Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2

[Fishin]

16F's boss continues to be a pain, though I should probably be a bit higher level.  I can consistently get through her first two forms but when the third one boosts with

Spoiler:

IN Quadruple Barrier

and goes berserk after you're still hurting from the Djinn Storm my party always ends up dying, especially since

Spoiler:

Tenshi

can't tank without SP.


Is anyone sure if

Spoiler:

Suika's Throwing Atlas

attack is affected by MND instead of DEF like the English wiki states?  Neither the JP wiki nor the in-game description say anything about it targetting mind and it seems kind of strange.

[Serela]

Is anyone sure if

Spoiler:

Suika's

Throwing Atlas attack is affected by MND instead of DEF like the English wiki states?  Neither the JP wiki nor the in-game description say anything about it targetting mind and it seems kind of strange.

That is probably a typo. All of 14F kitty's physical attacks said they targetted MND as well, on the english wiki, but I had noticed that and fixed it.

ALSO, just fixed typo with 9F optional. Her Optic Camo boosts DEF/MND/SPD by 50% each, not 33% and 15% SPD. In the 2.05+ patches, she should actually be a pretty nice character with that buff and the massively stronger Megawatt.

[MysTeariousYukari]

Ok, I'm trying out

Spoiler:

Sikieiki

and holy wow! My Remi can dish out 600k with Spear on 1F foes while

Spoiler:

Sikieiki

gets 900k with her Single target! Both of those damage counts are Unbuffed for me Undebuffed on the enemies while using 1F foes for the best idea of what each can do. By that I mean, more accurate damage results using 1Fs trash compared to say.... Final Boss :V

[Ghaleon]

Ok, I'm trying out

Spoiler:

Sikieiki

and holy wow! My Remi can dish out 600k with Spear on 1F foes while

Spoiler:

Sikieiki

gets 900k with her Single target! Both of those damage counts are Unbuffed for me Undebuffed on the enemies while using 1F foes for the best idea of what each can do. By that I mean, more accurate damage results using 1Fs trash compared to say.... Final Boss :V

That's the least accurate damage results you can do actually.. The thing is

Spoiler:

Sikieiki's

attack ignores defense, so by using it on targets with virtually no defense, you're gimping her of her special ability.

Of course, not buffing your characters is also cheating remi, because curse is a very easy to use, very accessible, very powerful buff. Comparing her unbuffed to someone else incapable of buffing themselves is also not fair.

Spoiler:

Sikieiki's

attacks have monster delay however, and her speed is nothing special. Remi on the other hand is quite fast, and her attacks have ordinary delay.

Most bosses I find tend to have fairly minimal defense, no more than most trash their own level really. So accurate results would probably be average-defense trash your level.

[MysTeariousYukari]

Ghaloen, I was just doing a quick test of what each could do with nothing extra effecting dmg past the minimal DEF stats of 1F foes. In the moring/within the next few minute, I will do a similar test on the highest floor I can access, and I will also toss buffs into the mix after that.

These quick tests are just to see for myself how much

Spoiler:

Sikieiki

out-damages Remi and are not really worth anything in the end past self-satisfaction. Also, slight... oddity, I guess would be the word, I noticed while testing,

Spoiler:

Sikieiki's Trial of Ten Kings

dealt, I think it was 90k dmg to 1 foe and like 75k to the other. Is this difference really just from random variable? The move in question seems to be Non-Elemental and both targets were on 1F so defensive stats couldn't be the cause.

[trancehime]

Ok, I'm trying out

Spoiler:

Sikieiki

and holy wow! My Remi can dish out 600k with Spear on 1F foes while

Spoiler:

Sikieiki

gets 900k with her Single target! Both of those damage counts are Unbuffed for me Undebuffed on the enemies while using 1F foes for the best idea of what each can do. By that I mean, more accurate damage results using 1Fs trash compared to say.... Final Boss :V

Remilia is a definite Jeigan. Her damage doesn't scale as well compared to the other characters later on in the game.

Re:

Spoiler:

Siki's Last Judgment

Ghaloen, I was just doing a quick test of what each could do with nothing extra effecting dmg past the minimal DEF stats of 1F foes. In the moring/within the next few minute, I will do a similar test on the highest floor I can access, and I will also toss buffs into the mix after that.

The point is, Last Judgment ignores MND and will almost always do the same damage to any foe, 1F or not. Using, say, Trial of Ten Kings is a lot fairer as it actually DOES hit MND. Prowling Punishment is also a good skill to test with, as it is not only more practical to use than Ten Kings but is actually a superior version of Komachi's Narrow Confines of Avici.

Re:

Spoiler:

Siki's delay

Spoiler:

Sikieiki's

attacks have monster delay however, and her speed is nothing special. Remi on the other hand is quite fast, and her attacks have ordinary delay.

It's really just Last Judgment and Prowling Punishment with a debilitating 8500. However, Ten Kings has a tolerable 6000! Only issue is that huge-ass SP cost on

Spoiler:

Siki

resources... Yeah... However, you must take into consideration that

Spoiler:

Siki

will no doubt definitely be outdamaging Remi. Even with buffs, Remi can do comparable damage, but

Spoiler:

Siki

's attack formula is just overall superior, and has the benefit of Last Judgment. She's definitely a lot better than Remi objectively, comparing the two from a post-game standpoint. It's better to say Remi is a superior tank, though.

[Ghaleon]

I totally want to theorycraft this purely from a math POV, factoring in character speed, damage formulas, attack/mag growth rates, and leveling curves.. But there are 2 things holding me back.

1: The whole "modifier grows each level even if you don't spend points in skillpoints or pump up the stat in question using your level up bonus".. I mean functorial pointed this out to me and I totally would not have known better, but he also said it was 2% according to some site, and fact is, I'm just not getting 2%..I don't want to start making up numbers to compensate.

2: Skillpoint costs are a factor which seem to have arbitrary values. This can be worked around purely from slow painstaking gameplay analysis, however I don't really want to bother until I am sure about everything else first.

Trying to figure out what to use for "standard enemy def/mnd" values will also be tough. I think I'll just make up values based on numbers that I get from from non-level grinded playthrus. Try and collect data from every type of defense-level enemy (feeble defense ones, who I suspect have none, such as orb's physical defense, weak defense (sorceress enemies), medium (knights), high (djinn, supreme one. or whatever they are called, etc), and wall-class (beldmyr, those stupid crabs on 27F, yellow kings, etc).

Also, does anybody know the % chance of Thundercloud Stickleback to cause par is? it's not 300% >=P

[Deranged]

Also, does anybody know the % chance of Thundercloud Stickleback to cause par is? it's not 300% >=P

I'm pretty sure anything that causes PAR has the same success rate, which would be entirely based on the target's PAR resistance.

[Serela]

I'm pretty sure anything that causes PAR has the same success rate, which would be entirely based on the target's PAR resistance.

And same with PSN and SIL, too. DTH is the only one where hit chance is affected by the power of the DTH effect.

Also, skill point costs increase by a certain percent each skill level or something, it says so on the Jap wiki. But yes, the starting value doesn't correspond to anything, its just whatever number they felt like sticking in. Generally though, a character's better stats cost less to raise.

[Jaimers]

Beat Alice and with her Floor 4! /o/

Alice was really... easy. Which surprised me as I've heard she's like impossible.  :V
I guess the poison and Patchy being able to use Royal Flare four times before running out of SP really helped.
Silence is a pretty bullshitty status affect though. Luckely, Meiling can cure it and I gave her some necklace which prevents herself from getting silenced.

Just a question: How effective is poison? I've seen that it is devastating on my own team. Does it work the same way on the enemies?

[trancehime]

Just a question: How effective is poison? I've seen that it is devastating on my own team. Does it work the same way on the enemies?

Poison mechanics is universal to every move.

However, PC Poison varies wildly in terms of damage, as it runs off an individual Poison stat on the attack with Poison attached.

[Serela]

Wriggle's massive PSN-120 on her Comet on Earth should be dealing pretty good damage though, especially if you switch her in to renew it every now and then. PSN slowly wears off, dealing less damage until it disappears.

It makes Wriggle pretty nifty because you can just do one attack with her and then switch her out, and it keeps dealing more damage for quite awhile. Butterfly Storm also does okay damage, and her defensive stats/status resistances are pretty good.

[Pesco]

I'll hack around with stat level up ratings. I'm sure it's not any arbitrary numbers.

[Serela]

I'll hack around with stat level up ratings. I'm sure it's not any arbitrary numbers.

Cirno and Wriggle's stats all cost the exact same amount to level up (everything that isn't TP or affinity), and I mean, Cirno has good SPD craptastic DEF/MND and lowish ATK/MAG, why would they all cost the same? :/

Other examples too, that I'm just too lazy to go get  :V

[AlexX Unlimited]

ALSO, just fixed typo with 9F optional. Her Optic Camo boosts DEF/MND/SPD by 50% each, not 33% and 15% SPD. In the 2.05+ patches, she should actually be a pretty nice character with that buff and the massively stronger Megawatt.

She's a good character now, most just don't know how to use her apparently. >.>

[Serela]

She's a good character now, most just don't know how to use her apparently. >.>

Two of her attacks are nice for floor clearing (and okay against bosses weak against their element), but her nuke really isn't that great compared to basically anyone actually meant for nuking. And she's frail, buff or not, so without good nuking damage she really isn't worth it compared to Youmu or Yuugi, physical nukers with great HP/Def and better damage.

Even worse when comparing her to other frail nukers like Patch and Suwako, who do significantly better damage with their nukes.

[Kanako Yasaka]

Dammnnnn Kaguya's Foe is hard.

At least I got Orin on my second try. >_>;

[Rikter]

Is it just me or does Floor 4 have less dangerous random encounters than Floor 3.

[MysTeariousYukari]

Spoiler:

I can fight both Dual Hibachi Ver.2  AND Serpent... Can someone give me stats on them? That or a link to a place that has stats on them at very least?

Final Plus Disk floor trash is truely a bunch of trash. They fall like leaves in some cases and other are minor problems.

[nintendonut888]

Good news: I have enough BP to take Kaguya home.

Bad news: KAGUYA'S FOE WUT. I hate this boss type. X(

[Pesco]

It's a F.O.E. :V

[Serela]

Good news: I have enough BP to take Kaguya home.

Bad news: KAGUYA'S FOE WUT. I hate this boss type. X(

Have at least 2 big tanks and 2 healers. I highly recommend Meiling is a tank for this because her self-heal greatly helps. The 2 healers will prob. be Reimu and Sanae (since you don't use Minoriko).

Give each of the tanks a LOVE Machine thing (FIR+122 or somesuch) and they should be able to survive Flowing Hellfire. The most important thing is for them to be able to survive the next one, so quickly switch in a healer or two after you get Hellfire'd, and preferable a nuker. After 2 or 3 turns, you usually want to have everyone who isn't a tank get switched out.

[trancehime]

Spoiler:

I can fight both Dual Hibachi Ver.2  AND Serpent... Can someone give me stats on them? That or a link to a place that has stats on them at very least?

Final Plus Disk floor trash is truely a bunch of trash. They fall like leaves in some cases and other are minor problems.

Ask and you shall receive, I made this a few weeks ago

Also, 30F trash is only trash if you're level 800+

Are you level 800+?

[Ghaleon]

Also, skill point costs increase by a certain percent each skill level or something, it says so on the Jap wiki. But yes, the starting value doesn't correspond to anything, its just whatever number they felt like sticking in. Generally though, a character's better stats cost less to raise.

It says that on the japanese wiki? Does it elaborate more?  I tried hunting for such info but it really was impossible for me to comprehend.

I don't think it's so simple though. While the starting value does seem relatively arbitrary, the growth rates are not fixed either. As I mentioned before, I remember siekieki-however you spell it had the exact same attack (or was it mag? one of them anyway) as keine or Yuka (or both), and had the same cost to increase that stat as well, for like 3 skill levels, then it started costing more. I think it's probably a fixed % that is also arbitrarily chosen for each character, in this case the difference in percent was small enough so that they appeared the same due to rounding.. Or so I hope.

[Serela]

It says that on the japanese wiki? Does it elaborate more?  I tried hunting for such info but it really was impossible for me to comprehend.

I don't think it's so simple though. While the starting value does seem relatively arbitrary, the growth rates are not fixed either. As I mentioned before, I remember siekieki-however you spell it had the exact same attack (or was it mag? one of them anyway) as keine or Yuka (or both), and had the same cost to increase that stat as well, for like 3 skill levels, then it started costing more. I think it's probably a fixed % that is also arbitrarily chosen for each character, in this case the difference in percent was small enough so that they appeared the same due to rounding.. Or so I hope.

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http://www19.atwiki.jp/th_maze/pages/36.html&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhgm7VmgFhkTzVYFWXyHiH-G6YgN7g

I'd explain it myself, but... errr, its probably best to just read the page. Its strange to try to interpret this stuff.

It does mention, however, that a low level of the skill is not enough to be used as a base.

EDIT:Wrong page. Wait a second >:
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http://www19.atwiki.jp/th_maze/pages/36.html&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhgm7VmgFhkTzVYFWXyHiH-G6YgN7g
THERE WE GO

[Furienify]

Just picked it up.

Getting my butt kicked fighting China on the first floor.

Evidently I'm supposed to be switching out allies in fights so that they passively restore SP, but they're doing it at a painfully slow pace so I eventually grind to a halt in any big fight.

[AlexX Unlimited]

Evidently I'm supposed to be switching out allies in fights so that they passively restore SP, but they're doing it at a painfully slow pace so I eventually grind to a halt in any big fight.

Yeah, early on you simply don't have enough people with you in order to rely on that as strongly as you can later on.

[MysTeariousYukari]

Are you level 800+?

Nope... I am Reimu 444 or so. I also beat

Spoiler:

***WINNER***

on my 1st try! Woohoo!

[Ghaleon]

Nope... I am Reimu 444 or so. I also beat

Spoiler:

***WINNER***

on my 1st try! Woohoo!

Really? I read level 1000 is the reccommended level, which I was starting to believe since the first of the f30 bosses can 1shot me at reimu 370 with some of his moves (not even his most powerful one, not even on his last phase). Hell, some of the trash on Floor 30 can OHKO my tank before anybody can even move!

[MysTeariousYukari]

Which boss do you mean for floor 30?

Spoiler:

Serpent of Chaos or Dual Hibachi Ver.2

Hell, some of the trash on Floor 30 can OHKO my tank before anybody can even move!

Meanwhile, of the all 30F trash I have fought, I lost I think 2 chars total between 2-3 fights, at level Reimu 370-ish