Author Topic: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion  (Read 391161 times)

N-Forza

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #270 on: October 18, 2012, 02:34:05 AM »
That whole chapter was a reference to how the cherry blossoms in the actual real world have been blooming later and later. They used to bloom around the end of March and now it's closer to mid-/late-April.

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #271 on: October 18, 2012, 04:51:34 PM »
I always saw it as her seeing it in Gensokyo proper one day, then popping over to Yuyu's pad the next day to see more.
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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #272 on: October 20, 2012, 03:32:00 AM »
I can actually see Shizuha being playable.  SoPM states that she envies Minoriko's popularity, and this game is about grabbing the attention of humans, so...

In fact, all the deities barring Shinki may be playable, since this game is about battle of religions after all.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2012, 03:48:48 AM by game2011 »

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #273 on: October 20, 2012, 04:48:11 PM »
I can actually see Shizuha being playable.  SoPM states that she envies Minoriko's popularity, and this game is about grabbing the attention of humans, so...

That ain't gonna happen. Playable Akis would be too good to be true. :V

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #274 on: October 21, 2012, 12:21:05 AM »
That ain't gonna happen. Playable Akis would be too good to be true. :V
I'm crossing my fingers for all god and faith-related touhous to be playable.
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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #275 on: October 21, 2012, 02:40:33 AM »
I'd only want the Akis with a 2 vs 1 Ice Climbers-ish gimmick.

Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #276 on: October 21, 2012, 06:29:32 PM »
My ideal lineup;
Hakurei and Kirisame (Obviously)
Maybe Sakuya
Sanae, even though I don't really like her
A Prismriver (Lunasa preferably)
Reisen
Kanako or Suwako
Mokou and Kaguya
A few th12/th13 characters (Unfortunately, I don't know much about them)
Oh, and Utsuho.

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #277 on: October 22, 2012, 02:02:14 AM »
I had a dream last night where the game was released and Kyouko was playable. I didn't even play the game, I just saw that and immediately jumped out of my chair to run outside and scream, "FUCK YES!"

As for the Aki Sisters, I honestly can't see one being playable without the other. I liked the idea of an Ice-Climber gimmick, but I wonder how it would work exactly. With only one health bar and all. The AI may not be reliable either, if that's the case.

What about Hina? She probably wouldn't have much of a reason for joining the fray, but she is a Goddess, no?
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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #278 on: October 22, 2012, 02:06:59 AM »
If Hina is in it, I'll cry of joy.

As for the Aki sisters, I used to be open to multiple characters considered as a single one.

Until I played what's-it-called, where you could use the three fairies of light. Sounds useful, to be three instead of one right?

Unless it makes the opponent able to beat up three weak, powerless characters sharing one health bar at once, making the match last no less than 3 seconds.

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #279 on: October 22, 2012, 02:10:51 AM »
There are lots of fighting games with double characters. Usually you control one and have moves that control the other, like Devo in Jojo or Carl in Blazblue.

Or you could even have it be like that, but be able to have them switch places, like Hisui + Kohaku in Melty.

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #280 on: October 22, 2012, 04:02:24 AM »
Something like Sakutaro and Ange would also work well if we had an Aki sister combo and would fit the whole 'aspect of gods' thing we already have with Suwako.
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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #281 on: October 22, 2012, 04:06:55 AM »
There are lots of fighting games with double characters. Usually you control one and have moves that control the other, like Devo in Jojo or Carl in Blazblue.

Or you could even have it be like that, but be able to have them switch places, like Hisui + Kohaku in Melty.

Yeah, that's the right way to do it. I was responding to the ice-climbers idea, as THEY are both out and hittable at the same time. I really want the Aki sisters in the game, and it would make a LOT of sense for them to be in it.

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #282 on: October 22, 2012, 05:09:58 AM »
There are ways to make all varieties of double team characters work.

"Standby and Tag out" Types, where the two characters serve effectively as a stance character with some variety  in how they are tagged out. If they tag in and out into the same place it really is like a stance character 1:1, but if one is in standby and the tag out starts controling them from their own position, you get something like Hisui/Kohaku with back and forth juggle combos. This kind is the simplest to balance since it is in most ways the same as a tried and true stance change character; just make sure neither one of the characters cover matchups perfectly over the other.

"Carl" Types, for lack of a better word, where the primary character has their own moveset, and the other character acts as an extension of the first's moveset by standing by, teleporting in for various assist moves, or otherwise being given orders by the primary character. AquaPazza is full of Carl Type assists. This kind is also quite easy to balance since the design by itself lends to complex set ups and an intensely strong neutral game. Just ensure that the reward for their strong neutral game is on the lower side and they'll have to make use of their better traits just as every other character does to compensate, with the added benefit being that those better traits are some of the most important ones in the game.

Constantly Active or "Ice Climber" Types- where both characters are always out with an active hitbox and can be tossed around and comboed individually with impunity. This kind of character is difficult to balance, but very possible; it is just difficult to balance because it is the newest variety of double team character base out there so nothing has been tried and proven. I feel that the important thing about making this kind of character  is to ensure that if the characters are designed such that they can be seperated, or that one can be killed before the other, that the single character still needs traits and a workable moveset to put in work necessary to do small setups and short rewards. They have to work harder and use their neutral game to the best, knowing that they can not get super powerful rewards. So they have to be competent on their own, with a weak reward game- Very Low Risk, Very Low Reward, if you want to think of it that way. On the other hand, when the character is twofold, they have to be carefully made such that they do not get too strong of a reward either, or the strong neutral game the character has has no drawback. So this character base comes down to three aspects- Keep them from being too good with both characters present,  keep them from being too horrible with only one character, and keep both states of the character differentiated in favour of wanting to keep both of them. You can see why this is difficult to balance, because these aspects are almost contradictory. Well that is why it helps to look at this character in the Risk vs Reward sense. With one character, they are a low risk, low reward character that has to work hard to get multiple smaller hits over a long period of time; They get easy hits in but they aren't super threatening by themself, and one small mistake can mean the opponent gets the opening to do a more rewarding combo on them. With two characters, they are still effectively the same low risk, so the simple question is, how good should their reward be with two characters? You make them low risk high reward and they can roflstomp most of the cast and get beaten by the other small portion-  they become a polarising design, not very fun at all for either party. Myself?  I think the best reward is still a little on the lower side, and only marginally better than with one character. The reason being that with two, the task of getting single hits becomes much easier, and setups become a simple affair, so they become  a very low risk character, knowing that they have more lenience than other characters are allowed. So the goals are then, hopefully, met well- With two characters they are a high-tier character, and with one, they are still a solid Mid-Tier that is far from helpless. All the second character does is make it a little bit easier for the player, a little brace to fall back on, so to say.


I can't think of any other double  team varieties myself, but anyone else is welcome to comment on the archtype.
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Amraphenson

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #283 on: October 22, 2012, 10:01:17 AM »
II didn't elaborate earlier, but Ange and Sakutaro from the Umineko game are a sorta pseudo dollmaster (which is what Carl is) type. The assist is summoned with a special and only stays out for a limited time, meaning the character generally becomes a lot more threatening for those short moments; Ange's combos extend and her pressure is ridiculous while Sakutaro is out. You could kinda consider Sanae to be like this, if you run alt214 suwako trap and alt623 wind tunnel; the game changes drastically while Sanae. Has those two out.

Dlanor from the same game and the miko from Arcana Heart (name escapes me) are projectile types, where her specials are actually the assists. The extra characters are glorified projectiles; Sanae in soku and Phoenix Wright from UMvC3 are like this. Not much to comment on except that projectiles of this sort tend to be stronger but have a cooldown period, like Sanae again, to compensate. This would probably work good for Byakuren.

Mostly good analysis there iK. Good example of the ice climbers type are, well, the ice climbers. They were lackustre until people discovered the chain grabs and disjoints, but we all know how bad a solo ice climber is. Some of the characters from P4 arena (Yukiko in partixular) are a newer example of this type that work well, and some may consider the dollmaster type to be a subtype of this one. To be honest, I think such characters need to be high risk high reward just to compensate for the complexity, not easy low rewards just for existing. In general assist ype characters are high risk high reward: Sanae's game is crippled in comparison to others without her gods, Carl has the lowest hp in all of BB, Ange's normals have very odd spacing and her other specials are all telegraphed, etc. This shouldnt change with a iceclimbers like character, or else it's just boring. Lowrisk low reward, slow chipdown characters are boring to watch and play.

comeon tasofro, random yamame. Make me happy.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 10:13:37 AM by Amra »
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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #284 on: October 22, 2012, 02:02:04 PM »
What about Hina? She probably wouldn't have much of a reason for joining the fray, but she is a Goddess, no?

Akyuu claims that Hina's not really a god because she doesn't require faith. She's just a friendly type of youkai that eats misfortune.

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #285 on: October 22, 2012, 05:47:27 PM »
Akyuu claims that Hina's not really a god because she doesn't require faith. She's just a friendly type of youkai that eats misfortune.

...I forgot about that. So much for Hina... :qq: Even though doing it without any obligations or desire for faith just shows how much of an awesomely nice person she is.

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #286 on: October 22, 2012, 07:31:56 PM »
If Hina is in she'd better have Hinaface for her taunt animation or all is for naught.

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #287 on: October 22, 2012, 08:30:20 PM »
Maybe Parsee will be in this game for being jealous of all the faith gatherers 'cause they got more faith than her XD probably won't since she has to watch the bridge and all that

Ikari

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #288 on: October 22, 2012, 08:47:15 PM »
probably won't since she has to watch the bridge and all that

Ultimate Attack: She summons the bridge and smashes it on the heads of the unbelievers!

*Ahem* Probably not. Still, I'd like to have a character from SA. Any of them.

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #289 on: October 22, 2012, 08:50:07 PM »
Ultimate Attack: She summons the bridge and smashes it on the heads of the unbelievers!

Bridge Sign: Gotta Smash 'em All!

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #290 on: October 22, 2012, 08:55:50 PM »
Koishi will be in the game so she can be curious about the other religions while stealing all their sweets and delicious foods Byakuren finds her and tries to take her in :V

Ikari

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #291 on: October 22, 2012, 10:02:50 PM »
Koishi will be in the game so she can be curious about the other religions while stealing all their sweets and delicious foods Byakuren finds her and tries to take her in :V

Koishi can pretty much be put in any and every plot. Seriously, just write ''So she's wandering around, people try to talk to her, she fights them, she goes on'' and you can make an entire story. The fact she can be placed in any game ever only makes me disappointed when I see she's completely missing in 95 % of every fan games.

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #292 on: October 22, 2012, 10:52:24 PM »
Koishi will be in the game so she can be curious about the other religions while stealing all their sweets and delicious foods Byakuren finds her and tries to take her in :V
Again? Well, Koishi's a free spirit so she wasn't technically taken in to begin with.

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #293 on: October 22, 2012, 11:31:41 PM »
Koishi can pretty much be put in any and every plot. Seriously, just write ''So she's wandering around, people try to talk to her, she fights them, she goes on'' and you can make an entire story. The fact she can be placed in any game ever only makes me disappointed when I see she's completely missing in 95 % of every fan games.
What are you talking about? She's in more than half of them, don't you remember? :V

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #294 on: October 22, 2012, 11:32:20 PM »
What are you talking about? She's in more than half of them, don't you remember? :V

Don't remember  :derp: Name some please.

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #295 on: October 23, 2012, 12:28:49 AM »
Don't remember  :derp: Name some please.
They were probably saying she could be in any of them but hiding her presence.

I'm not really into the fighters, but I think she could be intteresting if she had some sort of quirk where some of her abilities could make her unnoticed by the opposing character(translating to her attacks being unblockable or something but weaker for a length of time) or something.
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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #296 on: October 23, 2012, 12:42:21 AM »
They were probably saying she could be in any of them but hiding her presence.

I'm not really into the fighters, but I think she could be intteresting if she had some sort of quirk where some of her abilities could make her unnoticed by the opposing character(translating to her attacks being unblockable or something but weaker for a length of time) or something.

I feel stupid now.

Reisen had her invisibility in Hisoutensoku, but that's the sad part of invisibility in fighting games; The AI still knows where you are, and in order for you to know where you are, so does your opponent. I say either make them weaker and unblockable, or make them always score a ''Counter'' hit. (Which does more damage and knockback).

If Koishi appears, I demand 4th wall breaking.

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #297 on: October 23, 2012, 01:03:19 AM »
Another especulation that I have (actually it's a possibility that I take into consideration in every work that ZUN isn't the one making the drawings) is the insertion of MEN in the game. As much as I myself find it unkely , it is still a possibility and I welcome the idea of having more male humans/youkai with humanoid form in the touhouverse.
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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #298 on: October 23, 2012, 01:04:00 AM »
"Carl" Types, for lack of a better word

Lieselotte types, you mean :(  (sounds a possibility for Alice, Yukari/Ran and Seiga)

speaking of assist types, I'd like either Kanako to be playable, or to be *more* integral/useful to Sanae's gameplay (like, for example, Maori).
Also, this game needs at least one grappler. (in b4 Suika sucks)

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Amraphenson

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #299 on: October 23, 2012, 01:23:57 AM »
I feel stupid now.

Reisen had her invisibility in Hisoutensoku, but that's the sad part of invisibility in fighting games; The AI still knows where you are, and in order for you to know where you are, so does your opponent. I say either make them weaker and unblockable, or make them always score a ''Counter'' hit. (Which does more damage and knockback).

If Koishi appears, I demand 4th wall breaking.

You have to take into account the actual player versus player though. Reisen had sick wakeup game because of that invisibility; jump into overheads, jump into double overhead, empty jump into low, empty jump into overhead...the invisibility itself was a great asset and we can't just balance based on the AI.
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