League of Legends Thread XVI -Double International Salt Mine Edition-

[Mr. Sacchi]

Wouldn't Soraka's Q self-heal help with that though? I mean, Braum takes less damage upfront, yes, but Soraka has the bonus of being able to heal herself back up.

I mean, I get what you're saying - she has to trade so much of her health that unless her Q range was lux-levels of long she'd get killed whenever she tried to actually heal herself, plus the fact that the projectile speed isn't all that great either. But wouldn't it be a matter of just making it easier for her to heal herself after healing her ADC to make her a decent enough pick?

Or am I missing something here? I mean, the solution is obvious enough that riot probably already thought of it, if they didn't do it in the end I'm assuming there's something I'm missing. But hey, discussion!

[Ryuu]

Wouldn't Soraka's Q self-heal help with that though? I mean, Braum takes less damage upfront, yes, but Soraka has the bonus of being able to heal herself back up.

I mean, I get what you're saying - she has to trade so much of her health that unless her Q range was lux-levels of long she'd get killed whenever she tried to actually heal herself, plus the fact that the projectile speed isn't all that great either. But wouldn't it be a matter of just making it easier for her to heal herself after healing her ADC to make her a decent enough pick?

Or am I missing something here? I mean, the solution is obvious enough that riot probably already thought of it, if they didn't do it in the end I'm assuming there's something I'm missing. But hey, discussion!

it's basically what you said. the range of the spell is really low, so soraka puts herself at risk trying to hit it. if you do it from the bush, someone like thresh or blitz could have a straight line to hook her while she casts, and then she'll just get rekt b/c she's squishy as fuck and already wounded. if you do it from the creep wave, then all the enemy has to do is stand in the wave. they can still probably avoid it because the missile speed is so insanely slow, but even if they don't, the wave will push towards them and make soraka the immobile easier to gank. it's really easy to play around her self-heal, so it ends up being a lose-lose for soraka most of the time unless the enemy makes a very large mistake.

i think the bigger problem with soraka is that healing is just really fucking shitty to play against, so the game is healthier overall if she's garbage. they could make her more viable by either lowering the amount of self-damage she does by healing, or increasing the missile speed of her Q so she can actually hit people, but i'd question if the game is really better off if soraka is viable(i don't think it is, personally).

but yeah, that's basically why soraka isn't played. she has two significant upsides(being able to heal everyone, and being able to heal someone closeby frequently without going instantly OOM), but for those upsides, she has an incredible host of weaknesses. tbh, i'm not sure if her current kit could ever be really viable at high level play anyway(unless they make it stupid broken, of course), b/c you remove so much map pressure and utility from your support by having soraka on your team. no one is going to fear a jungler/soraka invade for vision like they would if the support was braum or thresh instead.

[Widermelonz]

I think Soraka's in pretty good spot right now, she's a fine pick in solo q. And I think she's played pretty often too, like in the upper half of play rates for supports. Personally, I think it's only when you get into high-ranked 5s that it'd become necessary for the support to have multi-purpose utility, like Tahm Ali Thresh and Braum.

Also, the top/mid soraka meta that we had in the LCS some time ago was dumb, I hope it never comes back into competitive.

[Garlyle]

The funny thing is that Riot's most recent statements about her are that they think she might be a bit overly powerful at the moment, since she has a tendency to change the rules of engagement; though it definitely seems that her lack of powerful "direct" playmaking and weakness of being that targetable squishy that balances it out.

I think there is something to be stated for her global presence in terms of pressure though.  Braum or Thresh can't reverse a fight from across the map.  Well, unless they bring Teleport, or are actually Shen; but both of those have to leave their lanes entirely to do that.  Wish is very powerful because of this, not just in teamfights; but being only available at 6+ and having such a lengthy cooldown does mean there's a long downtime on that pressure.  That it also requires great map awareness and/or communication does make it trickier too.

She's not someone I'd firstpick into a blind teamcomp, but I do see her as plenty capable.

[Iryan]

As someone who likes playing Soraka, basically, if you
1. Can land your starfall relatively reliably
2. Have at least one teammate that is playing well enough (or fed enough) that latching on to them and protecting them will do a lot for your team.

You are gonna do good enough.
(note that if your team is generally not bad, you should of course try to save as many people as you reasonably can, not just go pocket protector, but yeah)

If 2 is not the case, and the enemy team doesn't throw the game, you are kinda outta luck
If 1 is not the case, you want to practice with it more.

At any rate, you definitely want to build a lot of AP, and start building it early, so that you can heal a lot of damage without immediately killing yourself, and so that you get a lot of health back from landing your starfalls. ...also to deal more damage.


Disclaimer: I am Silver/Gold tier. If you want to become a Pokemon Master Tier player, my advice is probably useless.

[Raikaria]

So I've recently been banging my head against a very, very stupid person that genuinely believes that the existence of Grievous Wounds is what makes Soraka bad and they should remove Grievous Wounds from the game. The same person also genuinely believes that Jungle is Kindred's worst role. Yes, even when compared to support.

Now, obviously enough this person is stupid, but it got me thinking -- why exactly isn't Soraka used? Is she just off-meta or she just genuinely bad? Can somebody that actually plays Soraka shed some light here? I mean, an AoE Silence + Snare is nothing to sneeze at, and she has a lot of healing power, especially from her ultimate, so that makes me kind of confused as to why she isn't used.

In organized play people will just target and dive the Soraka first. She also provides almost no actual lane pressure.

Soraka is becoming more and more popular in SoloQ however because people don't shoot the medic first or all-in somewhere else on the map for Soraka to go 'nope'. Also she can mess up assassins by putting Eclipse under their target and then spamhealing. She'll never be really really popular unless she's insanely OP however because unlike the always popular Thresh she can't make plays.

Also Grevious Wounds in no way makes Soraka bad. Her ultimate even removes it beforehand. That's like saying Dr.Mundo/Swain/Vladimir is unplayable because Grievous Wounds exists. [Swain is probobly the closest to being 'unplayable' but that's due to his gold requirement combined with no actual farming method; especially once people start grouping. Not Grievous Wounds. Turns out needing a lot of gold and not being able to farm is a bad combo.]

[Bardiche]

It's funny how people take my advice on things now and think I know a lot about the game, even though I was Bronze at the start of the season and I have been saying the same things. :V

[Mr. Sacchi]

It's funny how people take my advice on things now and think I know a lot about the game, even though I was Bronze at the start of the season and I have been saying the same things. :V

Well, you are plat now so I guess that says something, right?

I am in a similar situation though, my rank has been always on the low side (never above silver rofl) but that's mostly because I don't play ranked. The people I play with know I can consistently deliver in the games I participate in (unless I'm toplane) so they tend to listen to me regardless :V

Aside from one certain guy that always gets himself killed when I tell him to back off and he's like "why i'm nasus i'm immortal lololololololol" but that's the exception.

[Cadmas]

Wish riot would stop putting these jungle items in the game that gain charges for killing monsters and ignoring your team mates.

Enemy has 3 hyper carries? Better go sated and not gank.

[Ryuu]

Wish riot would stop putting these jungle items in the game that gain charges for killing monsters and ignoring your team mates.

Enemy has 3 hyper carries? Better go sated and not gank.

uh hyper carries typically aren't great laners. why are you not just winning lane against them?

it's not the jungler's job to hold your hand through your lane. you should be able to know how to pressure your lane and minimize risk on your own. you should be able to pressure a weak lane and then use that advantage to get wards out and make yourself gank immune. like if needing jungle pressure against a weak lane is a consistent problem you're having, maybe you should, you know, look at the other common factors involved in that problem. like you.

[Cadmas]

uh hyper carries typically aren't great laners. why are you not just winning lane against them?

it's not the jungler's job to hold your hand through your lane. you should be able to know how to pressure your lane and minimize risk on your own. you should be able to pressure a weak lane and then use that advantage to get wards out and make yourself gank immune. like if needing jungle pressure against a weak lane is a consistent problem you're having, maybe you should, you know, look at the other common factors involved in that problem. like you.

You know you can lose games and never die in lane. Basically nobody started dying until everyone was at 200+ farm, and leblanc, ireila, and vayne kill anything they want with just farm equaling something like 10 kills.

Having 0 jungle pressure really hurts your team. I can't cover top, gank bot and hold mid. It's not the junglers job to hold hands, but to be at least part of your team and do things.
This is why I hate the idea of Sated because it encourages a jungler to do nothing in a game while the other jungler is running amok on your team mates while your jungler is crying "play safe, I'm farming for 30 minutes."

This isn't about my shitty playing. It's about why is there an item in the game that actively discourages teamwork?

[Aba Matindesu!]

The question is why Irelia and Leblanc weren't able to get kills before then.

[Raikaria]

Lyte confirms Captains will not have 3 bans in the 'new ranked system'

What does this mean? Is it power being taken from 1stpick? Or does it mean we're finally getting more bans after the champion roster has over tripled in size since the system was created? [Thereby 'nerfing' bans to less than 33% of their effect]

[Bardiche]

You know you can lose games and never die in lane. Basically nobody started dying until everyone was at 200+ farm, and leblanc, ireila, and vayne kill anything they want with just farm equaling something like 10 kills.

Having 0 jungle pressure really hurts your team. I can't cover top, gank bot and hold mid. It's not the junglers job to hold hands, but to be at least part of your team and do things.
This is why I hate the idea of Sated because it encourages a jungler to do nothing in a game while the other jungler is running amok on your team mates while your jungler is crying "play safe, I'm farming for 30 minutes."

Just going to point out, it takes about ~15 minutes of dedicated AFK farming in jungle to get your Devourer max stacked (provided you take dragon), and it takes me about 20 to 25 minutes to max stack Devourer with ganks for my team. It's more an issue of bad junglers than it is an issue of Sated Devourer if they're AFK from the game until 30 minutes.

[NekoNekoRex]

Lyte confirms Captains will not have 3 bans in the 'new ranked system'

What does this mean? Is it power being taken from 1stpick? Or does it mean we're finally getting more bans after the champion roster has over tripled in size since the system was created? [Thereby 'nerfing' bans to less than 33% of their effect]

Probably some comnination of more bans and other team members getting ban picks.

[Cadmas]

Just going to point out, it takes about ~15 minutes of dedicated AFK farming in jungle to get your Devourer max stacked (provided you take dragon), and it takes me about 20 to 25 minutes to max stack Devourer with ganks for my team. It's more an issue of bad junglers than it is an issue of Sated Devourer if they're AFK from the game until 30 minutes.

I feel any amount of afk farming is bad for your team unless you're out soloing dragons so there doesn't need to be an item to encourage it.

15 minutes is also a long time when most games tip in 5 minutes and snowball from there.

[Raikaria]

Welp; dosen't look like SKT is gonna drop a game after all. Was confident OG would lose but at least go 3-1.

I mean OG did push them significantly further than anyone else in the tournament so far [T3 towers taken when SKT had yet to lose even a T1] but still; unless things change in Game 3 [SKT is ahead at the time I am posting this] it looks like I was wrong about OG not getting swept.

And seeing this BO5 after KT/KOO makes me even more sure that SKT is to Korea what Season 4 Cloud 9 was to NA, another level.

[Bardiche]

I feel any amount of afk farming is bad for your team unless you're out soloing dragons so there doesn't need to be an item to encourage it.

Nah, it's not the jungler's job to be disrupting your lanes or pushing them ahead. In spite of popular belief, the jungler isn't the laners' bitch and AFK farming is sometimes the correct choice to make. If your jungler picks a Devourer Jungler, or builds it unconventionally, you need to play your lane out accordingly. For example, if my team has a Warwick? I know he will not gank until at least level 6, so there's no point in setting up for him or allowing the enemy team to get ahead of me in lane.

15 minutes is also a long time when most games tip in 5 minutes and snowball from there.

If you find the game has progressed to 15 minutes and it has snowballed so hard that even the jungler reaching the Sated Devourer power spike isn't able to off-set what's happening, you need to also examine your own play. In fact, if your game has tipped after five minutes and snowballs in the enemy team's favour, the problem is the laners, not the jungler.

Laners are some of the most entitled pricks who believe the only purpose a jungler has is to get them kills and win the lane for them, but that's simply not true. Your lane is your responsibility. If you are getting ganked by the enemy jungler too much, learn to ward. If your jungler is rushing Sated Devourer and not ganking as a result, play with this knowledge in mind.

I'm not saying your jungler is making the correct choice by AFK farming, but him making an incorrect choice does not validate you making incorrect choices.

[Iryan]

I feel any amount of afk farming is bad for your team unless you're out soloing dragons so there doesn't need to be an item to encourage it.

15 minutes is also a long time when most games tip in 5 minutes and snowball from there.

If I am not mistaken, Scuttle (which provides river control for the team) gives 2 stacks and Dragon (which should be the main thing for the jungler to worry about in the early~mid game anyways, together with looking out for good gank opportunities) gives 5, while kills/assists still provide stacks (and make it more likely to take dragon, which then provides more stacks still). So while devourer rewards farming the jungle (which all junglers do to varying degrees), it also rewards doing things that are good for the team as a whole anyway. So basically it is mainly an item that gives you a big powerspike but needs a certain amount of time/effort in a given game to reach that powerspike. It is an investment to be weaker earlier to get stronger later. It does not translate into "you should afk farm the camps in your jungle without paying attention to your team" at all if you ask me. It is not like feral flare where you would scale indefinitely AND primarily from killing the monsters in your own jungle.

Disregarding the fact that, depending on matchup, a lot of laning champions end up trying to afk farm as much as they can anyway. Botlane hardcarry? Tank vs. tank farmlane @ top? Nasus?  :V

Anyways, a Jungler should be on the lookout for good ganking opportunities and take them if available, but 1. this applies to laners as well, it is just that due to the nature of the jungle the jungler will be the most likely to be able to do that, and 2. if the jungler is just farming, they may simply not have seen any good opportunities for a gank. Considering that a failed gank puts the jungler behind in gold and levels, unless he is pretty sure the gank will be successful (or there is nothing to kill in reasonable range), farming can be the right option.

[Bardiche]

Just want to point out that a "failed gank" isn't the only thing that can put a jungler back. A successful gank can also put them back, but it should be worth the effort. A good jungler doesn't make a gank a binary thing. It's not "success" or "failure" depending on resounding success; getting Summoners down, sending the enemy laner out of lane or simply forcing them to invest heavily in Wards at the cost of progressing their build are all components of successful ganks. In the case a gank doesn't end with a kill, a jungler will (and should) "tax" their laner by taking some minions for experience and gold in order to keep up. (Not always)

Ganks are also mildly successful if it inspires the enemy laner to stop going all-in and play cautiously to avoid a gank resulting in their death. Simply put, good ganks give your side an advantage. Failed ganks do not. "An advantage" is more broad than "you killed the enemy", though that is usually one of the major things you gain. Other things like sending the enemy bot lane back to base and then taking tower or dragon, for example, are good too.

This is why I say junglers aren't just "the laners' bitch": people in-lane tend to think they deserve the jungler ganking for them, even if they do fuck all to set it up. If you a) push the enemies under their tower, b) don't have any CC, c) don't poke your enemy at all and leave them at 100% or d) ALL OF THEM BECAUSE YOU AREAN ASSHOLE, you should not be demanding ganks and expecting the jungler to immediately do so.

Gotta realise you're making the jungler give up gold and experience in order to get you ahead/stop you from feeding. Least you can do is all you can to prevent a gank from being a waste of time.



Also, Scuttle does give 2 stacks, Dragon gives 5 stacks, Kills/Assists provide 1 stack. Dragon>Scuttle>Camps>Ganks if you want to build stacks, though the most reliable is camps. (Scuttle/Dragon being contested objectives; scuttlers less so in lower elo)

[Mr. Sacchi]

And this is the exact reason why I mostly play Yi when I get stuck with jungle. I know I can clear the jungle like a motherfucker and sated devourer allows me to carry. Because most of the time my team won't exactly be useful.

Then again, now I have Kindred to do the jungling, so maybe that's good too.

Also, what should the skill level priority be on kindred? I've been going Q -> E -> W but idk if I'm right.

[Ryuu]

This isn't about my shitty playing. It's about why is there an item in the game that actively discourages teamwork?

if your other lanes are having problems, why aren't you ganking for them? you don't have to be a jungler to gank. you can literally gank as a fucking adc if you have to.

also all the shit bardiche posted is basically right too. stop blaming your failures on your teammates

Lyte confirms Captains will not have 3 bans in the 'new ranked system'

What does this mean? Is it power being taken from 1stpick? Or does it mean we're finally getting more bans after the champion roster has over tripled in size since the system was created? [Thereby 'nerfing' bans to less than 33% of their effect]

i was talking about this with mai waifu and we came up with two ideas that seem the most likely:

a) bans could be communal voting, so all 5 players would vote for bans 3+ times and the most voted bans get banned

b) instead of the captain having all the bans, 3+ players are randomly chosen from the team to have one ban each

i use "+" because this would also be a good time to increase the ban cap if they wanted.

[Bardiche]

And this is the exact reason why I mostly play Yi when I get stuck with jungle. I know I can clear the jungle like a motherfucker and sated devourer allows me to carry. Because most of the time my team won't exactly be useful.

Then again, now I have Kindred to do the jungling, so maybe that's good too.

Also, what should the skill level priority be on kindred? I've been going Q -> E -> W but idk if I'm right.

My own build is R->Q->W->E. Lowered W cooldown for more Q spam, and per-point and per-cast, I think W gives more damage since it hits multiple times. Leveling E gives +30 base damage, leveling W gives +5 base damage per-attack, so if Wolf attacks six times in a team fight, it's equal. Six Wolf hits in a team fight happens easily! I also value W more than E, since it serves as a deterrent to chasers, helps you Q more, and is a good harassment tool.

Devourer on Kindred's good too. Don't buy into the "BUT MUH 4th HIT ONLY" baloney, the attack speed is super good on her too! (and that 4th hit hits like a truck with Kindred Passive + BotRK + Devourer damage!)
Warrior's also good on her though, and certainly valid for early ganks. I just think Devourer scales better and, if you're playing Kindred, you're kind of going for scaling hyper-carry lategame anyway.

you don't have to be a jungler to gank

As Support, I like ganking mid after first back.

[Mr. Sacchi]

My own build is R->Q->W->E. Lowered W cooldown for more Q spam, and per-point and per-cast, I think W gives more damage since it hits multiple times. Leveling E gives +30 base damage, leveling W gives +5 base damage per-attack, so if Wolf attacks six times in a team fight, it's equal. Six Wolf hits in a team fight happens easily! I also value W more than E, since it serves as a deterrent to chasers, helps you Q more, and is a good harassment tool.

Devourer on Kindred's good too. Don't buy into the "BUT MUH 4th HIT ONLY" baloney, the attack speed is super good on her too! (and that 4th hit hits like a truck with Kindred Passive + BotRK + Devourer damage!)
Warrior's also good on her though, and certainly valid for early ganks. I just think Devourer scales better and, if you're playing Kindred, you're kind of going for scaling hyper-carry lategame anyway.

It's hard to notice the W damage since I mostly just use it for the lower cd on Q, although I have indeed noticed the shitty cd. I'll give W second a try, thanks.

And I've been building mostly devourer since like I said I tend to need to carry regardless of my role, although I'm not sure still of a build for Kindred. I tend to go devourer/zerkers/botrk and then... I seriously don't know what to build next on her. The three seem like enough for straight up damage, so what else can I do, just build last whisper?

[Bardiche]

It's hard to notice the W damage since I mostly just use it for the lower cd on Q, although I have indeed noticed the shitty cd. I'll give W second a try, thanks.

It's pretty big, though. Scales with your Passive (50% of your Passive damage) as well as bonus attack speed (50% of your bonus attack speed added to base attack time), but like any DoT it's sometimes hard to appreciate its damage. One of the tricks I like to use is to hit W, move away from my opponent to the outer circle, then engage them when they get in range. People don't appreciate the damage it does on either side, so they take a few free hits from Wolf before starting the fight proper with me.

And I've been building mostly devourer since like I said I tend to need to carry regardless of my role, although I'm not sure still of a build for Kindred. I tend to go devourer/zerkers/botrk and then... I seriously don't know what to build next on her. The three seem like enough for straight up damage, so what else can I do, just build last whisper?

I tend to go Devourer->BotRK->Berserkers, then depending on the situation I'll get Black Cleaver, Zephyr or Last Whisper, followed by Last Whisper (if I didn't get it already), followed by Guardian Angel/Zz'rot Portal. Trying to consider Phantom Dancer into the build for better kiting, so I'm not completely reliant on Q/BotRK/BC procs to kite people though! BC isn't always built (certainly not when your top laner has it), so your movement speed in fights isn't all that high. The Zz'rot Portal helps you split-push, defend off-lanes, siege harder, anti-siege a bit better, scout, distract, AND it gives movement speed near turrets/portals and pretty good defences, so it's often my go-to item even if not everyone agrees it's absolutely awesome.

EDIT: Sometimes, you don't get that far in your build. Note that I did have 3.3k bank.

Top didn't need ganks because Darius was beating Fiora hard (who underestimated him for being Silver). Bot lane had Soraka, so they also didn't need ganks. I walked past mid a few times to the point that Vel'Koz didn't dare pass his half of the lane. This has nice results; Lee ends up believing I'm camping mid and he's free to gank bot and top, but as you see I ended up ganking bot/top shortly after he does. This is because I only passed through mid every time I went from Scuttler to Scuttler, building up my Devourer (and finishing it at 15 minutes!). The Scuttlers meant we had good vision, and a movement speed bonus to boot whenever we responded to seeing Lee moving towards one lane and initiating the counter-gank.

Would've been cooler if laners had managed to move accordingly and avoid dying, but every gank Lee Sin performed ended in marginal benefits at best, since there was always a counter-gank initiated. Fun fact: Lee Sin had 100% kill participation and got the most flame from his team.

[Garlyle]

BAN STUFF.

My personal hope is that every player on a team also gets a single ban.  Ups the ban count, no more captains deciding the bans.

I don't play Ranked anymore (haven't for a long time) but I am curious what the changes will be.

[Iryan]

Since I usually play support if possible, I tend to go mid for a bit of assistance when I feel it will be useful and there is not much I can currently do in bot/for dragon, but since I usually don't feel comfortable leaving my adc 1v2 in their lane, that will normally only happen if either1. at least one bot turret has been downed or 2. at least one enemy botlaner is assisting top or mid as well or 3. :derp:

My personal hope is that every player on a team also gets a single ban.  Ups the ban count, no more captains deciding the bans.

This is what I thought, would make a lot of sense. Of course, it would reaise the mimimum number of champions required for ranked, but any ban increase would do so, and there are more cheap champions available than they used to, due to price reductions, so...

[Suikama]

And honestly I don't see KT or KOO beating Fnatic after they wrecked EDG.

:justasplanned:

[Mr. Sacchi]

:justasplanned:

well to be fair the first two games were super close and the second game was lost because of an ego pick that ended up going mega wrong, and fnatic does have a history of tilting so

but yeah, koo tigers 3-0'd fnatic, finals skt vs koo

still rooting for skt

[Raikaria]

...

Well; KOO improved drastically after their games with EDG. They looked a lot weaker than Fnatic did in those games. But this series they looked a lot stronger than they did up until now.

Still; if EU is 3-0'ing China; and Korea is 3-0'ing EU... and NA isn't even getting out of groups... well... Korea is apparently in another dimension to the rest of the world. The gap isn't closing. It's China falling to our level.

I'm still happy Semis was 2 EU teams. I'm still happy EU redeemed itself after Season 4. I'm just a little surprised at how much more KOO had up their sleeves.

And also this probobly means an SKT 3-0 finals. You know; SKT going 3-0 against KT in the Korean finals and hardly losing in Korea and all. Not even much point watching the finals it'll just be an SKT sweep. FNC vs SKT would have had an element of the unknown. But we KNOW SKT is a level above the other Korean teams. For all of the upsets this worlds is gonna be as much of a stomp as it was in S4 for SSG.

Also there goes my Top 2%entile pickems. [Until today I was 3 points from the 2nd highest rank; which is like the 0.73%].

Fun fact: The only bracket stage games I got wrong so far in pickems were those where KOO were involved. [KOO/KT KOO/FNC]