Author Topic: League of Legends Thread XVI -Double International Salt Mine Edition- (Read 138331 times)

Ryuu · « **Reply #510 on:** November 10, 2015, 12:16:09 AM »

Quote from: Cadmas on November 09, 2015, 10:11:15 PM

You mean shove the shit out of the lane. Which I don't like to do cause I play like an EU sandbagger.

no i mean wave control. equating wave control to just shoving the shit out of lane is a super silver mentality

Cadmas · « **Reply #511 on:** November 10, 2015, 12:36:01 AM »

Quote from: Ryuu on November 10, 2015, 12:16:09 AM

no i mean wave control. equating wave control to just shoving the shit out of lane is a super silver mentality

Well now I honestly just think you're making stuff up since *wave control* Doesn't mean anything.

How else do you roam without losing your tower?

Suikama · « **Reply #512 on:** November 10, 2015, 12:36:46 AM »

Quote from: Cadmas on November 10, 2015, 12:36:01 AM

Well now I honestly just think you're making stuff up since *wave control* Doesn't mean anything.

:munch:

Mr. Sacchi · « **Reply #513 on:** November 10, 2015, 12:45:17 AM »

Quote from: Cadmas on November 10, 2015, 12:36:01 AM

Well now I honestly just think you're making stuff up since *wave control* Doesn't mean anything.

How else do you roam without losing your tower?

I'll just point to all of the LCS games where the pros regularly push their waves just beyond enemy tower range, and then roam.

Or you can preemptively force a slow push, before shoving a single enemy wave down, this ends up meaning that there will be a massive minion wave going directly towards their tower and they either answer it (which stops them from answering your gank in other lanes) or lose the tower themselves.

Ryuu · « **Reply #514 on:** November 10, 2015, 02:21:08 AM »

Quote from: Cadmas on November 10, 2015, 12:36:01 AM

Well now I honestly just think you're making stuff up since *wave control* Doesn't mean anything.

How else do you roam without losing your tower?

there's shit like freezing, slow/fast pushing, wave denial, etc. etc. that are all parts of wave control. let me give you a real world example

let's say i'm playing leblanc. i just pushed my opponent out of lane without using my ult, so i want to roam. the wave is even and newly arriving, as the previous creep wave was destroyed in the fight, but i want to miss as few creep as possible when i roam. in this case, i would e one caster minion, q another, auto the middle one, and W the back line. this should destroy the back 3 cs. at this point, I leave to another lane

what this does is create pressure. the 3 melee minions will hold the wave back long enough for my opponent and the enemy jungler to make a decision. they can either try to match and/or counter my roam(which might be difficult if they have no vision), or they can lose the gold/exp to turret when I could be backing as far as they know. the timing window created by leaving the 3 melee minions means that, while i'm sacrificing 3 cs, the enemy team has to either get the cs hitting their turret OR give up potential pressure.

what would happen a lot in silver is that the enemy would just afk back to mid lane to catch the farm. if you successfully roam in this period, then you've basically guaranteed that at least the mid laner can't counter-gank or follow you. so basically, if you get anything out of that gank, it cost you 3 cs to do so. it's also important to keep in mind that even if no one dies in your roam, you could be gaining cs for your teammates too. if mid gives up 3 cs to get their adc 10 cs safely, that's a pretty good exchange of resources.

alternatively, you could just watch that guy's videos b/c he explains this shit a lot better than i can. or you could just continue to think that "wave control" is a made up thing by high elo players to keep the silver man down.

Quote from: Suikama on November 10, 2015, 12:36:46 AM

:munch:

i lolled irl at this a lot more than i should have

Aba Matindesu! · « **Reply #515 on:** November 10, 2015, 04:49:20 AM »

Quote from: Cadmas on November 10, 2015, 12:36:01 AM

Well now I honestly just think you're making stuff up since *wave control* Doesn't mean anything.

l m a o

Anyway, aside from what Ryuu already said, you can also visualize minion waves as forces pushing against each other, running out/rolling over, getting refreshed, and getting cut off. The first two are simple enough on their own (bigger wave outlasts the other, and its remainder rolls over to the next wave), so you now need to consider the latter two.

Minion waves are refreshed every 30 seconds, and walk through the lane at the same speed. Depending on where the point of collision currently is, one of the waves could arrive first, sometimes significantly earlier if the lane is really pushed in. In that case, the offensive value of the wave that came first is magnified because they can attack the opposing wave while the reinforcements on the other side are still coming and obviously can't reach the battle. In short, the further in a wave is, the slower it will push, until the opposing minions eventually build up and begin pushing themselves.

Without any outside influence, this would continue ad nauseum. However, there is almost always outside influence; namely, champions and towers. Those two are your cutoff sources: towers provide a "hard" cutoff in that minions can never progress past them until they're dead, and they help reverse an otherwise uninfluenced push due to added offensive power. Hard pushing into a tower thus bounces the wave as needed and has the added bonus of damaging the tower and, hopefully, denying the enemy some CS. Champions themselves provide a soft, variable cutoff because they can control how they want to shape the waves, but only when they're there.

I'm not sure how to word the application of the latter to the former, but there you go, wave control.

Cadmas · « **Reply #516 on:** November 10, 2015, 10:33:12 AM »

I meant ryu was just pulling terms out of his ass w/o providing examples.
I know what wave control is but if you just slap it around with no context it means nothing like "map awareness" or "vision control"
It only took him 3 posts to get there all while calling me a bad. That doesn't help anyone.

Iryan · « **Reply #517 on:** November 10, 2015, 11:33:08 AM »

Quote from: Ryuu on November 09, 2015, 09:47:06 AM

i've plugged this guy before but if you are currently "waaah i can't win" then https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQr0dgCYKhw

and basically every other video of his

These are actually really really good. They explain some stuff I didn't know, as well as stuff I only sorta knew in clear detail. Definitely helpful. :3

NekoNekoRex · « **Reply #518 on:** November 10, 2015, 01:09:08 PM »

The problem is I don't play carries, I play almost exclusively jungle tanks and supports. When I win lanes, it's usually as a support getting my carry fed or jungle doing constant ganks (that my team is terrible at following up on)

Even if my team does off-meta picks they're still playing horribly. In that Ashe Top game I mentioned, Ashe continually pushed the lane down towards the center of the lane, and it was easy for Trundle to just constantly kill her with his spells, since she's immobile and mostly just pure damage, slows (which don't do much to counteract Trundle's better slows and speed boost), and a short stun.

Ashe got two deaths before getting one kill back at Trundle, then she just died continuously.

I was playing Zac that game. I decided to help the other lanes get rolled, because the best use of my time is getting good lanes fed, which still failed because despite ganking bot THREE TIMES IN A ROW they still couldn't secure a kil, and other such nonsense that my constant use of E failed to help despite landing it most of the time

Iryan · « **Reply #519 on:** November 10, 2015, 04:13:51 PM »

Quote from: NekoNekoRex on November 10, 2015, 01:09:08 PM

The problem is I don't play carries, I play almost exclusively jungle tanks and supports.

I don't know what rank you are at (I am going to assume something below plat because else I have no right to talk with my limited expertise), but what I usually do as support when my carry keeps making bad decisions is trying to figure out which of my teammates is playing well, and then focus on supporting >that< person for the purpose of teamfights and general protection once the laning phase is over, preferrably if it is an assassin or bruiser with good damage output. Of course, sometimes your entire team is significantly worse than you, but that should not happen too often.

For jungling, if you are going to gank a lane it is a good idea to do a flag ping well in advance and then a targetted ping on the enemy 2 seconds or so before you would like them to engage so they know you are coming and what to do (assuming you don't do that already). Of course, sometimes this leads to your own laner getting overconfident and just going in to "bait" (read: die), but eh. That is one big thing I frequently see: people complaining about "are you fucking blind, how did you not see me/that guy coming to gank?!". Even if yes, they should have seen you coming, if you didn't ping in advance, it is partially your own fault, because if you had done that, it might have gone better.

If you don't have good ganking opportunities and/or you gauge your lanes as so bad that ganking usually isn't worth it, trying to aggravate the enemy jungler can be a good alternative. Afterall, he is your direct "lane"-opponent. I cannot really advise much on how to do this well, but generally paying attention to the mini map and any possible sign for enemy jungler activities is a good start. You can do Retreat! or Danger! pings to save your tunnelvision allies and countergank, or, if you are too far away to intervene, you can put down a ward in the enemy jungle and posibly steal a big creep, which both puts him a little behind and enables you to potentially kill that guy later on. Of course, as a tank jungler this will be harder than as a non-tank jungler, but still.

Generally though, champs that have low damage output are not going to win the game by themselves if the rest of your team is really bad. But that just happens sometimes, can't win em all. :derp:

Raikaria · « **Reply #520 on:** November 10, 2015, 06:05:54 PM »

So...

With Season 5 ending tonight and THE PATCH tonight; what are you guys most excited for?

It might surprise you but for me it's not playing MF with the new items. [Ghostblade-IE massive midgame power RIP] I'm actually most excited to just have new items and build paths to try out on loads of champions. I'm one of those people who does adjust their build every game to the situation. Loads of new items and new choices and pretty much every item getting some changes even if it's just price really changes builds.

2nd place is toying with masteries.

Also all the new crit synergies in some ADC kits; masteries; and items makes me wonder if Crit Runes suddenly became viable outside of Tryndamere/Yasuo/1% Crit for lulz.

Patorikku · « **Reply #521 on:** November 10, 2015, 08:46:23 PM »

Yo have we talked about Illaoi yet? Because I REALLY love the look of Illaoi right now! Actually, I'll be perfectly honest, all I saw was her visual design, and YO HOLY SHIT I LOVE IT. Like, there's finally a woman in League that looks less like a skinny runway model and more like a titan made of muscle like you'd kind of expect from a tanky fighter! (I'm looking at you, Sejuani)

Oh but uh I've already discussed what I'm excited about for season 6, though I won't be testing any of that too soon...

Suikama · « **Reply #522 on:** November 10, 2015, 10:31:58 PM »

Iryan · « **Reply #523 on:** November 10, 2015, 11:08:33 PM »

I just skimmed through the stuff and noticed something I hadn't seen anywhere before. Apparently if your team has a turret and/or level advantage, your minions will deal notably increased damage to enemy minions and take less damage in return as well. This means that freezing the lane might be harder to do... but then again, if your team has a 2+ turret advantage, you are probably past the point where you would want to freeze (or it might encourage people to not take down the turret early so that they can better deny the enemy farm). However, despite this effect being especially strong in the lane that has the turret advantage, the fact that this affects ALL lanes in some form might lead to... strange and unpredicted sight effects in how the game plays (and, of course, even more "reasons" to yelled at by your teammates).

Interested in how this will impact the game at various levels of play...

Ryuu · « **Reply #524 on:** November 11, 2015, 02:55:01 AM »

Quote from: Cadmas on November 10, 2015, 10:33:12 AM

I meant ryu was just pulling terms out of his ass w/o providing examples.
I know what wave control is but if you just slap it around with no context it means nothing like "map awareness" or "vision control"
It only took him 3 posts to get there all while calling me a bad. That doesn't help anyone.

tbh map awareness, vision control, wave control, etc., are all terms that are comparable to "last hitting" as a term. they're simple enough concepts but have a lot of implied knowledge behind them. it's a lot faster to say "wave control" than "manipulating the minions in a way appropriate to your current situation that allows you to apply or diffuse pressure". if you're gonna try and seriously climb ranked, you should at least know what this shit means without needing an explanation, even if you don't know how to apply it.

Quote from: NekoNekoRex on November 10, 2015, 01:09:08 PM

The problem is I don't play carries, I play almost exclusively jungle tanks and supports. When I win lanes, it's usually as a support getting my carry fed or jungle doing constant ganks (that my team is terrible at following up on)

the thing with tanks/supports is that you can still largely impact the game. it's generally recommended to play a champion that can do damage because of the situations where you can catch an enemy out and just blow them up, but that doesn't mean that playing a tank/support type champion kills your chances of climbing. in my experience, tank/support players might climb slower overall than if they had played a more damaging champion, but they should still consistently climb as long as they belong higher. as long as you play your role better than the average in your elo, you should rise even if it takes many games to do so.

Quote

Even if my team does off-meta picks they're still playing horribly. In that Ashe Top game I mentioned, Ashe continually pushed the lane down towards the center of the lane, and it was easy for Trundle to just constantly kill her with his spells, since she's immobile and mostly just pure damage, slows (which don't do much to counteract Trundle's better slows and speed boost), and a short stun.

Ashe got two deaths before getting one kill back at Trundle, then she just died continuously.

things like this are why you have to look at ranked as a big numbers game. if every loss feels like a huge deal, ranked is just gonna become a stressful mess when it doesn't need to be. like, if you only play 50 games of ranked, then yeah, that shitty ashe top could be an influential thing that could prevent you from hitting a certain rank in time. if you play more like 200-300 or more games of ranked, then that shitty ashe top is barely a blip on the radar so to speak.

Quote

I was playing Zac that game. I decided to help the other lanes get rolled, because the best use of my time is getting good lanes fed, which still failed because despite ganking bot THREE TIMES IN A ROW they still couldn't secure a kil, and other such nonsense that my constant use of E failed to help despite landing it most of the time

sometimes shit just doesn't work. it's really easy to get caught up in everyone else's mistakes, especially when you're playing a more supportive position, but their mistakes still don't matter in the grand scheme of things. the only good thing to do is to just focus on yourself and how to improve.

Quote from: Iryan on November 10, 2015, 11:08:33 PM

minions

yeah, i like how we started posting about wave control and shit and then riot is like "lol wave control is different now" THANKS RIOT

Mr. Sacchi · « **Reply #525 on:** November 11, 2015, 03:40:38 AM »

I'm actually super worried about the minion changes, I seriously don't want this to become Season 3 again where snowballing out of control was stupidly easy.

Silent Harmony · « **Reply #526 on:** November 11, 2015, 05:12:29 AM »

Spoiler:

* :qq:

Widermelonz · « **Reply #527 on:** November 11, 2015, 05:51:29 AM »

Quote from: NekoNekoRex on November 10, 2015, 01:09:08 PM

The problem is I don't play carries, I play almost exclusively jungle tanks and supports.

I climbed from gold5 to plat4 in about a month by just spamming malphite and alistar. You don't need to be a damage carry to carry the game. You can do it, just gotta belieeeeve!

Mr. Sacchi · « **Reply #528 on:** November 11, 2015, 07:00:47 AM »

Quote from: Mimeslayer on November 11, 2015, 05:12:29 AM

Spoiler:
Dragon Trainer Tristana!

Romantically oblivious as always! (Trist: "We make a pretty good pair, don't we Rumble?....Just me, and this Dragon.")

When she dies, her dragon Riggles nudges her corpse sadly with his nose then lies at her side!*

I NEED THIS SKIN!!!
* :qq:

This skin is freaking adorable. The fact that I am naturally in love with dragons doesn't help.

Shit, I think I have to buy tristana now just to have this skin.

Ryuu · « **Reply #529 on:** November 11, 2015, 10:02:51 AM »

Quote from: Toyosatomimi No Sacchi on November 11, 2015, 03:40:38 AM

I'm actually super worried about the minion changes, I seriously don't want this to become Season 3 again where snowballing out of control was stupidly easy.

oh man, the concept of anything becoming like season 3 again gets me all giddy

season 3 was my favorite season

Mr. Sacchi · « **Reply #530 on:** November 11, 2015, 10:04:29 AM »

Quote from: Ryuu on November 11, 2015, 10:02:51 AM

oh man, the concept of anything becoming like season 3 again gets me all giddy

season 3 was my favorite season

but b ut but but but

league of cleavers?

?? league of warmogs?

?? stupid snowballing?

;_;

(To be fair Season 4 was my favorite so I'm probably not one that is qualified to judge.)

Raikaria · « **Reply #531 on:** November 11, 2015, 10:54:56 AM »

So... MF's W has an 8 second cooldown.

At max rank activateing it gives her max strut [100 MS] and +120% Attackspeed for 3 seconds.

Thing is; if you apply Love Tap to any champion; this goes up to 5 seconds. If you apply it to any champion + any unit; this goes up to it's maximum, 6. [And you should probobly activate W before you start to trade. Or just Q-W because Q will apply it to something else too]

Pretty reliably it's a 5 second 120% attack speed boost. With an 8 second cooldown.

With Essence Reaver giving easy 30% CDR for almost 100% uptime. [5.6 cooldown; 5 duration. It is 100% uptime at 40% CDR or getting 6 seconds]

Anyone else think this sounds a little OP? Even if you are constantly training the same target down for both activations, generally 8 seconds of 120% AS means either you have killed your target already and thus just need to swap targets to continue the loop or you are dead.

Mr. Sacchi · « **Reply #532 on:** November 11, 2015, 11:04:53 AM »

Preaseason: The time where Riot cares very little for numbers since everything is going to change around by a lot so trying to make something actually balanced is effectively a shot in the dark.

You're also forgetting though, in teamfights she won't really have the range to hit more than one target, unless there are either divebuddies in the enemy team (doesn't seem to be too common nowadays) or she isn't in the back line (not the best of options).

Ryuu · « **Reply #533 on:** November 11, 2015, 11:13:54 AM »

Quote from: Toyosatomimi No Sacchi on November 11, 2015, 10:04:29 AM

but b ut but but but

league of cleavers??? league of warmogs??? stupid snowballing?

;_;

(To be fair Season 4 was my favorite so I'm probably not one that is qualified to judge.)

league of aggression actually being the best thing and being super rewarded

league of being able to do things in the jungle after your first camp and not getting fucked for it

league of getting flashes in ganks not setting the jungler behind

league of being able to solo snowball, which is actually bad for the game at large, but it made solo queue more fun

Raikaria · « **Reply #534 on:** November 11, 2015, 08:05:54 PM »

You know if a game goes 45 minuites against 4 ADC and a Rengar...

You probobly should have a Zhonya's Hourglass as Lux.

Ours didn't. She was building one but still. That should be your 2nd item against that sort of comp after your mana item of choice.

I dispaired a little for humanity there. Especially since I was able to 1v1 anyone on the map as Varus; includeing Graves; Vayne and Rengar; because I went BT/BotRK/Thornmail.

Cadmas · « **Reply #535 on:** November 11, 2015, 08:35:40 PM »

I'm more worried about the game going back to the infinite top lane pushing that won worlds.

Iryan · « **Reply #536 on:** November 11, 2015, 09:57:54 PM »

So, assuming you all played some games, preferrably including pvp, what do you think is particularly cool/stronk/op/crap?

Stronk:
1. The mastery that gives critical strikes 15% lifesteal. That one gives such a big boost to the IE powerspike as well as buying the cloak be stronger. And then it just scales from there, as going IE > [crit/AS item] means you actually have a ton of sustain before even thinking of buying a lifesteal item.
2. The Cannon. Especially if you build it as second item after IE (as I did on Draven). The sudden high-range and super-high-damage autoattack is amazing for trades, starting fights, and finishing off fleeing opponents.

Unsure about:
Kog'maw. I haven't played him in an SR pvp match yet, but I am wondering how to build him now. With a large portion of his dps relying on his W, which actually scales not very well with crit, I think you might not even want to build IE on him anymore, but I haven't really done any math to that effect.

I also really like how Lulu's earlygame mana looks like. With the buff to her base regen (and to the blue item line), I can get by just fine even without mana potions. I hope that is not gonna make her too strong in solo lanes.

Also, unrelatedly, it seems everyone and their mother is trying to play ADC in basically every position right now. How surprising. :derp:

Raikaria · « **Reply #537 on:** November 11, 2015, 10:10:37 PM »

Quote from: Iryan on November 11, 2015, 09:57:54 PM

Stronk:
1. The mastery that gives critical strikes 15% lifesteal. That one gives such a big boost to the IE powerspike as well as buying the cloak be stronger. And then it just scales from there, as going IE > [crit/AS item] means you actually have a ton of sustain before even thinking of buying a lifesteal item.

That is either going to get nerfed or result in Yasuo and Tryndamere getting gutted. Honestly I see the latter happening. Also this mastery makes Pantheon basically have infinite lane sustain too as soon as he ranks E because you crit on everything sub 15%; thus auto crits on lasthits thus heals.

I managed to get a Karma Mid game in [One of my guilty pleasures]. I forgot to change to the shield mastery for her; so was left with the pretty useless on Karma Thundergod. Still; stomped a Ryze so hard he abandoned the lane more or less completely, and then had 35% CDR [45% with blue buff].

For those of you who don't know how Karma works:
CDR reduces the cooldown of Mantra
CDR reduces the cooldown of Q/W
Each time Karma damages an enemy champion with a spell; she gets 3 seconds off Mantra

This basically makes Karma 'overclock' on CDR. 45% CDR on Karma is actually a lot more than 45% on Mantra. Especially if you get every tick of W; or hit multiple people with a [Mantra] Q.

Combined with Karma's spam slows and haste with E; and building Ludens + Lichbane [She also gets Mantra CDR on AA's so if you can get a Lichbane in as you kite it's awesome] Karma is just... well... she's going to catch up to you. And you're not catching up to her.

Lategame I was throwing out Mantras every 1 1/2 Q's. Which is about every 5 seconds.

I swear I am one of the few people who play Karma. Let alone Karma mid. But she's one of my main midlaners [Next to Lissandra and Ahri]

Cadmas · « **Reply #538 on:** November 12, 2015, 12:31:34 AM »

Welp bad time to play ranked. Nobody reads the patch notes and are just logging into games blind and no masteries.

Guess it would kill riot to put up some kind of pop up in-client that tells people stuffs been reset.

Ryuu · « **Reply #539 on:** November 12, 2015, 03:34:36 AM »

Quote from: Cadmas on November 12, 2015, 12:31:34 AM

Welp bad time to play ranked. Nobody reads the patch notes and are just logging into games blind and no masteries.

Guess it would kill riot to put up some kind of pop up in-client that tells people stuffs been reset.

literally why would you ever play ranked on patch day, especially the preseason patch day?

"gee, a lot of massive changes have happened and people haven't really worked things out yet. and not only that, but there hasn't been enough data and opportunity to even make balance adjustments on a lot of these changes! GUESS I BETTER PLAY RANKED AND THEN BLAME EVERYONE ELSE"