東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion

[teefa85]

Looking cool.  Loved how the declarations look in this game.

It also amused me to see Ran and Chen standing on the ground, while Yukari decides to go get a seat on the shrine roof (Reimu probably just looooves that one).  Probably so nobody can swipe any snacks she might decide to gap in undetected (I know she wasn't doing that in the actual picture, but the thought of her watching the fight like she's going to a sporting match amuses me).

[Ikari]

My greatest nightmare of all things ever imaginable, an IaMP spellcard declaration mechanic.

I just hope we can have more than one or two spellcards, or that's just dramatically doing many steps back.

Aside from that, I love the sprites and the backgrounds. The attacks aren't as flashy as SWR/UNL, but still a bit more than IaMP.

[Gpop]

Honestly I'm happy with the IaMP declaration system. I mean, choosing spell cards are similar to choosing Supers in Street Fighter 3rd Strike or choosing Ultras in Street Fighter 4

[homing curvy laser]

It makes it more likely the game won't have the amazing diversity of spell cards SWR/12.3 had, though
Also, animations for the beginning/end of rounds! It only took Tasofro this long!

[Ikari]

It makes it more likely the game won't have the amazing diversity of spell cards SWR/12.3 had, though
Also, animations for the beginning/end of rounds! It only took Tasofro this long!

I'm completely with you there. I'll miss the enormous variety Dx

I agree, the animations at the beginning/end are a very nice detail. Makes it even more Fighting Game-ish.

[Amraphenson]

It removes the horrible task of having to balance EVERY SINGLE THING though, which is a logical choice I can't fault them for.

[AnonymousPondScum]

Better to do a few things spectacularly than everything horribly. :V

And at any rate all I want to know is who's gonna be visiting from the Myouren Temple.

[teefa85]

I figure we'll find out who a few other people are when the demo is released; maybe they'll introduce like one from each faction as your opponents in that.

[Kosachi]

As for the spirit gauge, Marisa did do something at about 1:21 that removed all the stars, but I couldn't see what that did, other than a sound and a flash.

Right after she used her super, her stars disappeared. The exact same thing happened at 1:21, she shot stars into the sky. So maybe those stars build up and let you use stronger moves? Kinda like a pseudo card system from hisou.

Also, in the opening, I also spy Shou, Miko, Seiga, Futo and Unzan -> (Ichiring)! So maybe they are playable!? :]

[UTW]

Also, in the opening, I also spy Shou, Miko, Seiga, Futo and Unzan -> (Ichiring)! So maybe they are playable!? :]

And Byakuren. Look by Shou.

[cuc]

Character titles:
Hakurei Reimu - Speaker for the Eight Million Gods
Kirisame Marisa - The Magician Representing Humanity

"Eight Million Gods" is the collective name for all the kami. "Eight million" here means "uncountable", not a real number.

[Tiamat]

Interesting that the "faction" Marisa is representing is just the humans. Makes sense though, since I don't see why she'd want to represent any of the religions.  I guess she's going to try to prove that humanity can stand on its own. Maybe ZUN'll even address all those hints of her potentially becoming a youkai in UFO too.

[Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin]

and Alice is playable as "The Magician Who Isn't Representing Humanity"

[AnonymousPondScum]

Or Marisa's seeking life-extension techniques from Kasen.

[Aba Matindesu!]

Dat Colorful Path remix.

This x infinity.

[Kilgamayan]

KOed Marisa just floating in mid-air made me laugh.

[cuc]

An important detail in the intro. The blue beast underneath Shou has horns, and 3 eyes on its back. It's very likely a hakutaku. (See English Wikipedia for description, Japanese Wikipedia for images)

Keine almost confirmed.

Oh, there are also oni and kappa in the intro, but we can safely presume them to be generic stand-ins for evil forces. Hakutaku though, is an oddly specific creature of good fortune. It doesn't belong here... unless it means something.

EDIT:
The humans are dancing the "eejanaika" dance, and talismans are raining from the sky, which you should have already known, if you've spent any time looking up the game's backstory.

The scene of humans being massacred by oni is probably inspired by the traditional art genre of jigoku-hen - depictions of hell.

The muscular gray spirit near Futo, I have no idea. My guess is, it's a generic Taoist steward spirit, summoned by hermits to perform various minor tasks that require mythical strength, such as tying up a defeated youkai, or carrying a relic that weighs 100 ton, typically a 黄巾力士 "yellow-turbaned musclemen" in classical Chinese novels.

...With that said, its pose look familiar. It's some Buddhist thing I've seen.


Ideas others have contributed:

The "evil dragon" Shou is fighting is "Itsumade" a.k.a. "Till When", a.k.a. the strange bird that Hiroari shot (see the image here for comparison). The story of Hiroari is modeled after the shooting of Nue, and the bow in both stories are the same one, but strictly-speaking, Itsumade is not Nue.

The river at the beginning is Sanzu River. It's written on the milestone beside it, and there's a soul floating above it. The mountain is Youkai Mountain, notice how the "clouds" have faces, beaks and a fan - they are tengu.

The lone monk with a hat might be Yuyuko's father. The nun walking with a stick might be a reference to Byakuren's past life. The child underneath Shou might be Akyuu.

You can see what might be a dragon's tail near Reimu. "Like a dragon, you can only see either its head or its tail."

[Mr. Sacchi]

"Eight Million Gods" is the collective name for all the kami. "Eight million" here means "uncountable", not a real number.

Which also reminds me of Ran's "Eighty Million Holy Boards" spellcard. Interesting tidbit.

Though the IaMP declaration system really puts me off, I'll play this solely because of Miko. Wonder how she'll play.

Spoiler:

If she doesn't use the Shichi-Sei Ken I'll be extremely disappointed.

Aside from the fact that Miko will be in it though, for me, this is a pretty generic fighter, so what I'm mostly looking forward to is the story and especially the music (I really wonder if they'll make a Small Desire's Starry Sky remix for this (Though seeing as Desire Drive is more popular, it's probably getting it's own remix instead) and of course, True Administrator, Cosmic Mind is another one I'm looking forward to.)

[Amraphenson]

Aside from the fact that Miko will be in it though, for me, this is a pretty generic fighter,

Dunno man. Just thinking of all the stuff we have to keep in mind with this being a floaty, three plane fighter sorta puts my head in a tizzy. Corner combos, wall slam combos, ceiling combos, spacing, neutral, zoning, all of that.

Just from looking at Marisa's moveset from that trailer, she can probably 6-way mixup after a knockdown. Knockdown into that star rain move, then she could seriously just use that divekick/broom thing for an ambiguous crossup. Depending on how the above/below/same plane works with blocking, that could be even scarier. Stuff like that seems like it will make the game pretty interesting; I'm pretty hyped for it now myself, and you can see for yourself how cynical I was about it beforehand. I don't really think it looks generic at all.

Reminds me that I'm interested in how they're going to handle blocking.

[cuc]

Oh right, I feel so stupid for not realizing earlier.

That gray spirit is "Agyō", the personification of the open-mouthed part of the mystical syllable "aum". Along with "Ungyō", the personification of the closed-mouthed part, they are the two angry Vajradhara (Kongōrikishi in Japanese) gate guardians of Buddhist temples. The Japanese are used to call them Niō, "the Humane Kings", or "the Two Kings".

It is possible that they are just using the pose of Agyō for a generic Taoist muscleman spirit, though.

See:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%87%91%E5%89%9B%E5%8A%9B%E5%A3%AB
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-un

By the way, the reason the lone monk is speculated to be Saigyouji is because he's standing near a dead tree and Japanese tombs.

[N-Forza]

"Eight Million Gods" is the collective name for all the kami. "Eight million" here means "uncountable", not a real number.

So stop translating it as "eight million" if it doesn't actually mean "eight million"

[cuc]

Hey, to pick a precedent worse than "eight million", King James' Bible translated "three and four times" literally, which means "many times" in Hebrew, even when it only sounds like "a few times" to English ears.

Of course that's not a fair comparison, since KJV Bible prioritized textual accurancy above anything else. But "eight million" is also much less confusing.

By your logic, many things called "eight" or "nine" in Chinese / Japanese should also be translated as "many" or "all", because that's the meaning of "eight" or "nine" here. As a casual fan of linguistics, I find such language flavors worth preserving, especially and more importantly, when it can be easily understood by English speakers.

I also chose to not translate it as literally as "Speaker for the Eight Million", since not clarifying it as "gods", now that would actually confuse people.

But OK, "Speaker for the Milliard Gods" then it is.

Observations I received:
If the long-haired woman really is Kaguya, then the man near her should be Iwakasa, the man Mokou killed.

Since that gray figure is Nio, the tree beside him might be a peach tree. They together signify heaven.

[Starxsword]

I'll say the chances of Byakuren, Miko, and Sanae appearing are pretty high. The picture also gives reason to believe that Shou and Futo to be playable.

[Kosachi]

Since that gray figure is Nio, the tree beside him might be a peach tree. They together signify heaven.

So there is the possibility that Tenshi will making another appearance.

[FinnKaenbyou]

So I've been giving the trailer some inspection and I've found some things.

I'm still not ENTIRELY sure how the percentages work but from what I can tell they affect a character's defense rate. Check out the combo Marisa gets hit with at 1:03 and 1:51. The first time it does 2300 with one of the amulets missing completely, but the second time it only does 1900. The first combo hits when Marisa's approval is at 5%, and the second hits with a 19% approval. (In comparison Reimu's approval has actually INCREASED so it's probably not responsible for the drop in damage.)

Spellcards being comboable after stun for decent damage seems scary, especially since we already have day -10 stun combos. :V

Danmaku attacks use up the magic gauge on the bottom, going from blue to red. A red gauge doesn't mean you can't use danmaku - at 1:26 Marisa throws stars even with a full red bar. However, when you block the red portion of your meter is drained away. (It refills over time when unusued, I assume.)

So, the big question is approval. How to you get it? From what I've seen the system looks like this:
POSITIVE APPROVAL:
-Landing the first strike
-Landing combos
-Counter hits (large boost)
-Aggressive play? Not sure about this, but Marisa gains approval at 1:27 when she dashes in
-Declaring (5% guaranteed)

NEGATIVE APPROVAL:
-Getting hit first
-Eating a counter
-Passive play? (See Reimu at 1:21)
-Opponent's declaration

Voters seem to be hard-headed, too. When they make a vote it's permanent, which means if you already have some negative votes it's hard to work back (See how much easier Marisa gains meter compared to Reimu after one first-strike and a counter).

That's all I've got for now, though there's one obvious thing to bring up...

Spoiler:

of all the people who usually frequent Reimu's shrine, where's Suika?

[nintendonut888]

That's all I've got for now, though there's one obvious thing to bring up...of all the people who usually frequent Reimu's shrine, where's Suika?

Probably still in heaven. She really only hung around Reimu's shrine during IaMP.

[Amraphenson]

Confirming Rou's findings.
edit: Not sure if that was a stun combo or a knockdown, and Marisa just took the Dream Seal to the face when she got back up. It seems like you can't hurt people during dizzy.

[Mr. Sacchi]

You guys sure it was when she got back up? The combo counter didn't go back to zero when Reimu used Fantasy Seal.

[Amraphenson]

Missed that. And...yeah that's scary.

[Kosachi]

Not sure if that was a stun combo or a knockdown, and Marisa just took the Dream Seal to the face when she got back up. It seems like you can't hurt people during dizzy.

I'm not quite sure she got back up. I have a hunch that you're not safe from specials when you're down/stunned. Another possibility could be that if a special would be fatal, it will still hit stunned or not. Kinda like a pseudo fatality.