Path of Radiance Mafia -Game Over-

[Helepolis]

? ? ? ? Don't get that.

Also note to self in future Mafia: Follow GUT more. When spotting someone one being obvious unsure/doubting D1 (PX) and suddenly making awesome post, that person obviously got helped to prepare such post thus lynch like holy-shit-fast-batman.

[Conqueror]

PX was claimed investigative power. I was softclaimed investigative power.

[Conqueror]

When spotting someone one being obvious unsure/doubting D1 (PX) and suddenly making awesome post, that person obviously got helped to prepare such post thus lynch like holy-shit-fast-batman.[/i]

Uh Helepolis.

@ PX >> HI where did you got that awesome post from? (Note: major sarcasm). D1 you're show was terrible

I'm confused.
Anyway sleep.

[Shadoweh]

That's actually a good point. If you believed PX's claim, why didn't you watch him?

[Conqueror]

-.-
I thought about it, but then I decided to watch you instead. I wasn't thinking about catching a hypothetical roleblocker. It made sense in my head at the time okay.

[Pesco]

ITT Conq is a perv.

[Helepolis]

Read back on Affinity/BT and wagons for D1 and D2. The best I could come up with is his PX vote in D2. He was 3rd on wagon. If Scum were to sacrifice their useless mafia goon, they wouldn't do it so soon. The wagon was not hot at that time.

This seems to an attempt for scum (PX & Zakeri) to start a 2nd wagon. Mainly because they are most likely abusing my tunnelling. Notice where Zakeri posts his vote.

However, D1 I see Affinity on Dormio. But let's see the wagon count.  Affinity (unknown)  Bardiche (town),  Serela (town),  Rawr (town),  BT (unknown),  PX (Scum). Slightly later on... Conq (claimed town, not proven yet) balances the wagon's, increasing the Serela wagon.

Let's see Serela wagon: Shadoweh (unknown), Dormio (unknown, but L-1 material), Pesco (unknown), Huh What (unknown). Serela was not in danger compared to Dormio. Still L-2. Who put the L-1 vote on Serela? Zakeri did, from a dead NULL!Tricky vote to Serela saying he is not in favour of Dormio vote.


And one important thing has been bothering me the entire Mafia game.

I didn't promise a big post, I promised a post where I would vote NeoSerela and then tell people if it would be because its a consolidation lynch, or if I think there's a shot he might be scum.

But actually said before:

I suppose I should be focusing on the two wagons rather than replying to everything in the thread, I'm very partial against Dormio's lynch since I still have a town read from the first half of the day, so I'll focus on reading NeoSerela in depth.

"Focus in depth" <----------> "Didn't promise big post" >> His serela explanation consists of 3 lines. Nice indepth analysis.

Concluding things from here:
- Obvious Dormio defense.
- Liar --> for making 3 line "in-depth" explanation post.
- Echoing my own case in D2 against HW, sounds like wagon fuelling.

Also if we look PX D2 wagon and counts --> PX on L2 and notice who wagoned up. Rawr and Bardiche, both confirmed town. Noway scum would risk sacrificing PX at this moment in haste.

I ask again which I said to Pesco as well: "My vote on Rawr for pressuring him was no reason to people to follow me. Let's see who followed me in order (including vote links): Shadoweh> Huh what> Dormio > Conq > Rawr (selfvote..) > Affinity > Zakeri (Overlynch like PX)


I state this again: My vote reason on Rawr was NO REASON to make these people move over. Only opportunistic scum to save PX would do this.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Nice accusing.

It is, isn't it? Have anything to say about it?

This is your D2 effort.

I like your misrepresentation. You also did this against Rawr, if I recall correctly.

I asked you three times already why you didn't want PX lynched. You never explained and still refuse to do it.

First of all, it looked to me like he was trying in D1. It just seemed really similar to previous games where I read him as scum, only to find him flipping town when he was lynched.
As for D2... I kind of just ignored him and went by what I thought of him D1 due to his lack of activity.

Yeah, sure.

Wow, some people are really trying hard to toss out the most biggest bullcrap

Tell me about it.

Emtpy votes are even worse, Dormio, like yours?

Uh, what?

Pesco asked this. Conq asked this. It was answered. If you cannot read posts, your problem.

I'm just asking why it took priority over one of two people that you explicitly labelled as scummy, bro.

Why are you worried about the pressure vote? If you're town, you wouldn't have to be worried about this and actually answer the questions.

I'm not worried about it, per se. Like I said, what is the point of a pressure vote at this point in the game? Vote for scum?
Also, I did answer the questions.

You still didn't answer, therefore you're being suspiciously scummy now.

See above.

Not my problem if you cannot read posts Dormio.

Well, this thing was directed at Conq so I ignored it for the most part, but if you want. Whatever.
What you say there does not change the fact that you ignored your supposedly preferred wagon to go after DrRawr.
Speaking of which, let's point out what's bad about #651. Well, first off, you call people scummy for calling you out for your empty unvote. As Bardiche so eloquently mentions in #652, well, no shit people will not like it.
No matter how many times I read #651, I do not understand the reasoning behind voting for DrRawr.
Let me know if I'm getting this right. First off, Rawr disliked how you kept going on and on about the lists. Therefore you voted him. You also take a single quote from him and present it as the entirety of his actions for the entire day to show how scummy he is. Right?
Of course, you rectified this with words in #668 where you basically said that you didn't care about any of Rawr's activity on D1/D2, instead focusing only on a single comment about your lists. You go so far as to mark it as him attacking you, when he hasn't voted you or anything.
Seriously, from what I can gather, all he said was that your lists were stupid, and in your eyes that confirmed him as scum.
You say it sounded "commanded", may I enquire so as to who you thought commanded him to do it?

I seem to be forgotten about it? What about the rest? Opportunistic mudslinging.

Again, give me a moment before I continue.
Okay, first of all, how is this "opportunistic mudslinging"? How is this mudslinging at all?
You wanted HW dead yesterday for a period of time. Almost all of your posts were devoted to trying to get HW lynched during this time.
And then, you kind of just forgot completely about him.
Are you trying to deny this? Are you saying that I'm lying?

Am I sensing scummy shove the blame, ignore the shame here?

Please tell me what I'm ignoring.

Oh yeah, I am dumb and forgot to mention this in an earlier post. Like, I was supposed to put this in my first post or something.
With PX's flip, I am now inclined to take his claim about BT being town at face value.

And I got cut by an interesting looking post by Helepolis.

[Helepolis]

OK Dormio, what do you think on Conq's claim and alignment and my claim + alignment?

Why am I scummier than Conq since you're voting for me. Who else is scummy besides me?

[Helepolis]

@huhwhat - You don't think Hele's content is awful and scummy? To be fair, I wasn't paying much attention to him on D2, because I had a gut possible scum read on you, sorry. But in light of the PX flip and Hele's approach to today, I think he's a good candidate for scum. Plus remember that this is Trickysticks' slot.

Explain to me Conq, what does Trickyslot have to do with me and your accusation. I am sure almost everybody agreed Tricky was non existant D1 and was about to be mod-killed if I didn't replace in.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Conq's thoughts mirror mine. A lot of the things I've been thinking, Conq has said. This confuses me to the point where I want to switch and hammer him just to see what happensI have no idea what I think of him.

As for claims, I've never been good at knowing what to make of claims. Something about Conq's feels a bit off, but will require more reading. And that needs sleep.

As for the scum, I believe them to be hiding within Affinity, Zakeri, Conq, and yourself. Oh, and SK!Shadoweh.

[Helepolis]

So let me get this straight. Conq and Me are possibly scum? Is that what you are saying? So you would see both of us lynched, right?

[Shadoweh]

All I have to do is kill Dormio and my plan will be complete. Ahahaha!

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

You much more so than Conq, yes.

Shadoweh you're scaring me. :ohdear:

[Helepolis]

Final question Dormio:  You claimed Vanilla Town in D1 right?

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

That I did.

[Helepolis]

If I assume you and Conq are town: According to the current votecount:

Helepolis wagon:  2x town (Conq + Dormio) , 2x unknown (HW + Zakeri)
Conq wagon: 1x town, (Helepolis) 3 unknown (Pesco, BT, Affinity)
Nowhere: Shadoweh

Assume we both flip town (whichever lynch happens). How many scum are piled up on the wagons. Did they 1 - 1 split? Or did they pile on the same wagon? My concern: Dormio clearly expressed a favour for Conq and my lynch at the same time but favours me over him, because Conq's posts mirror his thoughts. Odd, why would someone agree with someone who he also wishes to be lynched. Dormio wants Conq to be lynched as well, yet he says he no idea what to think. Zakeri also expressed to prefer seeing Conq go as well, but favours over me as well.

Assuming Conq is lying, your post is in defence of him. So far you and Conq have been echoing each other bashing purely on me. Nobody else did this as obvious as you did. Which would explain also why Conq defended you extremely obvious in D1 and pushed Shadoweh around in D2 bothering her: "Please tell me if you vigged N1". If this is the case, there could be Dormio + Conq buddy, leaving Zakeri outside.

Mystery . . .

[Affinity]

I thought that BT's case on Dormio is a bad case (in terms of I think Dormio is town and BT is pushing at irrelevant points), and I stand by that.  The question is whether it is scum!bad or town!bad. What changed between yesterday and today is that PX ended up flipping scum overnight, so I had to reread the game with this in mind. I find BT's position on PX throughout the game more honest and believable than that of people like you or Helepolis, since I also thought that PX was town. What have you learned from the flip, Affinity? Have you learned anything or was it all known to you beforehand? To paint my position on BT as "discarding my entire D2 for no reason" is completely disingenuous, and I think you know this.

In D2, you must have utilized some sort of measure in deciding that Dormio and PX were town!bad instead of scum!bad, since they were at the very least objectively questionable.  Not applying this measure to BT (e.g you said you never found him explicitly scum!bad D2, just 'bad') and having to use PX's flip on BT based on a small blurb he said on him to suddenly find him town!bad seems... weird in the face of how much gusto you were pursuing him with yesterday over a 'bad' case.  Admissions such as these are why I feel your D2 to be interestingly empty; it more or less says that, out of everyone who is 'bad' by your standards, you can arbitrarily select who is town!bad (Dormio, PX), and scum!bad (rawr, BT) with personal reasons, and vote for whoever you want.

To illustrate: why was PX town despite his failure to make a case early D2 despite being present, while BT was scum for continuing his D1 case on Dormio in D2?  Both of these could be seen as bad, but why is the earlier town!bad and the latter not?

As for your roleclaim, two investigative roles in a game with an already claimed vig and bulletproof is, as you say, abnormal even if possible, and this should have spurred you on to suspect PX and at least question him.  It is pretty hard to believe that you would stick to an arbitrary town read here in face of all the above and automatically cast complete faith into the soundness of the setup without showing at least some form of suspicion.  I am inclined not to believe your claim; your connections to flipped scum are strengthened to what I feel are unacceptable levels as a result of it, which is pretty different from PX's case where the discrepancies were textual and flavor-ish.

===

In other news, Zakeri's admission of voting huhwhat for the entirety of D2 because his PX case was bad is... horrible, to say the least.

Dormio, what happened to your case on BT?

[Shadoweh]

Affinity, the post you linked is before PX's claim. I would venture Conq pressing him assisted in calling PX to claim before he hit L-1. I also bring here followed by pretty much all his questions after the claim.

[Pesco]

If it was because of Conq's pressing that PX claimed, I'd still be wary of today's claim as a scum play. There's automatic acceptance that a Watcher claim soft-counters the scum's fake Tracker.

BT and Zak still need to exist.

[Shadoweh]

There have also been a few games here with both watcher and tracker, though they were more role-madnessy. I'm going out of my way to present posts instead of making defenses for him for now. The way the wagon and claim are being treated make him more likely to be truthful. I'll sleep on it. I still desire to hear a non-Helepolis, non-Conqueror option that people will accept.

[Schezo]

Voting:
Helepolis (4): Huh What, Dormio, Conq, Zakeri (L-1)
Conq (4): Affinity, Pesco, Helepolis, BT (L-1)
BT (1): Shadoweh

Not Voting:
Conq is at L-1
Helepolis is at L-1

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline for day 3 is in ~34 hours Watch Timer Here

[BT]

Oh look, I actually have time for this today.

BT, what do you think of Hele scum?  Given that he did something (suspicions switch from PX to rawr) that seemed objectionable at first glance, what are your comments on him independent of your thoughts on Conq?

Uh, yup, had stuff about this in my original posts. Plenty of things he was doing (for example: cases on HW during D2, the thing with the lists) makes it hard for me to believe he's working with a team, his switch to rawr isn't as bad as people make it seem seeing as he did explain the vote, which is notable considering others haven't even done that much and people are accusing him for it anyway. The way he changed his PX read while doing this is scummy, yes. IIRC, he did this because I (?) convinced him that scum are pushing for PX and this alone made him change his read. I can only assume that this happened because his read on PX wasn't that strong to begin with, and indeed, if you take a look at what he's been doing, his only real scumpick for a long while seemed to be HW. So yes, this is definitely objectionable play, but I'm not seeing this as such a big scumtell like others seem to be.

Don't mind me I am just avoiding a prod will be answering other stuff soon.

[BT]

Tell me why my late D2 reeks of scum. I'm stupid town, I need it spelt out in front of me. Because if you're town you're going to need more than that after I flip.

I have explained this already. But if it'll make you happy, I'll go over some of the stuff:

Comments on PX's claim sum up your interactions with him during late D2, even when he's still the most likely to be lynched. A nice way of making it seem like you're interacting with PX, all the while having absolutely no interactions with PX, don't you think?

Here, I'll say it; at the time, I thought that PX was softclaiming a cop innocent on you, which meant that you could have been either town or a mafia godfather. Then again, PX could have also been claiming something like friendly neighborizer (forget the name) which would have meant you were 100% town, which is why I was hesitant to vote you without more information.

This did not explain why you felt fine with cheerleading my wagon "in the meantime". Plus, this does not explain why you believed the claim in the first place, so much so that you went on and made wild assumptions with the base assumption that he did, in fact, target me. Not to mention, you then accuse HW of instantly believing PX's claim (as in, doing the same thing).

I'm reading Dormio as more or less town right now, so I'm wary of people who seem to be stuck in a tunnel on him and calling him scum, scum, scum.

Of course, your late D2 wasn't what made you scummy, but what solidified my opinion that you are scum, along with PX's flip.

The claim doesn't really change my opinion much. Being fine with PX's tracker claim in a non-role madness game (which would mean tracker+watcher town) is weird, as was noted. But at the same time, he's giving info in that Affinity and Shadoweh were not targeted on N1 and N2 respectively. Then again, this point served us so well last time... Also, why would scum not take risks in this case? The Conq wagon looked (looks?) better than the Hele wagon, and Hele claimed vanilla. Perfectly logical that they would take some risks when they could pay off and change things. And, hey, that's kind of what's happening right now.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

I re-read the scenario surrounding PX's claim and I think Conq's reaction to the claim is entirely reasonable for a Town Watcher with his level of experience, given the way I've seen investigative roles handle investigative fakeclaims in the past. From the way he poked PX for flavor / balance reasons, it's pretty evident he thought something was up with the claim but was second-guessing himself. I'm also not so sure if scum would have taken the opportunity to set up a Watcher fakeclaim right then, either - usually a Tracker fakeclaim would mean that they want to out the real investigator, and if PX was already doing that, immediately preparing a later Watcher claim would be rather superficial. I do not want to lynch Conq right now.

If we were to lynch outside of Hele / Conq, I would take an Affinity lynch over a Zak lynch or BT lynch. I've already talked about how Affinity's D1 interactions with PX look forced to me. I have not seen a BT case which I thought had substance beyond "he's been kinda tunnelly", and re-reading him and Zak does not make me want to lynch them over Affinity or Helepolis. I still find it difficult to believe that PX would have wanted to sheep a case on a scum!Dan and get his buddy lynched Day 1, especially given that PX flipping Goon implies his buddies are probably PRs. D1 busses tend to hurt scum more than town in general since Numbers Are Important, so PX pushing a case on his buddy into the limelight seems unlikely. I think that if scum had an early vote on a buddy D1, it would be closer to a prod that could be switched off of, like Affinity's PX vote was.

Either way, I'm not feeling particularly convinced that we should let Helepolis off scot-free for what looked like a weird reluctance to bus PX just because Shadoweh's metagut says he is town. I take back what I said about his recent post making it look like he doesn't have buddies since now that it's not past midnight I realize that I neglected to consider the possibility of time zones (or him simply being told to play the newbie card).

I'd like to re-read some more, but I'm running low on time. Sorry.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Dormio, what happened to your case on BT?

Er, let me find it.

Oh yeah, I am dumb and forgot to mention this in an earlier post. Like, I was supposed to put this in my first post or something.
With PX's flip, I am now inclined to take his claim about BT being town at face value.

Anyway, reading thing stuff.

[Affinity]

With PX's flip, I am now inclined to take his claim about BT being town at face value.

@Dormio: Why can't PX be defending a fellow scumbuddy with that claim?

Affinity, the post you linked is before PX's claim. I would venture Conq pressing him assisted in calling PX to claim before he hit L-1. I also bring here followed by pretty much all his questions after the claim.

@Shadoweh: But that post I linked was after PX's softclaim, and he stuck to that town read based on such subjective reasons.  And Conq made it clear that he thought that PX was a cop as a result of that softclaim here; watcher+tracker might be on the borders of the realm of absurdity, sure, but a watcher + cop?  I really doubt it.  A token question regarding flavour which he accepted the answer to anyway despite 'reservations' doesn't exactly feel town-affirming, and constant cries for activity regarding PX surely did not play a part in pushing him to L-1.  His 'PX seems town because he's PX' seems extremely unnatural with these considerations.

I agree that watcher is an unsafe fakeclaim for scum, but given people's acceptance of the sentiment that tracker + watcher is reasonable, nothing's stopping the setup from having a scum watcher, which might go well with the apparent roleblocker here.  It would make his N2 target on Shadoweh somewhat strange if true, but other than that, I think it's a valid enough possibility.

I still find it difficult to believe that PX would have wanted to sheep a case on a scum!Dan and get his buddy lynched Day 1, especially given that PX flipping Goon implies his buddies are probably PRs. D1 busses tend to hurt scum more than town in general since Numbers Are Important, so PX pushing a case on his buddy into the limelight seems unlikely.

@huhwhat: Regarding your clear of Zakeri, the case on ActionDan was one where the main transgression was him not having a solid vote, and once Dan made a solid vote, the wagon on him would disperse, as typical of D1 patterns (as it did).  Given that it was a wagon with a premise that could be easily rectified, why are you putting so much stock into your impression that scum would perceive that such a wagon as inevitable, and absolving Zakeri's votepark on you D2 and weirdness in general to uphold that perception?  You seem to be suspecting me based on the process of elimination and the assumption that scum would vote other scum D1, so this is quite important. 

[Affinity]

I think I've risen enough on Zakeri befitting of his content, and I'm willing to lynch him even over Helepolis.  Helepolis, in general, is far too loud and brash to be likely scum (e.g attracting Conq's vote from me when it wasn't needed for instance).  There's also the issue in which I believe that his vote on rawr over PX D2 was fine (compared to Zakeri's and Conq's interactions with PX).  Yes, his tunnel on huhwhat is certainly bad, but in general I feel that his scumhunting does contain some grain of truth (on Zakeri, Conq) despite him using premises we don't really accept.

I think pesco and huhwhat are solid at this point in time for the normal reasons, since they both voted PX early D2 and are leaders with regards to scumhunting.  BT is a general town read, given that I thought him right yesterday over Conq, but given a limited range of suspects he has had the entire game, this opinion is subject to change depending on Dormio's and Conq's flips, but in general I'm fine with the way he pursued Dormio and Conq so far.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

As much as I want to ignore Helepolis for the time being, this keeps bothering me.

Also Shadoweh, I never declared anybody town to avoid cutting my self on this. Otherwise opportunistic scum or confused town will ask: "THIS PERSON WAS TOWN, WHY SUDDENLY SUSPICIOUS". Which would only create more noise. Therefore I only listed "looking bad" and "suspicious" and my there is absolutely no way anybody can conclude anything on this except question me on Rawr vs PX.

Do you really believe this? Really? I can't wrap my head around this. Whatever.

@Dormio: Why can't PX be defending a fellow scumbuddy with that claim?

Because :PXtroll:.
It is a possibility, but one that I'm willing to disregard as I do not believe that PX would do such a thing.

[Conqueror]

Only quickly responding to something; the rest will have to come later.

And Conq made it clear that he thought that PX was a cop as a result of that softclaim here; watcher+tracker might be on the borders of the realm of absurdity, sure, but a watcher + cop?  I really doubt it.

I'll point you to your own setup for cop + watcher + vig + , so this talking point is full of it. The main point is that I don't know what the full setup is, and what PRs the scumteam may or may not have. I'll take "balance" into consideration but I'm not going to lynch someone solely off of it. I felt PX's flaky play could have somewhat fit that of a PR.

Nothing is "town-affirming" of course, confirmed townies are rare to come across in mafia. Your talking points in this particular post seem to be "well conq's claim doesn't confirm him as town" which is a given. Let's not talk hypotheticals; what do you really think?

Helepolis, in general, is far too loud and brash to be likely scum (e.g attracting Conq's vote from me when it wasn't needed for instance).  There's also the issue in which I believe that his vote on rawr over PX D2 was fine (compared to Zakeri's and Conq's interactions with PX).  Yes, his tunnel on huhwhat is certainly bad, but in general I feel that his scumhunting does contain some grain of truth (on Zakeri, Conq) despite him using premises we don't really accept.

I dunno, I've been pretty loud and brash. Tell us about Helepolis' vote on rawr. What did it consist of, if you recall? What premises is Helepolis working from in his scumcase on Zakeri?
(Point being that I think you're using empty words here and so this looks like a fakeread, but yes I really would like clarification on these issues).