Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2

[Serela]

^

I'm regretting putting any MAG level up points into

Spoiler:

Suwako and Ran

.  Useful against randoms, sure, but level up points are finite and can't be changed, so you're hurting their effectiveness against bosses a lot in a way that you can't take back.  Thankfully by the time

Spoiler:

Yukari

joined I'd learned my lesson.

Actually, Ran can do pretty respectable damage against bosses. She's meant for her buff on bosses, yeah, but I usually end up using her to attack anyway. I think I'll replace her with a certain Plus-Disk buffer once I get them.

[MysTeariousYukari]

Ran and

Spoiler:

Yukari

are fine getting MAG in them from levels as that lets them keep up for when you want to use them for trash killing, but if you go into SP with every level then they lose effectiveness for trash killing for what? 3 more uses of a buff or something? Power and lets say 20 uses of either of Rans buffs, or no real power for maybe... 26 uses of the same spells, I would pick Power every time in this situation.

[Serela]

Ran and

Spoiler:

Yukari

are fine getting MAG in them from levels as that lets them keep up for when you want to use them for trash killing, but if you go into SP with every level then they lose effectiveness for trash killing for what? 3 more uses of a buff or something? Power and lets say 20 uses of either of Rans buffs, or no real power for maybe... 26 uses of the same spells, I would pick Power every time in this situation.

Why would you pick SP? If you don't pick the offensive stat, pick a defensive stat. And that makes a BIG difference to a character's defense/mind, trust me. Its just that only a character with lots of support moves can take such a decision, because they'll be nearly incapable of dealing damage anymore.

[nintendonut888]

I've been doing some power grinding on floor 17 (you're right; it is much faster, and unlike floor 18 you can actually get skill points), but

Spoiler:

RINNOSUKE THERE YOU HAPPY I USED THE FREAKING TAG?

doesn't look to be getting any easier. The thing is is that even at 20 levels from now (max level is now 91), I don't see myself winning if he keeps using stuff like Rasetsu Fist and Start of Heavenly Demise for 2 million HP. V_V

[LHCling]

Spoiler:

RINNOSUKE THERE YOU HAPPY I USED THE FREAKING TAG?

Yes, I am very happy. For good reason too  ^^;;;

Rasetsu Fist is

Spoiler:

"piercing"; the only way to defend youreself against it is to raise your HP since debuffing ATK is out of the question

. Start of Heavenly Demise is

Spoiler:

"composite", meaning that it uses both ATK and MAG to attack your DEF and MND

  >:3

Rasetsu Fist also

Spoiler:

stops being used once he form changes; unconfirmed for Final Phase since I went all out then and there

.
Reached the "last" relay point with Reimu Lv108. Let's see what I can and can't do...

[Serela]

I've been doing some power grinding on floor 17 (you're right; it is much faster, and unlike floor 18 you can actually get skill points), but

Spoiler:

RINNOSUKE THERE YOU HAPPY I USED THE FREAKING TAG?

doesn't look to be getting any easier. The thing is is that even at 20 levels from now (max level is now 91), I don't see myself winning if he keeps using stuff like Rasetsu Fist and Start of Heavenly Demise for 2 million HP. V_V

Tanks+Party DEF/MND buff=those things will do nearly or at 0 damage if you reach a party level of about Reimu lv100. Rasetsu Fist ignores defense but it shouldn't be threatening to anyone with good HP (as anyone in the first 2 slots should have, and I even recommend 3 tanks for this boss).

Who's in your party, by the way? And how do you go about trying to fight the boss? Although I suppose he hurts you too badly to try right now.

[Ghaleon]

Composite attacks are guud, Patchy's mnd alone is higher than most tank's def+mnd combined...Or maybe not, it is for me but I just remember she's carrying a necronomicon, which is a mnd item on steroids.

I found that the first phase of the floor 18 boss was the hardest, after he form changes he's pretty easy because he replaces his threatening attacks with crap like "element this wind", and whatnot.

His final phase is also probably tough except at that point all my guys are relatively buffed and you should have a 80% mag master spark waiting for him at that point (use one at the start too, the fight should last so long that marisa can do it again, you can probably squeeze in 3 actually).

[nintendonut888]

My current party:

Reimu
Marisa
Cirno
Yukari
Yuyuko
Patchouli
Kaguya
Ran
Alice
Yugi
Komachi
Suwako

I realize Yuyuko's a poor choice for this fight, and when I get serious I'll probably switch her for Tenshi. My strategy is to buff everyone's defense and go as all out as I can, but I don't think I've ever dealt more than 200k damage before dying.

[Serela]

I see a problem right off; Yukari is the only tank in that party... and she isn't hugely tanky if you went for MAG, and she can't take physical hits good enough to tank them. 18F boss is MUCH harder without tanks because the other characters won't be sitting there taking 0 damage and laughing at the boss. Patch and Yuyuko can tank magic as well with some MND buffs from Yukari, but you have a glaring lack of a first-slot tanking character. Yuugi can take physical hits great, but FAR too weak to magic for tanking. This is a big flaw.

Yeah, Komachi is an HP tank, but this means she can't actually stay out that long because everything will hurt her a lot; she just won't get 0hkoed by anything that isn't incredibly strong.

If you bring in Tenshi, that will help a lot, because Tenshi can take 0 damage from just about everything this boss has with at least 20% of her self-buff left. Or, you could bring in Meiling, who also works wonderful. Remi would work. Those are the first to come to mind.

[nintendonut888]

I replaced Yuyu with Tenshi and even though she died immediately due to a Rasetsu fistin', I somehow made it to his first form change. He...got an even stronger attack that killed everyone in one hit. -_-

[Serela]

I replaced Yuyu with Tenshi and even though she died immediately due to a Rasetsu fistin', I somehow made it to his first form change. He...got an even stronger attack that killed everyone in one hit. -_-

...yeah, thats the problem with Tenshi. Low HP. It takes a bit of luck to get through the first phase, but then Tenshi is safe. Just make sure she has a ribbon or shuttle body or somesuch so her Self-buff doesn't do bad stuff.

On my first playthrough I totally cheesed that boss with Tenshi by having her tank everything while being the only one out and switching nukers and healers in and out. It took over an hour and was both boring and unsatisfying.

Tenshi can sit there and take hits, but she's absolutely useless for almost anything else. Remi deals nice damage while she takes hits, Meiling has a self-heal and Healer is minor HP heal+status cure, Yukari has 3 support moves... Tenshi is just goddefense and thats all, folks. Sword of Rapture=not that useful, even on bosses with massive buffs.

She DOES do goddefense really damn well though.

[MysTeariousYukari]

Tenshi... not getting hit with PAR from her Self-Buff, wat? the PAR is actually good since she will have the DEF/MND + 100% for longer, plus Tenshi is practicually useless unless shes taking 0, and even then she doesn't seem that good :V

Also, off-topic, but I see new smiley looks now which is very

[Deranged]

Tenshi can sit there and take hits, but she's absolutely useless for almost anything else. [...] Tenshi is just goddefense and thats all, folks. Sword of Rapture=not that useful, even on bosses with massive buffs.

Tenshi... not getting hit with PAR from her Self-Buff, wat? the PAR is actually good since she will have the DEF/MND + 100% for longer, plus Tenshi is practicually useless unless shes taking 0, and even then she doesn't seem that good :V

Also, off-topic, but I see new smiley looks now which is very

Tenshi was actually really useful for me throughout the game for 1 obvious reason, and 2 less obvious ones.

1. Godlike defense obviously, zeroing out a lot of attacks.
2. Very low maintenance. Doesn't really need to use up her turns besides the occasional State of Enlightenment if Reimu/Minoriko/

Spoiler:

Yukari

can't keep up with buffs, and usually only needs minor healing if any.
3. Slow. Yes, I consider this a benefit for her role.

It's true that Tenshi can't do much to bosses besides buffing herself. For this reason, in boss fights, she's performs as my "switcher character". She sits in slot 1 with minor to major defense buffs, and her turns are basically spent either using State of Enlightenment if her buffs are really low, or switching characters in to do their thing (be it healing or damaging or buffing or whatever), then switching them out immediately after for someone more durable, before the boss's attack comes in. Since most of the best damagers are really fragile, and later bosses really like using strong AOEs, her combination of low maintenance and lack of speed actually makes her really suitable to switch in characters constantly to act then switching them out right after.

Meiling's also pretty good at this, but she doesn't take hits nearly as well as Tenshi, and letting her defensive buffs fall to low amounts hurts her a lot more than it hurts Tenshi, making her have to use her turns to heal herself or switching in buffers/healers more often than Tenshi has to. Remilia also has maintenance issues, but her bigger issue is actually that she's too fast to make this work in general. Of all the DDers I used, the only ones Remilia could switch in and have them go first was Chen (pointless since she can switch herself out easily),

Spoiler:

Flandre

and Suwako (both with some speed manipulation). For characters like Yuugi, even Meiling outsped them, forcing me to use Tenshi to switch her in always. That's why in the end, I built Remi up to play a more "DD who can stay in the frontlines for prolonged periods" role, similar to Alice and

Spoiler:

Shikieiki

, and Tenshi became my main tank, with Meiling as backup if the boss had Rasetsu Fist or a similarly Tenshi-killing move.

[Just a GBZero]

Why did no one say

Spoiler:

Rinnoske

can change forms before the form itself dies and switch back at will.  Plus he is the only boss I actually am having decent trouble with.

[LHCling]

Pretty much expected, but I'll say it anyway.

I can't clear 20F at late 10Xs. Perhaps 11Xs.

* Baity starts grinding levels

By the way...

Spoiler:

are those uhh... "limbs" able to be killed? Or a better question, does dealing damage to them add to the overall "damage" the Boss takes

?

[Ghaleon]

By the way...

Spoiler:

are those uhh... "limbs" able to be killed? Or a better question, does dealing damage to them add to the overall "damage" the Boss takes

?

Hitting them damages the boss, not what you target, use multi target attacks to damage the boss really bad. When the 3rd one comes out, their healthpools finally seperate, and no longer damage the boss.

Knowing that makes the boss so much easier, wish i knew before I beat it >=P.

I finally got my first 30F item, got it from

Spoiler:

yukari mk3

. It's a great physical dps item with status resists. Could be better if some budget wasn't wasted on 30 tp though >=(.. stupid god items with tp. argh.

[LHCling]

Hmm... so!

It would be thus logical to conclude that once the third one comes out then "they" are possible to kill off?

If the above statement is true, then it would probably make the battle a bit easier (or maybe a lot).

Guess I'll take another shot at 114  :V
...or maybe 116 seeing as I need to actually bulk up a bit more via Skill Points.

[Pesco]

This is exactly what I intend to figure out with my theorycrafting, that and more, such as factoring the formulas of their attacks too.

My last 2 road blocks are the skillpoint costs to gain each level. It wouldn't be fair to assume everyone was the same skill level when some cost more to level those up than others, and....I think I just figured out how I'm going to deal with the speed problem, yay!

I mentioned earlier on that there were stat level ratings in the info for each character. The 15 hex addresses right after their stat levels were the ratings for the respective stats. Fiddle with those and their cost to increase a stat is adjusted accordingly.

[Ghaleon]

Hmm... so!

It would be thus logical to conclude that once the third one comes out then "they" are possible to kill off?

If the above statement is true, then it would probably make the battle a bit easier (or maybe a lot).

Guess I'll take another shot at 114  :V
...or maybe 116 seeing as I need to actually bulk up a bit more via Skill Points.

Yeah they are killable once the 3rd is out, they go down pretty quick at that point too. Be careful which order you kill them in though, because the others gain new powers as you kill them. Killing the one on the right last is a big nono unless you don't mind eating a scourge or 2 (over 100k damage to one target which ignores defense and mnd). I personally like killing the left one last because it doesn't seem to do much aside from "moar damage', and is already pretty tame IMO.. Not to mention it seems to be the squishiest, it's hella weak versus fire btw, so you can probably 3 or 4 shot it with some powerful fire spells like royal flare (it will most likely die first if you royal flare while all 3 are up a couple times).

After all 3 are out it's a bit of a luck fight since the boss can cast an unfair combination of everything +100% (it's actually 50% but she can cast it multiple times in a row if she likes), djinn storm, and powerful nukes. (Hyperdimensional flying object was the nastiest by far for me, though some people think the quadruple destructive whatever its called is worse).
+50%,djinnstorm, +50%, hyperactive is basically a you lose button, unless you got some kind of party specifically designed to tank that one nuke or something.

Knowing that she takes damage when she's summoning stuff really lets you nuke her down really far in advance though, so that elimates alot of the luck factor once you know that.

I mentioned earlier on that there were stat level ratings in the info for each character. The 15 hex addresses right after their stat levels were the ratings for the respective stats. Fiddle with those and their cost to increase a stat is adjusted accordingly.

I think I misunderstood what you meant exactly. I don't see how I can really use that to my advantage...Please tell me they are integers and not floats. If integers it'll be nice to know that the formulas used for those skillpoint costs have a limited number of deviations. What's the lowest and highest number you recall seeing?

[Pesco]

They're integers.

For Reimu, her TP level rating was 5500 and her Mnd rating was 90. You can approximate it to 1 SKP per 100 rating (at level 1) and scale it accordingly.

[Ghaleon]

They're integers.

For Reimu, her TP level rating was 5500 and her Mnd rating was 90. You can approximate it to 1 SKP per 100 rating (at level 1) and scale it accordingly.

Damn, that's a large range. Still though it suggests that they all share the same formula, which is nice.

I got my 2nd 30F item, high king finglesomethingorother's cestus... +168% attack.. period, nothing else.. WUT TF.. I've gotten items with over 300 attack from floor 27 ffs >='(.

speaking of which, what level do you have to be approximately to survive the enemy who drops the said item's "big" attack? it was nailing me for over a million ='(..and most of my dudes have less than 100k hp lol.

Seems like Reimu 400 is a level where you can safely take on just about all the 30F trash. Not all though. One in particular can heal for 10 million....Oh and I do 0 with everything except master spark which fully buffed hits for 400k only, and kaggy, who hits for 300k with her defense ignore attack.. so yeaaaahhh.

[trancehime]

I don't use that character :V I use

Spoiler:

Rinnosuke

as Chen replacement. Every stat on the replacement is higher then it is on Chen, cept for Speed, which is only slightly lower... I think... :V

Except his offense sucks despite the stats, very average multipliers, he is better off as a tank.

[Axel Ryman]

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7ILDFRGL

Here's the cheat file i mentioned and (finally) decided to upload. Includes the engine installer and a notepad file to explain a number of the cheats and stuff.

[Deranged]

Someone on pooshlmer posted an excel spreadsheet detailing pretty much all the information on every enemy in the game, including affinities, resistances and drops/drop rates. I've taken the liberty of translating it into english.

http://www.mediafire.com/?ytjuzizgiyz

Supposedly only for V2.05~2.06, but I doubt enemy data changed that much in the version update.

[nintendonut888]

Results from grinding last night: Top level (everyone says Reimu level, but Cirno and Chen at are a higher level than Reimu :S) raised from level 87 to 93. I can indeed survive

Spoiler:

floor 18 boss olololol

for longer, but I can rarely reach his form shifts, because the RNG is screwing me over and Rasetsu Fisting everyone a lot more than it did before. X(

[Serela]

Results from grinding last night: Top level (everyone says Reimu level, but Cirno and Chen at are a higher level than Reimu :S) raised from level 87 to 93. I can indeed survive

Spoiler:

floor 18 boss olololol

for longer, but I can rarely reach his form shifts, because the RNG is screwing me over and Rasetsu Fisting everyone a lot more than it did before. X(

Nonono-we don't go by Reimu for being the highest level. We do it because basically everyone uses Reimu in their party (GROUP HEAL AND DEF/MND BUFF INSANELY IMPORTANT), and you have her from the very start. I'm pretty sure the recommended levels on the Japanese wiki are based off of Reimu as well.

Yeah, don't expect to be able to beat the boss until at least Reimu lv90. Basing off Chen/Cirno won't get you anywhere because, like, Chen will likely be 10+ levels higher then Reimu when you're ready for the final boss.

And on a different note, I haven't used Cirno much in the later floors, is she useful for you? Since resistance to debuffs/PAR on average increases as you progress in the game, is she still useful, like, for damaging or something? I'm considering using her for a sub-par party playthrough. Because I have nothing else to do after I beat the Plus-Disk Final on this  :V

And no, the trash/bosses after 18F are not completely immune to Cirno's stuff, so you don't need to throw her out if you like her. Even the Final Boss is affected... sometimes

[Ghaleon]

Someone on pooshlmer posted an excel spreadsheet detailing pretty much all the information on every enemy in the game, including affinities, resistances and drops/drop rates. I've taken the liberty of translating it into english.

http://www.mediafire.com/?ytjuzizgiyz

Supposedly only for V2.05~2.06, but I doubt enemy data changed that much in the version update.

I'm not at my computer so I can't see but thanks for this, if that has enemy def/mnd values... You might want to file a restraining order against me because my affection might get innapropriate =p.

[Pesco]

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7ILDFRGL

Here's the cheat file i mentioned and (finally) decided to upload. Includes the engine installer and a notepad file to explain a number of the cheats and stuff.

Yays for the mention :3

[yoshicookiezeus]

Does anyone know approximately how much health

Spoiler:

Mokou

has left once she uses

Spoiler:

Resurrection

? I assume that the way to beat her is to Master Spark/Silent Selene/[insert other powerful attack here] her to death before she destroys everyone on the next turn, but when I just fought her I got surprised and only had time to bring out a 240-SP Marisa, whose 30,000-damage Master Spark just wasn't enough to bring her down. I did fine until that point though, with my only casualty being

Spoiler:

Ran

, but that doesn't help when your entire party is wiped out in one single attack...

[Serela]

Does anyone know approximately how much health

Spoiler:

Mokou

has left once she uses

Spoiler:

Resurrection

? I assume that the way to beat her is to Master Spark/Silent Selene/[insert other powerful attack here] her to death before she destroys everyone on the next turn, but when I just fought her I got surprised and only had time to bring out a 240-SP Marisa, whose 30,000-damage Master Spark just wasn't enough to bring her down. I did fine until that point though, with my only casualty being

Spoiler:

Ran

, but that doesn't help when your entire party is wiped out in one single attack...

About 80k HP. You have to have a fully MAG buffed Marisa with full SP to bring out in order to KO her, and you'll need to have enough MAG/SP to deal over 80k hp with that as well.