League of Legends Thread XVI -Double International Salt Mine Edition-

[Raikaria]

with things like zed, yasuo, jax, irelia, etc. carry killers being really popular right now, i can't agree that the sightstone upgrade is worth more than extra hp on your carry vs fighters and assassins

Most of the time the Face of the Mountain Shield isn't saving a carry who's been jumped on by some high damage fighter. Face of the Mountain is not giving you even 1 autoattack more if a Yasuo or a Rageblade Jax jumps on you.

[Ryuu]

sounds like your supports aren't building enough HP

[Raikaria]

sounds like your supports aren't building enough HP

Even if the support has items and levels to have 3k HP it's only a 300 damage shield. 10% Max HP isn't that much. To compare; Janna gives 240+70% AP sheilding every 10 seconds [without CDR] and gives an AD steroid while it's up. A 3000 HP Alistar using FotM is equal to a Rank 1 Lulu R with 0 AP; and no knockup or slow aura.

At lv 18; Locket of the Iron Solari is a 345 HP shield; on multiple people; plus the Legion Aura. And you don't even need to actually target that. Which factors in because if your carry is jumped on you need to defend them ASAP.

Face of the Mountain's active is just weak. It's outclassed by Solari, and the engage/disengage power of Talisman and the Twin Shadows+ active of Frost Queen both blow it out of the water.

It dosen't help that Face of the Mountain is easily the worst actual gold generation item too. It generates far less gold than a Frostfang [Frostfang gets you up to 45 gold per 30. There's not a cannon every wave; so Brace isn't getting you anywhere near that] , is more dangerous to use than a Coin [While giving no mana sustain], and gives you absolutely awful gold income lategame where other members of your team clear the waves instantly. Hell; Frostfang is so good people are building it in midlane.

Honestly there's almost no reason to even go Relic Shield at all right now. Let alone waste a slot on Face of the Mountain when you can build the Eye.

[NekoNekoRex]

Free lane sustain is pretty nice imo

[hyorinryu]

Even if the support has items and levels to have 3k HP it's only a 300 damage shield. 10% Max HP isn't that much. To compare; Janna gives 240+70% AP sheilding every 10 seconds [without CDR] and gives an AD steroid while it's up. A 3000 HP Alistar using FotM is equal to a Rank 1 Lulu R with 0 AP; and no knockup or slow aura.

At lv 18; Locket of the Iron Solari is a 345 HP shield; on multiple people; plus the Legion Aura. And you don't even need to actually target that. Which factors in because if your carry is jumped on you need to defend them ASAP.

Face of the Mountain's active is just weak. It's outclassed by Solari, and the engage/disengage power of Talisman and the Twin Shadows+ active of Frost Queen both blow it out of the water.

It dosen't help that Face of the Mountain is easily the worst actual gold generation item too. It generates far less gold than a Frostfang [Frostfang gets you up to 45 gold per 30. There's not a cannon every wave; so Brace isn't getting you anywhere near that] , is more dangerous to use than a Coin [While giving no mana sustain], and gives you absolutely awful gold income lategame where other members of your team clear the waves instantly. Hell; Frostfang is so good people are building it in midlane.

Honestly there's almost no reason to even go Relic Shield at all right now. Let alone waste a slot on Face of the Mountain when you can build the Eye.

I like going both Face and Locket. The shields stack, don't they?

Also, does the shield getting oneshot take into account resistances that will weaken attacks and strengthen the shield? I think when you take base resistances into account, along with bonuses from stuff like Aegis, The sheild from face of the mountain looks a lot better. Even if it did block only one auto, considering late game, adcs can chunk stuff in 3 hits or so, that's still a lot, especially if they've built a decent amount of lifesteal.

[Mr. Sacchi]

They do, yes. And you should do that anyway because there's no real reason not to.

And face of the mountain gives this little cool thing called lane sustain which tends to be a really big deal.

[Bardiche]

Locket gives 225 HP shield at level 10,

Nautilus's base HP is 1436 at level 10 (assuming the Game Info on the official website is correct).

Face of the Mountain gives 450 health. You should also have a Sightstone by then, which is another 150 health.

So... 2036 HP at level 10 Nautilus, having only FotM and Sightstone for additional HP. IDK, 225 HP shield versus 200 HP shield isn't that massive of a difference when you're just aching to save one person, and since you can combine, it's 425 HP shielding to your ADC. Keep in mind that if you actually have FotM, Sightstone and Locket of the Iron Solari, the additional HP gained from the Locket would push the FotM shield higher than Locket by slight. If you stop building HP from that point onward, Locket will win out again. If you keep building HP, FotM stays ahead.

Let's not forget that you can complete FotM way before you complete Locket, and a 200 HP shield at the early levels can make or break a teamfight.

EDIT: While few ADCs will probably have it, there's also a mastery for 8% stronger shielding on you. There's also a support mastery for 10% stronger shielding, and if you're building FotM and Locket both, it can be worth the investment even as a tanky support.

[Raikaria]

So... 2036 HP at level 10 Nautilus, having only FotM and Sightstone for additional HP. IDK, 225 HP shield versus 200 HP shield isn't that massive of a difference when you're just aching to save one person

Locket always effects you as well so really it's 550 total vs 200 which isn't even comparable. Only 1 champion in the entire game has no abilities which cannot effect multiple targets [Vayne]. So saying the self-shield dosen't matter is just wrong. Especially given they can just swap targets since to cast FotM you're standing there and you don't have a shield. And Locket works just off levels while Face needs levels and items to even come close.

Also people who don't know when a game is blatently over and make you suffer 15 mins of the enemy team screwing around and instantly deleting you are really starting to get on my nerves. If an Irelia at 25 mins is so strong she can 1v5 and get a Quadra Kill and then get out that probobly means you should surrender.

Not refuse to surrender and get instajibbed for 15~20 mins until the minions finally win the game.

I dunno am I just playing with machosistic players all the time? Because I dunno about you but getting instantly deleted with nothing that can be done over and over and over and over and over again for 15~20 mins isn't fun. And this sort of thing happens way more than it reasonably should.

It's even worse in Leauge of Thunderlords because snowballing is so much worse when everyone has an extra AP/AD Ratio in burst damage which amplifies the snowball effect so much more.

Honestly in this patch the effect of snowballing feels even worse than it is in DotA. And that's saying something considering you lose gold when you die in that game. [Because some Dota C.C abilities are so insane they can fight back against someone snowballed. But Leauge doesn't have C.C like 5 second disables.]

[hyorinryu]

Locket always effects you as well so really it's 550 total vs 200 which isn't even comparable. Only 1 champion in the entire game has no abilities which cannot effect multiple targets [Vayne]. So saying the self-shield dosen't matter is just wrong. Especially given they can just swap targets since to cast FotM you're standing there and you don't have a shield. And Locket works just off levels while Face needs levels and items to even come close.

Also people who don't know when a game is blatently over and make you suffer 15 mins of the enemy team screwing around and instantly deleting you are really starting to get on my nerves. If an Irelia at 25 mins is so strong she can 1v5 and get a Quadra Kill and then get out that probobly means you should surrender.

Not refuse to surrender and get instajibbed for 15~20 mins until the minions finally win the game.

I dunno am I just playing with machosistic players all the time? Because I dunno about you but getting instantly deleted with nothing that can be done over and over and over and over and over again for 15~20 mins isn't fun. And this sort of thing happens way more than it reasonably should.

It's even worse in Leauge of Thunderlords because snowballing is so much worse when everyone has an extra AP/AD Ratio in burst damage which amplifies the snowball effect so much more.

Honestly in this patch the effect of snowballing feels even worse than it is in DotA. And that's saying something considering you lose gold when you die in that game. [Because some Dota C.C abilities are so insane they can fight back against someone snowballed. But Leauge doesn't have C.C like 5 second disables.]

Vayne might be the only one who's completely single target, but I think it's misleading to put it that way. While most champions, can affect multiple targets, most of the damage is usually focused on one guy.  If I'm Naut/Leona/someone who'd built face  and Irelia switches targets from from a carry to me, that's what I want. I'm not going to die in 2-3 hits, and Irelia is going to have to deal with tanking stuff from someone who built completely glass.

Personally, I think if I game is really a stomp, it'll be over shortly, so I don't surrender. People can always throw.

[Iryan]

Technically, if the enemy team is way ahead, they will eventually reach the level and item caps, at which point your team can catch back up...

[Raikaria]

Personally, I think if I game is really a stomp, it'll be over shortly, so I don't surrender. People can always throw.

Except they do whatever possible to not end the game. The game ends when the minions end it. While staying as 5. They just derp around the map usually killing anyone who dares try to ward/push a wave out past their base. Maybe the occasional towerdive then walk away.

And then they proceed to do nothing again. And when the enemy team behaves like this and your team cannot see A: You are being toyed with and your time being wasted and B: The game is completely lost.

There comes a point where the tiny chance for a comeback is not worth the likly suffering and waste of time. I'd rather get into the next game if the current one is hopelessly lost.

I don't even push for a surrender if we're losing by a little. It's when the game is a complete stomp and the enemy is just toying with our team that I push for surrenders. [And even then I keep trying if the vote is no. I know it's probobly pointless and a waste of time but I still play properly]

It's getting more and more common behavior.

[Bardiche]

Especially given they can just swap targets since to cast FotM you're standing there and you don't have a shield.

If using a 250 HP shield on my carry will cause the enemy team to divert all their damage onto me instead, I'd say I just gave my carry a 2500 HP shield and succeeded at this game more than you'd know.

I also think in a team-fight, generally Trundle, Teemo, Tahm Kench, Kindred, Akali, Anivia, Ashe, Caitlyn, Cassiopeia, Corki, Diana, Mundo, Draven, Elise, Evelynn, Ezreal, Fiora, Fizz, Irelia, Kha'zix, Kog'Maw, Nasus, Nocturne, Olaf, Quinn, Rengar, Ryze, Shaco, Talon, Tryndamere, Udyr, Warwick (has no AoE) and Zed will be doing most of their damage to a single-target due to having some AoE, but their major damage being unloadable mostly on one person. They can't burst AoE with the same strength as that they can burst single-target. If you do want to argue that the champions I just listed have fearsome AoE damage that they're played for, that's all right. I may be mistaken on some of these. When I see them, though? I worry about their single-target damage more than their AoE.

For all that Fiora's W is technically multi-target, and Trundle's E or Warwick's W/E could technically count, there are plenty of champions in the game whose main damage model focuses on bursting down a single character as opposed to spreading the love to a multitude of characters. Being able to blunt their assault is valuable.

Where did I say the self-shield didn't matter? I didn't. I did say that for the purposes of shielding your ADC, FotM isn't "useless" and can, in fact, beat out Locket of the Iron Solari when you're aching to save one person.

When Trundle comes for your ADC, I'm pretty sure your ADC won't really give two fucks about how you have a 225 HP shield on yourself as well. Neither will Trundle.

[Raikaria]

I stated abilities which only effect 1 target. Warwick can effect multiple allies and enemies [Blood Scent Reveal Debuff]. He can't damage multiple [Unless he has a Hydra] but still.

And Talon's singe-target damage that is not AoE is exclusively the damage amp from Cutthroat and Noxian Diplomacy's Bleed/AA's. Talon deals most of his damage AoE.

And it doesn't really matter if the focus is single-target. Splash damage adds up; any damage mitigation helps. Especially with Rageblade/Hydra so popular. And for Face to outdo Locket late on a single target you need over 3,450 HP at Lv 18. [Outdoing it on 2+ people is a complete pipe dream]. And that's ignoreing the +15% effective HP boost against magic damage it grants. [Making Locket worth 396.75 HP against specifically magic damage]

Face is weak. It's easily the worst of the goldgen actives. It used to be middle [Frost Queen's active was complete garbage]. Combine worst active with worst gold income and you get an outclassed item. Hell; the Eye gives you more HP than Face itself does.

Fact is Face is a worse Locket, and gives you worse gold income than the other gold items so your items progress slower. I don't even build Face on melee supports because I'd rather go Talisman to get in with Alistar; Leona ect and such for an initiate without being reliant on Flash.

[Widermelonz]

Just dropping in to say that all the Eye items suck. If I wanted 4 charges on my sightstone, I'd get ruby sight stone, not some shitty item that locks me out of a useful item active ability. All three support item actives are useful, but right now, sp00ky >>> Face > Talisman. The mage supports that previously used talisman now all get Frost Queen. Some tank supports that previously sometimes got talisman (thresh, ali, blitz, etc.) now all get Face because everyone shits out too much damage too fast (thunderlord's is one part of the reason). I usually don't use winrates to support my statements, but I want to mention that for EVERY support right now (except for one) their highest winrate build includes either Frost Queen or Face. The exception is Soraka, IIRC, who's pretty good with Talisman. Nobody else builds any of the Eye items.

Also, saying Face is a worse Locket is not a valid reason to not build it. Coming out of lane with a Targon's, upgrading to Face cost 1250g, which is damn good considering the additional stats you get from upgrading to it is worth about ~1200g, so you're basically paying ~50g for a pretty good shield to protect a carry. And at this point of the game, having that shield active available can really save a carry's ass. Compare that to coming out of lane and trying to build a Locket. You'll need to spend 2500g to get the shield active, which takes way too long since at this point and you need that shield active ASAP. I'm not saying Locket's a bad item, far from it. It gives you about 2300g worth of stats if you're by yourself and basically pays for itself in stats once you have like one other with you, and that's not even counting the active. But the main point I'm trying to make is that, coming out of lane you want that shield to protect your carry NOW, and Face active does the job well. And if you want, then you can build Locket afterwards.

EDIT: forgot to reply to this

Trundle, Teemo, Tahm Kench, Kindred, Akali, Anivia, Ashe, Caitlyn, Cassiopeia, Corki, Diana, Mundo, Draven, Elise, Evelynn, Ezreal, Fiora, Fizz, Irelia, Kha'zix, Kog'Maw, Nasus, Nocturne, Olaf, Quinn, Rengar, Ryze, Shaco, Talon, Tryndamere, Udyr, Warwick (has no AoE) and Zed

Here's my opinion,

Strong single target damage, i.e. "if I can get to your carry i will fuck his shit up": trundle, tahm, akali, cait, mundo, draven, elise, fizz, irelia, kha, nasus, nocturne, olaf, rengo, ryze, shaco, tryn, udyr, ww.
Strong AOE damage, i.e. "i want to fuck everybody's shit up": teemo, anivia, corki.
The "I want to delete your carry, but i do a lot of free damage to everyone too": kindred, ashe, cassio, diana, eve, ezreal, fiora, kog, quinn, talon, zed.

Talon does a fuckton of AOE, on top of being able to instagib bitches.
Fiora doesn't really do AOE dmg per se, but her passive is too good to pass up if you can proc it for free on whoever you can.

[Ryuu]

i was gone for a few days but i'm just gonna say that face and locket don't compete for an item slot so there's no point in comparing them

what are we arguing about now

[Bardiche]

what are we arguing about now

Zed's champion page has weirdass flowers.

[Aba Matindesu!]

dark sakura petals, something something jp server inc

[Ryuu]

i hope zed's dead

[hyorinryu]

I hate Zed right now. He destroys my premade whenever he shows up. My group made him permaban status.

[Bardiche]

Zed be like (づ￣ ?￣)づ come here bby i love you
and I'm just (?Д?ױ) NO FUCK OFF I DON'T WANT YOU IN MY GAMES

I can't ban all these stupidly popular champions. Lucian, Zed, Miss Fortune, Lee Sin, Yasuo, Mundo, Brand, they're all champions who should just go fuck off. ;_;

[NekoNekoRex]

Why is mundo op? That seems odd

[Cadmas]

Why is mundo op? That seems odd

Not sure if hes op right now, but he is a camp clearing jungle god.

[hyorinryu]

Not sure if hes op right now, but he is a camp clearing jungle god.

Hasn't he been that way since S2?

[Ryuu]

so i don't know a whole lot about why mundo is so good but i'm gonna wager a guess that it has to do with the level of damage output in the game rn and that also the popular tops are really farm heavy so mundo can just accumulate tons of money without pressure and get the five billion hp items the game has now

[Raikaria]

so i don't know a whole lot about why mundo is so good but i'm gonna wager a guess that it has to do with the level of damage output in the game rn and that also the popular tops are really farm heavy so mundo can just accumulate tons of money without pressure and get the five billion hp items the game has now

That and the buff to Macho giving him HP-scaleing damage [Read: Actual damage scaleing in his kit]; and Grasp of the Undying on a champion who stacks HP. He can also go Titanic Hydra to up his AoE damage output.

Mundo always triple-dipped in HP. Now he like; quintuple-dips.

[Aba Matindesu!]

Yep, Grasp of the Undying + Warmogs + Spirit Visage + Titanic Hydra = what is dying and why is everyone else doing it?

[Silent Harmony]

I will make you beautiful. I will make you perfect.

[hyorinryu]

I will make you beautiful. I will make you perfect.

I can't unsee Handsome Jack.

[Cadmas]

I can't unsee Amon. Liking this so far. Bit pretentious though.

[Ruka]

JP voices getting uploaded to youtube as we speak. Time to play name that VA/character.

https://www.youtube.com/user/LeagueVoices/videos