesn't really make sense to be concerned about something they do voluntarily and nobody requests it when they don't.

Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #112 on: August 15, 2014, 09:42:58 PM »
Think of the guy who spent hundreds of hours of trouble to practice/grind for a 30-minute run. Overall not worth it when people aren't gonna watch the replay anyway.


I don't think there's anything harm in recording the runs, although I myself prefer watching replays. Makes it easier to showcase the games to people who don't play them and such.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 09:51:23 PM by Inadequate »

Jirachi

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Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #113 on: October 11, 2014, 04:40:42 PM »

Ranko Hoshino

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Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #114 on: February 20, 2015, 09:08:28 PM »
It's been a while since anyone posted here, but chum got another GFW LNMNB run and it's on Route C1 this time!

chum - 67,410,060 - Ruote C1 - Video
Currently needing to do more Touhou stuff
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Mino ☆

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Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #115 on: February 25, 2015, 12:37:20 AM »
Added chum's GFW C1 LNN to the list as well as my own PCB LNNN run I got today. :)

EDIT: Okay, started adding some more runs I could find as well. Also, I meant to say this a while ago, actually, but I think this thread should get a sticky.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 04:19:34 AM by Mino ☆ »

Marron

  • Ordinary crow
Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #116 on: February 25, 2015, 11:31:03 AM »
Edit: Sorry, just realized it was "lunatic" no miss no bomb.*facepalm*

Well, In the past I had perfect stage 4 and 5 from MoF in lunatic, but erased everything on youtube. Now it's just some perfect of extra stages, and a stage 5 in hard...

Congratulations to all of them, it's not an easy task. Ranko, your Route C1 is impressive !
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 11:33:42 AM by MaskedLeon »

Ranko Hoshino

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Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #117 on: February 25, 2015, 08:16:21 PM »
That GFW Route C1 run was done by chum. I was just submitting it here. I still have no Lunatic 1ccs myself. ^^;
Currently needing to do more Touhou stuff
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IN Yukari Spell Practice: 218/222
Chat with me, maybe?: https://discord.gg/0bbmWG5ankaeyTzH

Mino ☆

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Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #118 on: February 25, 2015, 08:42:42 PM »
Added Chum's B1 run.

Mino ☆

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Re: Touhou - Lunatic No Miss No Bomb Thread II: The Revival
« Reply #119 on: February 27, 2015, 06:25:32 PM »
Updated to include my DDC LNN.

EDIT: Added Chum's B2 LNN. Dude is on fire! He has 5/6 routes :3

Edit 2: Added Chum's C2 LNN to the list! HE has 6/6 LNN in GFW :0
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 10:57:56 PM by Mino ☆ »