Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2

[Ghaleon]

crap, saved over my second game file, anybody know of some kind of backup?

[nintendonut888]

Kaguya has been taken home. Kaguya's foe wasn't so hard once I attached some LOVE on my lolis. Cirno actually has two fire buffs, so she could take the hits really well. Then I just needed Yugi and Reimu to keep tanking the hits and healing before the next hellfire, and... \o/

Now, let's see if Kaguya can prove that Eientei isn't a complete waste of a Touhou family.

[trancehime]

Nope... I am Reimu 444 or so. I also beat

Spoiler:

***WINNER***

on my 1st try! Woohoo!

You are either a dirty dirty liar or you have grinded your skill level WAY too much because I think there's no legitimate way you could possibly beat 30F Middle boss at level 450.

[Serela]

Now, let's see if Kaguya can prove that Eientei isn't a complete waste of a Touhou family.

Her last 3 attacks ignore MND (Think Dark Side of the Moon with nice damage) and her buff is really nice. Unfortunately, she's like patchy with slightly better stats in exchange for worse MAG/MND, so she's really frail. She can take a minor physical hit unlike Patch, at least.

Her damage isn't particularly awesome (although Hourai Barrage is still pretty strong) but the MND ignoring and her ATB-filling buff are pretty nice.

[Kanako Yasaka]

I got her at like the exact same time as Donut, I love her so I'm going to use her no matter what anyone says. :<

Btw Donut, Eirin's pretty good. ;S

[nintendonut888]

Eirin never really stood out except for Hourai Elixir. :x

Then again I like barely raised her magic at all so whatever.

[MysTeariousYukari]

You are either a dirty dirty liar or you have grinded your skill level WAY too much because I think there's no legitimate way you could possibly beat 30F Middle boss at level 450.

I shall fix this to tell what I did

you have grinded your skill level WAY too much

Can you say upper hundred in skill levels? Cause I sure as heck can! )

[Serela]

Eirin's low level up speed means she isn't great for tanking as she looks (Aka, she can't), her heal is always 50% so it can't heal like Minoriko or even Sanae's can, and her attacking capability is fairly sucky too.

On paper, she looks really nice. In execution, she falls below expectation in every manner.

EDIT:Typo fixes, god why am I doing this at 1:50 AM

[trancehime]

Can you say upper hundred in skill levels? Cause I sure as heck can! )

Uh... When I beat him my first time I was Lv700 and my skill levels were Lv1000+...

[LHCling]

On paper, she looks really nice. In execution, she falls below expectation in every manner.

Eirin works well as "support" in conjunction with Alice for debuffing. Certain debuff weak bosses e.g.

Spoiler:

-foo- Foe

,

Spoiler:

Great Stamp

and

Spoiler:

Yukari

come to mind as excellent examples that can be debuffed and potentially stalled "indefinitely" (read: until out of TP).

Eirin can also take hits pretty well, regardless of levels AFAIK. In short, she can be described as your "Jack of All Trades, Master of None" type of character.
18F, Lv84. Don't like this at all.

[scherzo]

1: The whole "modifier grows each level even if you don't spend points in skillpoints or pump up the stat in question using your level up bonus".. I mean functorial pointed this out to me and I totally would not have known better, but he also said it was 2% according to some site, and fact is, I'm just not getting 2%..I don't want to start making up numbers to compensate.

I'm afraid this is my fault for copypasting the formula from the jwiki incorrectly...
The correct formula as directly transcribed from the wiki is:
Atk/Def/Matk/Mdef = ((Lvl+4)*Growth Rate+constant) * corresponding multiplier
i.e.
Atk/Def/Matk/Mdef = (Lvl*Growth Rate+constant) * (1+(Lvl-1)*.02+(Lvlupbonus)*.02+(Skillptlvl-1)*.04+ItemMult)

Earlier I had put the constant outside, which would cause the value given by the formula to undershoot the actual value. Does this correction fix your problem?

[AlexX Unlimited]

Eirin's low level up speed means she isn't great for tanking as she looks (Aka, she can't)

Lies and slander. With skillpoint distribution into her defenses she can have reasonable durability. Probably not enough for slot 1, but she can last in slot 2 just fine (a place that you can sometimes be strapped for someone to fill... tanky casters like Reimu may not be tanky enough and using another slot 1 tank like Tenshi is a waste of a replacement if the main one runs into trouble). Her defenses and affinities make her perfect for the slot and her healing move is for support more than legitimate healing, since its main draw is the overheal (unless one of your tanks is the deathbitch, in which case you pretty much need her for any kind of reasonable amount of healing on her).

Nitori stuffs

Ones like Youmu start to lose their steam later on because more and more enemies use magic, which tear them apart and make them really hard to use (why do you think I had to drop mine for the 16F battles?). Yeah, she's nowhere near the big nukers like marisa and patchy would be, but she still hits hard and is one of your many potential options for a damage-dealer. Not the most powerful option in the world, but hey, how many of your options for damage-dealers can nuke as well as patchy?

[MysTeariousYukari]

Uh... When I beat him my first time I was Lv700 and my skill levels were Lv1000+...

Wat? Now that seems weird... he only KO'ed 3 chars for me, Marisa who was unlucky and got OHKO'ed by a physical, 18F who I let die(read as: I rarely healed this char) and... Remi who got unlucky, like Marisa. My party for the fight, I'll only name who saw action, was Meiling, Remi, 16F, Marisa,

Spoiler:

Sikieiki

, Reimu and 18F.

[trancehime]

Wat? Now that seems weird... he only KO'ed 3 chars for me, Marisa who was unlucky and got OHKO'ed by a physical, 18F who I let die(read as: I rarely healed this char) and... Remi who got unlucky, like Marisa. My party for the fight, I'll only name who saw action, was Meiling, Remi, 16F, Marisa,

Spoiler:

Sikieiki

, Reimu and 18F.

I am convinced that we're talking about completely different bosses here.

[MysTeariousYukari]

Ok well for the record I am refering to

Spoiler:

***WINNER***

that I beat 1st try at Reimu Lv 444-ish.

[trancehime]

Ok well for the record I am refering to

Spoiler:

***WINNER***

that I beat 1st try at Reimu Lv 444-ish.

Impossible, because he was not that easy when I fought him at L500. :<

[Ghaleon]

I am convinced that we're talking about completely different bosses here.

You sure your skill levels were in the thousands? I'm Reimu 370 right now, and my absolute highest skill levels are only level 230. they cost over 50k skillpoints just to levleup one skill level, per character. The amount of exp it takes reimu to level up is only 1200k. I've been doing nothing but farming floor 27 for like the last 120 levels (more I think actually). My character levels quite simply outpace my skill levels, even though I'm trying to farm liliths as much as possible.

I'm pretty sure high hundreds of skill levels is pretty op for 30F run 1..

BTW mystic, wtf is your skill levels so high, did you cheat to raise them? or did you just grind over and over and for some reason chose NOT to level up regular-style.

Earlier I had put the constant outside, which would cause the value given by the formula to undershoot the actual value. Does this correction fix your problem?

Not sure, I'll check when I feel more productive, I just deleted my 2nd game at floor 10 by accident, and spent the last 2 hours doing something even less desireable.. Imma just have fun for the rest of the night. I'll check tomorrow though. And thanks again for the info, I really do appreciate it.

Well anyway, I was hoping to complete the game with my 2nd playthru using a mostly different cast. However since it got buhleted I'll just spew out random opinions about the characters I experienced with my 2nd playthru.

I'm curious, does anybody like Iku in this game? She seems pretty underwhelming. Her wind spells seem weaker than Aya's, and Aya's not even a pure nuker, she's more useful for her speed buff. Iku's buff might be good, but I don't see why it has to have normal delay AND that nasty paralize. It's not a great buff even, just attack/mag by 50%. I'd way rather have kaggy or Sanae's buff which improve defense and speed as well, WITHOUT a damn paralize effect. She might have more health than kaggy, but I find her mnd and elemental resists do not compare, so she still seemed very fragile. The fact that all her nukes are the same element doesn't really help her trash utility either.

[Kanako Yasaka]

Great Stamp is dead.

Flandre isn't too hard except that Forbidden Fruit is way too strong

[Ghaleon]

Flandre isn't too hard except that Forbidden Fruit is way too strong

I don't know about you, but for me that sounds pretty silly. She casted that damn spell all the time for me, and hence, was hard.

[Pesco]

Wanna put up your save game for me? I'll check the stat levels for consistency.

[Fishin]

Spoiler:

Yukari

has been slain.  Interestingly enough, you take her down to below 200k health from 400k, it causes her to use Djinn Storm twice in a row, and I think Barrier Release right after that. 

(Honors for the big damage to go: Komachi for debuffing, Sanae for buffing, Suwako for Croaking Frog eaten by Snake which did just slightly over 100k each time, and Kaguya for letting Suwako act twice in a row).

Remilia is a definite Jeigan. Her damage doesn't scale as well compared to the other characters later on in the game.

I would say the thing about Remilia is that she's sort of a hybrid damage dealer/tank.  Later on you get characters that can outtank her easily or outdamage her easily, and with 12 slots in a party, you can afford to have some specialization.

[Ghaleon]

Wanna put up your save game for me? I'll check the stat levels for consistency.

Nah thanks, I recorded data on my phone and Imma do it in pretty much nowish.

[Ghaleon]

Spoiler:

Yukari

has been slain.  Interestingly enough, you take her down to below 200k health from 400k, it causes her to use Djinn Storm twice in a row, and I think Barrier Release right after that. 

(Honors for the big damage to go: Komachi for debuffing, Sanae for buffing, Suwako for Croaking Frog eaten by Snake which did just slightly over 100k each time, and Kaguya for letting Suwako act twice in a row).
I would say the thing about Remilia is that she's sort of a hybrid damage dealer/tank.  Later on you get characters that can outtank her easily or outdamage her easily, and with 12 slots in a party, you can afford to have some specialization.

I still find that Remi doesn't get outdamaged easily, she's fast unlike most hard hitters. And she can always maintain a good buff. Other people can't except for chen, whose buff doesn't help in the survival department. I truly think most people think other peopel do damage simply cuz they see bigger numbers, but they don't factor in their speed and delay.. I'm sure other characters can do better damage yes, but easily? eerrr...

[Pesco]

Nah thanks, I recorded data on my phone and Imma do it in pretty much nowish.

I meant MystearicaUtsuho's game that people are suspecting.

[Ghaleon]

I meant MystearicaUtsuho's game that people are suspecting.

FINE thanks for nothing than you pinochio eared swindling bunny-rodent!!!

K, so I leveled up seikieki to 30, spent her level bonus into up, wrote down mnd,def,atk,mag, then leveled her to 100 and did the same thing.
evidently she is a bad example since her mag is greater than her atk, but the wiki indicates otherwise.

Despite this, the formula works accurately for her attack and def(or was it mnd) the other defensive stat was not perfect but it was good enough (like 3 off outta 700ish) I think this is because her constants are floats, but their exact value is unknown, and round error occurs. I also notice that eiki's constants seem unusually small compared to what I thought other characters have. Maybe she is a special case like remi's gimped starting attack stat.

Still I'm satisfied, I'll double check other characters next time I'm on my computer, and if things remain good, I'll be ready to start some number crunching against zero defense theoretical targets, yay...

Btw attack's formula is NOT 1.5(atk - 0.5def).. To be honest I don't know what it is. But I DO know that atk has no multiplier either in or out of the brackets. I figured this by attacking force sparthas and floor 1 fuzzies. Both of which have either 0 or negligable defense. My remi with 110000 atk consistently bit them for 100-122k damage while patchy would hit for within 10% of HER attack.

If remi hit for her attack and had a 1.5 multiplier. That means enemy defense would be high enough to reduce patchy's feeble attacks to 0 but they do not reduce them at all.

[trancehime]

You sure your skill levels were in the thousands? I'm Reimu 370 right now, and my absolute highest skill levels are only level 230. they cost over 50k skillpoints just to levleup one skill level, per character. The amount of exp it takes reimu to level up is only 1200k. I've been doing nothing but farming floor 27 for like the last 120 levels (more I think actually). My character levels quite simply outpace my skill levels, even though I'm trying to farm liliths as much as possible.

I did not level up regularly, I pumped points into skill levels first

[Kanako Yasaka]

I don't know about you, but for me that sounds pretty silly. She casted that damn spell all the time for me, and hence, was hard.

All of the other attacks that she casts do negligible damage or just hit one person :\

[Jaimers]

Okay, everything has been going pretty smoothly as of now. Beat floor 5 and 6 no sweat. Yuugi is easy once you know her gimmick.
Floor 7 is annoying though, I don't think I've backtracked so much in my life! X_X
Although it did give me a lot of exp, which is pretty nice. The 20 teleporters on the left of the map are a complete dick move.

So I get to the boss. Are you kidding me? His opener is a OHPKO! Not even Meiling can survive it! :<
Also, what's the deal with Nitori? I fought her and won in a random encounter (wtf), talked to her and now I have to find her again as a random encounter on this floor?

[Serela]

So I get to the boss. Are you kidding me? His opener is a OHPKO! Not even Meiling can survive it! :<
Also, what's the deal with Nitori? I fought her and won in a random encounter (wtf), talked to her and now I have to find her again as a random encounter on this floor?

No, you find her as a random encounter on the next floor :3

Also, if its a 0hko even on Meiling, something is wrong. You can try boosting her DEF/HP/FIR resistance on Meiling and Remi more so they can survive it, or maybe give them equipment with FIR affinity bonuses. You've been using level up bonuses on DEF for Meiling, right? Or at least HP? D:

[Jaimers]

Yeah, I gave her DEF everytime seeing as that seemed the most logical choice for Meiling.
Raised her DEF to level 20 and now she can barely survive the attack! \o/
To be honest, I have barely been using the magic library.  :V
I'm a bit paranoid about losing skill points it seems.
Although I found out that he can use that attack again and if he does it when Meiling's not at full health I'm screwed. That thing is completely ridiculous.