Author Topic: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]  (Read 113775 times)

ActionDan

  • Teaching old dogs new tricks
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1230 on: July 24, 2011, 11:26:16 PM »
An interesting idea that. However that would really be annoying for me, I would have been forced to revive town mislynches... after they claimed everything and died anyway.  My role would be really useless...

Reading the QTs, I guess everyone is assuming I could use my summon as a meat shield, but that is not the case (I think).  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I could have been voted for regardless if I summoned that day.

Edit: Then Again I might as well have revived Shadoweh for the lolz.
P.SEdit: Not really, I wouldn't have outed my role so easily.
PPS-Edit: Actually I would have no good reason to revive town mislynches anyway.  Ya, I'd be useless.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 11:28:39 PM by ActionDan »

Don't lynch me.

Kiro

  • Drinks: Everything
  • Sleeps: Anywhere
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1231 on: July 24, 2011, 11:36:48 PM »
Reading the QTs, I guess everyone is assuming I could use my summon as a meat shield, but that is not the case (I think).  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I could have been voted for regardless if I summoned that day.

No, you couldn't be voted. The flavor as explained to me by Bard is that you are channeling your spirit through the dead player. In essence, it was a player swap for the Day and was properly reflected in the votecounts. Otherwise, the game would have "increased" by a player and affected the number of people required to lynch unfairly.

It was thought the less you played and relied more on your revived Townie, the more suspicious you individually might be. However, that did not come true at all as your revived players hurt the Scum in a variety of ways and you did it every Day which just screams to players that you're probably Town. It could have been a huge WIFOM going into LYLO, but Caladbolg happened to break the orb that stated you were a Town aligned Treestump as well. Even if you were a single shot reviver, you were definitely one of the strongest Town roles.

ActionDan

  • Teaching old dogs new tricks
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1232 on: July 24, 2011, 11:46:00 PM »
In that case, I was just clearly not paying attention. 

I still am not sure why scum didn't attempt to kill me night 2 and beyond, and I was wondering where that Xix case on me came from.

Don't lynch me.

Kilgamayan

  • True
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  • The Real Treasure Is You
    • Let's Play Super Marisa World
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1233 on: July 25, 2011, 12:26:40 AM »
Part of it was because you claimed your role properly - as far as we knew, you were well and truly out of charges. Part of it was because the results of your Mala resurrection was sheer dumb luck and you were still a potential mislynch candidate before the second of three investigative roles popped up with your orb. After that happened you still weren't touchable because it was too much of a risk that Miya would watch you and get really suspicious when she saw you die without being targeted.

Which, incidentally, eliminates most of the advantage of the only actually useful NK powerup in this game. Whoever said scum weren't put into a trap with their roles (Kiro?), keep in mind that one scum was given a power that worked as a fake claim except for the fact that another townie also had that power, and two of the three scum had NK powerups that strongly suggested roles that didn't exist. Expecting scum to realize all of these things in time to do anything about it is a little absurd.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 12:30:46 AM by Kilgamayan »
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
[22:40:21] <Drake> REPORTED
[22:40:25] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> PROBATED
[22:40:30] <Drake> ORGASM
[22:40:32] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> FUCK YEAH

[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Serp

  • It's all about overwhelming force and irresistible style
  • And in a pinch, style can slide
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1234 on: July 25, 2011, 01:32:10 AM »
Even in a game with no roles, the result of the game will still be based on lucky role PMs - namely, which players get sent a town role PM, and which players get sent a scum role PM.  No matter how skilled you are, you still have to play with the team that you've been dealt, and this is a community where some players are overwhelmingly more likely to get lynched than others. 

The purpose of roles is to add enough unknown factors that all players have to shake up their play a bit, reacting to unexpected things over the course of the game.  They also give individual players (especially townies) a chance to have a disproportionate effect on the outcome of the game, depending on whether they use their roles wisely - even if only one of the top four skilled players in the game is on the town's side, he should still have his chance to tip the scales in his faction's favor, rather than just getting sidelined N1.  Picking who to cop or who to roleblock isn't "random."  It's based on the tells that scum and town power roles give, and it's as much a part of the game as the voting is.

In turn, the point of role madness is to give more players that chance of singlehandedly putting their team in a good position.  This by definition means that the game will be swingy, but I don't think this is a bad thing.  All that's important is that active roles require skill to use in proportion to the effect they have on the game, and for sufficiently powerful roles, the other team should have a countermeasure to either potentially counter the role completely, or to make it unreliable.  Within those limits, all that's really important is that each side has a roughly equal chance of winning.

Though, in role madness games in particular, I think it's especially important for scum to have guaranteed fakeclaims, if not even more extra information about the setup.  A role madness LyLo massclaim is hard enough for scum without forcing them to outguess the mod, and giving the informed minority extra information can also be a balancing factor.
[15:13] <Sana> >:<

Kiro

  • Drinks: Everything
  • Sleeps: Anywhere
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1235 on: July 25, 2011, 03:14:21 AM »
Kilga: Well, in regards to the setup, no Town night vig and a weak Cop is probably not something anyone expected this game. But for the Scum Team, whether the mods are being bastardy for making the 3 Scum each immune to a standard type of Night Action without really including 2 of them on the Town side is up for debate.

The Scum Team design clearly had an optimal way of play (which was extremely strong) that Bard tried to mask by giving them multiple possibilities. However, choosing any of the other options didn't make them truly gimped except for Depore's non-NK ability. Normally Scum don't have to think about who goes out to kill because there's usually a Vanilla Goon that does it. Here, they had to choose. Barring the fact that Depore's secondary ability had no real use this game, was this tri-immunity setup leading Scum down the wrong path or unfair in your opinion?

Apologies to the Scum Team in regards to the Mala and Yuan thing. That shouldn't have happened.

I think wondering about the better alternatives that could be thought up for some of the existing roles (making a Town Night Vig and a Scum Hitman shot, making only one Jailer/Commuter exist, etc.) is wishful thinking in regards to the past game. When I was asked to co-mod, Bard actually had everything prepped up from a while ago. I wouldn't say things were set in stone, but on the other hand, all the roles had been defined and because of that, I wasn't inclined to change an entire role, only to offer suggestions to tweak it. Now that we ran it once, there were certain inefficiencies with things and they all seemed to be slanted against Scum rather than Town, but this setup was still kept in Bard's vision and we now have examples of things that can work and things that should be avoided when possible.

Serp: I see your point about the fakeclaims, but it's not quite as simple as having the mod provide the fakeclaims and the Scum can just use them blindly. In this game, Iffrita could have used her flavor cop role as a fakeclaim, but because she was caught looking at the killed Townie-looking Navarus, the flavor cop fakeclaim or anything else the mod could have provided might have been useless. On the other hand, after seeing Depore's situation (Kilga was out of standard claim options and was considering to claim a Cop variant on Day 4 right when Mikhail would have Evocated One which would have kept Hina spinning for the Scum Team forever), that definitely deserves some attention. After seeing this game, I think the mod should prep something in full role madness, but at the same time, Scum should never expect what they're provided is a crutch for all situations.

Shadoweh

  • I will ahn~ vote count for you
  • *
  • The STRONGEST Day Effect
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1236 on: July 25, 2011, 04:54:50 AM »
Edit: Then Again I might as well have revived Shadoweh for the lolz.
:< IT COULD HAVE BEEN A GOOD IDEA BRO! Except that I liked Depore and she was the last scum so I probably would have told you to lynch Miya for being the Scum. >.> Or posted only in lyrical form. Maybe even claimed to auto-win if the day ended so you got lynched. I mean trust me! :D

Hey Schezo how's it feel to actually be townie for once? I felt the same way as Zak, every scum revelation was like a kick in the teeth of shock. If there's anything this game proves it's that Scum can look like Town. Schezo did really well this game suspicions wise from the get-go. You thought you were trying to kill me from the start you jerk. :<


Kitten4u: "I'll say it plainly: THERE IS NO WAY SHADOWEH IS SCUM!" - A Balanced Game of Mafia

Schezo

  • en-counse
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1237 on: July 25, 2011, 05:48:48 AM »
Kill who from the start >.>

You mean how did it feel to be a semi sane townie for once.  I once again have not figured it out but there was something different. :V

Stop making cracks at forever scum, he'll be back next time except with more sanity. (Oh God :ohdear:)

Shadoweh

  • I will ahn~ vote count for you
  • *
  • The STRONGEST Day Effect
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1238 on: July 25, 2011, 07:22:03 AM »
[21:54] <Schezo> I think Empress is Shadoweh :V
>:<
EDIT:
[00:23] <Schezo> Shadoweh using acivity times again was just hrrrrrn
[00:23] <Kitten4u> I would have told you later, but I didn't want any backtracking accusations
[00:23] <Kitten4u> I was wrong about the book actually. Shadoweh was Just. :V
[00:24] <Kitten4u> So you got to kill her
[00:24] <Schezo> oh... well then
[00:24] <Schezo> ahh now it feels good~

I WILL DESTROY YOU >:<
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 11:07:16 AM by Shadoweh »


Kitten4u: "I'll say it plainly: THERE IS NO WAY SHADOWEH IS SCUM!" - A Balanced Game of Mafia

Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1239 on: July 25, 2011, 07:30:46 AM »
I have no idea how anybody could read me as Shadoweh.

capt. h

  • Only sane townie
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1240 on: July 25, 2011, 12:18:43 PM »
I have no idea how anybody could read me as Shadoweh.

Personally, I thought you were K4U.

Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1241 on: July 25, 2011, 04:14:56 PM »
The only person I bothered guessing at all this game was Navarus.

Shadoweh

  • I will ahn~ vote count for you
  • *
  • The STRONGEST Day Effect
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1242 on: July 25, 2011, 04:23:11 PM »
Oh right, setup comments.

Objectively, looking at the three scum powers, Iffrita's flavour cop looks the weakest and makes her seem like the mafia goon of the group, despite how her kill power is the reddest of herrings. A Framer seems powerful when one of your other partners gains immunity to investigations as well, making a cop a likely part of the setup. Come Night 1 I would likely have wanted to use the powers the same way the scum team did.

Just looking at the setup, I'm disapointed that I had no control over my own true win condition. Just's ability to win the game was based on luck and the probability of town stopping nightkills, falling into Iffrita's trap despite the dayvig put in to counter her, and there being no modkills or drop-outs. My role was neat and I'm highly disapointed in myself for not living long enough to see it in action, but as a conceptual guideline people should have to work towards their conditions to win instead of hoping the game plays itself out right.


Kitten4u: "I'll say it plainly: THERE IS NO WAY SHADOWEH IS SCUM!" - A Balanced Game of Mafia

Pesco

  • Trickster Rabbit Tewi
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  • Make a yukkuri and take it easy with me
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1243 on: July 25, 2011, 04:46:34 PM »
That's kinda where skill comes in. Can you play a tight enough game to keep securing the right lynches and not get killed along the way.

Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1244 on: July 25, 2011, 07:11:17 PM »
considering one of the harder parts of the game is for the uninformed majority to figure out what the right lynches are in the first place, asking an uninformed minority to combine right lynches, wrong lynches, and more importantly, no lynches (which are hard enough to pull off in their own right) in equal amounts seems kind of unfair in comparison.

Pesco

  • Trickster Rabbit Tewi
  • *
  • Make a yukkuri and take it easy with me
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1245 on: July 25, 2011, 07:25:40 PM »
Having almost perfect night actions information gives you a lot to work with.

Shadoweh

  • I will ahn~ vote count for you
  • *
  • The STRONGEST Day Effect
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1246 on: July 25, 2011, 08:33:15 PM »
Irrelevant. My tracking could not have told me that I needed to get town to lynch Iffrita. It could not have gotten the scum to nightkill with a roleblocked member or attack a doctor'd target. I'm saying that it was impossible for me to affect the win condition I was suposed to be playing for.


Kitten4u: "I'll say it plainly: THERE IS NO WAY SHADOWEH IS SCUM!" - A Balanced Game of Mafia

Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1247 on: July 25, 2011, 08:43:28 PM »
the best Shadoweh could have hoped to do, even if she survived day one, was pretty much be counterclaimed by Schezo.

Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1248 on: July 25, 2011, 08:47:06 PM »
Or she could have just gone for the secondary win. :shrug: If I had received the role PM, I would have immediately assumed that the primary win condition was a bastard gag and just played like an ordinary survivor, given the number of players in the game and the likelihood of at least one vig.

Shadoweh

  • I will ahn~ vote count for you
  • *
  • The STRONGEST Day Effect
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1249 on: July 25, 2011, 08:52:33 PM »
So did I at first, but Bard assured me it was possible and asked that I play for the primary win condition. My role pm says the same thing. (apparently the original Just wasn't a Survivor at all!) My complaint isn't that it was impossible, the setup makes it -very- likely to have a Day 7, it was just out of my control completely.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 08:55:14 PM by Shadoweh »


Kitten4u: "I'll say it plainly: THERE IS NO WAY SHADOWEH IS SCUM!" - A Balanced Game of Mafia

Pesco

  • Trickster Rabbit Tewi
  • *
  • Make a yukkuri and take it easy with me
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1250 on: July 25, 2011, 09:15:43 PM »
You were never in control :smug:

Dormio Ergo Sum

  • MotK's Official Idlebot
  • *
  • I don't bite... much.
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1251 on: July 25, 2011, 09:20:18 PM »
Shadoweh JUST couldn't handle how awesome her role was.

Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1252 on: July 25, 2011, 10:10:35 PM »
can't you guys stop the puns for even ONE minute?

Dormio Ergo Sum

  • MotK's Official Idlebot
  • *
  • I don't bite... much.
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1253 on: July 25, 2011, 10:17:24 PM »
Quote
[08:18] <Naganohara_dorMio> @choose post more JUST or don't
[08:18] <@Keine-tan> Naganohara_dorMio: I choose...don't! ^_^V
[08:18] <Naganohara_dorMio> fffffffffff-
[08:19] <~Pesco> JUST do it

Besides, we're JUST kidding around.

Conqueror

  • Here I am, dirty and faceless
  • waiting to heed your instruction
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1254 on: July 25, 2011, 10:19:19 PM »
Shadoweh should JUST give in and make this her new avatar.



On tue un homme, on est un assassin. On tue des millions d'hommes, on est un conqu?rant. On les tue tous, on est un dieu.
Every saint has a past and every sinner a future.

capt. h

  • Only sane townie
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1255 on: July 25, 2011, 10:24:52 PM »
Shadoweh should JUST give in and make this her new avatar.




Almost.


Shadoweh

  • I will ahn~ vote count for you
  • *
  • The STRONGEST Day Effect
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1256 on: July 25, 2011, 10:30:41 PM »
SO.
MUCH.
HATE.


Kitten4u: "I'll say it plainly: THERE IS NO WAY SHADOWEH IS SCUM!" - A Balanced Game of Mafia

Dormio Ergo Sum

  • MotK's Official Idlebot
  • *
  • I don't bite... much.
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1257 on: July 25, 2011, 10:32:15 PM »
You JUST need to embrace your new self.

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1258 on: July 25, 2011, 10:34:50 PM »
can't you guys stop the puns for even ONE minute?

YUANna start a fight over this? Cause I got all sorts of MALAdictions to throw at you...


Re: Cavalier of the Abyss Mafia [Game Over, Town Wins]
« Reply #1259 on: July 25, 2011, 11:08:26 PM »
I would bring the popcorn, but I have no idea where orwen you two are going to fight.