Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2

[nintendonut888]

Master Spark hits for around 43k and Silent Selene hits for about 25K.

Also, when I finally beat the Eientei team, I didn't lose a single person.

[LHCling]

Master Spark hits for around 43k-

godotcoffeespit.gif

Alright! I've heard enough of that to work out what's going on. As stated / confirmed by people, you need to deal about 80k to

Spoiler:

Mokou between Resurrection and Volcano spam

to take her out. Not necessarily in one blow; a series can work just as well (obv). So! Let's do some basic addition and... find that you didn't deal enough to win. Makes me wonder what equipment you're running to deal only 43k with a Spark at +80% MAG. Or Skill Point allocation, but I won't go there.

And since I don't use Patchy (NO WAI), I can't get a feel as to whether 25k is good or not.

That being said; you can either choose to:

• Increase MAG on either one of your two "cannons", whether by grinding or equipment change (if that is even possible)
• Attempt to launch a 3rd attack that can deal a sizeable amount of damage (say... 10k-ish, but more is obviously better)
• Or... take another approach that I haven't thought of yet  :V

[Tsumachi]

So uh...what the hell are King Arthurs? I found one on 22f and 29f, and it's not in the item list...as far as I can tell.

[trancehime]

So uh...what the hell are King Arthurs? I found one on 22f and 29f, and it's not in the item list...as far as I can tell.

King Arthur - HP/SP +128%, All Elemental Resistances +128 (Pg14)

Spoiler:

Item drop of Suwako Moriya Ver3, 30F

[nintendonut888]

It's true, I haven't allocated as many magic levels onto Marisa as I should have, but I HAVE attached a bunch of magic enhancing items onto her. :\

As for the cat, she crashed the game again. :[ Even if her attacks are pretty weak, her speed makes her attacks impossible to heal up against in time, leaving one person dead, and when Orin kills someone, she WILL crash the game attacking them after they're dead.

For both of these bosses, I'm doing the obvious solution and grinding on floor 15. The floor's enemies are much better paced than the ones on floor 14. It's actually kind fun~

Also I took 26000 skill points and used them to up all of Sanae's affinities by 50. Suddenly she can survive attacks a lot better. :V

[Milkyway64]

Hey donut, you should grind on floor 13 instead. You get as good if not better EXP/time ratio and the blue knights drop a really, really nice piece of equipment for you.

[trancehime]

95/100, Lv9600

I am nearing the end of my challenge, and therefore nearing the end of playing this wonderfully fun game. I will miss this very much, as I doubt I will come back to another run through of this game in an extremely long time. Over the times I've beaten up the FRUE FINAL, I've learned to love almost every single one of the 40 characters. Here are some of the characters that I've learned to appreciate during this massive trial of masochism that I failed to really realize the potential of in the main game:

Kaguya
It's already been picked up by Tai, and I've been beaten over the head with it by a bunch of people, but damn, that MND piercing property of her magic really really kicks ass on that insanely high (albeit twinked) MAG stat. She's easily now my top damage dealer against the FRUE FINAL, who seemed to love spamming Absolute Defense in his final phase, and earlier attempts found me struggling when I was only using one or two characters with ITD and did not really invest many skill points into Kaguya. Indeed, she is massive twink bait and is a very worthwhile investment. Even using her for Buddabowl, it's extremely convenient at a pinch. In other words, I had to really work hard into making Kaguya the magical destroyer that she turned out to be, oh, 'round the 70th time I started to beat the guy up. At Lv9300 and with Lv7000+ in MAG, she's a destructive force to be reckoned with. Not Flandre-tier destructive, of course, but well there, due to the ignoring MND and all.

Spoiler:

Renko
Renko's only here because she has the most wacked skill-set I have ever seen. Debilitate is nothing short of a free "hurrr no buffs for you!" and is far more effective in dispelling the final's own buffs than it is to try using Tenshi's Sword of Rapture, which I'm confidently sure doesn't work often enough for it to be worth using. I took great care to boost Renko's defensive stats and her mediocre speed, with some levels into her decent-ish HP. I ended up ignoring her offensive stats as that's what you're NOT supposed to be using her for. She has an MT IMMA CHARGIN MAH LASER skill that instead gimps your delay and damages you slightly. The timing, is, therefore, required in order to work out the kinks of using the skill. But once you get the trick, it's very useful for quick bursts of damage. Galaxy Stop is also completely imbalanced in almost any situation, costing a measly 60 SP for something so damned good. Right, it does jack shit for damage despite it being ITD because I didn't raise her horrendous offensive stats, but the MT 120 Count PAR and the AGI down is just really useful. In other words, in the previous times I used her to fight the FRUE FINAL, I only used her for Debilitate and not much else, but she's now a dedicated mainstay.

Youmumu
Slow, but that was easily fixed-ish, at the short-term cost of increasing her power up even more (Lv9000-ish in SPD, but Lv6500-ish in ATK). She became an effective random-clearer alongside random-clearing greats as Chen, Orin, Alice, and others. Her ST attacks are relatively strong, though still comparatively same-y when you put her alongside Miss Yuugi and Suicamelon, I really didn't appreciate the power that Youmu had until I dragged her along. Not quite a mainstay in my boss-slaying team as Yuugi is, but still, a worthy character. If you can get over her woeful speed of suck and shit.

Swacko
Dual-type damage. Kinda like Yuugi, except intrinsically worse in stats. I tried to fix them as best I could, going for an even Lv7000 in all stats. Aaaand, well, Swacko's not entirely bad! Snake Eating forever remains a solid ST nuke that deals significant damage against the FRUE FINAL's ever increasing defense. Perhaps it is not as good as, say, Silent Selene or some shit, but it is still reliable.

Fun mathsy stuff!

The FRUE FINAL at 100th time is:
HP 1742500000 (1b 742m 500k)
ATK 1703130
DEF 891020
MAG 2121965
MND 891020
AGI is... well, don't bother. He's almost always faster than you.

[Milkyway64]

Calling him the true final isn't really correct. It's kinda like saying Shinryu is the true final boss of final fantasy 5. :V

Grats on the 100 (well, 95) kills, though. How many gameplay hours do you have?

[Tsumachi]

King Arthur - HP/SP +128%, All Elemental Resistances +128 (Pg14)

Spoiler:

Item drop of Suwako Moriya Ver3, 30F

Aha! It shows up as Arturos Gem in the item list, so I looked right past it.
What the hell?

[trancehime]

Calling him the true final isn't really correct. It's kinda like saying Shinryu is the true final boss of final fantasy 5. :V

Grats on the 100 (well, 95) kills, though. How many gameplay hours do you have?

I call him true final because it is like calling Ur-Child the true final of EO2. I'm using the Etrian Odyssey parallels. Akyu explicitly has the boss resurrected for future fights.

Gameplay hours is well over 300.

[Deranged]

Aha! It shows up as Arturos Gem in the item list, so I looked right past it.
What the hell?

The text you get for receiving items from treasure chests, and the text that's shown in the equipment list is actually stored in different addresses. The file containing all the text from the equipment list was considered the "base", and the equipment names from that list went through several modifications, especially at the end when I was compiling the reference list and searched out the games each item was referencing. I then changed the name in the get messages. The Arturos Gem was apparently the one item I forgot to change in the file containing all the "got" messages.

tl;dr: lolpatchbug

[MysTeariousYukari]

Master Spark hits for around 43k

Wow

I think I see the problem here, your Marisa doesn't have much SP remaining does she? Her SP count affects the power of Spark pretty big, so much that I would sooner reccomend 2 equips giving 30%-50% SP and 1 giving 30%-50% MAG over 2 MAG and 1 SP ect... The percents given for equips were just numbers I picked, if you don't have equips giving those sort of stats, the next best will be fine as well

If my memory is correct, the Master Spark has a damage formula like so: (1 + a) x ((MAG x 8 ) - (T.MND / 2)). a is based off of how much extra SP Marisa is spending on Spark and when the extra SP spent = 1160 or higher, a = 1. With this formula at it's best, a = 1, and Marisa having 7000 MAG, the target having 1000 MND(lol, random-but-simple number pick) and the target having a MYS affinity of 100, you could be seeing about 111000. :V

A more likly Spark scenario at around the point your at Donut would probly have a Marisa with... what, 500-600 SP maybe? With the exact same situation from above, but with 580 SP rather then 1160 being spent extra, you could see about 83250 damage.

Could you post some of your Marisa stats here Donut, particularly SP and MAG?

[trancehime]

Throwing up some buffs may also help in amplifying the Master Spark's damage if you're not one for grinding a little bit for a little more SP or MAG (or just plain raw levels).

[nintendonut888]

Don't have time to post stats right now, but it can't be SP that's the problem, because to keep the magic buff as high as possible I use her for Master Spark exclusively in this fight. That 43k was at max SP.

EDIT: Actually I just remembered it doesn't even take two minutes to get an image like that, so here:



My team is now in their low to mid 60s BTW.

BTW, no way in hell am I grinding on floor 13. >_> That floor lags worse than any other in the game, and I never even completely filled in the map. Another nice thing about floor 15 is that even though I've filled the map in a good amount it still runs at a good speed.

[Pesco]

Why is her mag not at level 100?

[yoshicookiezeus]

Oh god

Spoiler:

Yuugi's

attacks are powerful. At least she was nice enough to only ever attack the person in the first slot... Though I got kind of lucky at the end, when Meiling went down and I had to keep switching people in only to have them destroyed by the next attack. Luckily Rumia and Marisa managed to take her down before I ran out of party members.

Also, 7F boss's Flowing Hellfire takes out everyone except Meiling in one shot. I assume that this means that I have to grind for a bit?

[Pesco]

Ahahaha noob. The levels in Att and Def are wasted. The Affinities are not needed.

[Garlyle]

Oh god

Spoiler:

Yuugi's

attacks are powerful. At least she was nice enough to only ever attack the person in the first slot... Though I got kind of lucky at the end, when Meiling went down and I had to keep switching people in only to have them destroyed by the next attack. Luckily Rumia and Marisa managed to take her down before I ran out of party members.

Also, 7F boss's Flowing Hellfire takes out everyone except Meiling in one shot. I assume that this means that I have to grind for a bit?

A little, yeah.  This isn't that uncommon for when you face it.  With that said, the F7 boss also runs on a pattern.  After Flowing Hellfire, it does about three turns of normal attacks before using Hellfire again.  I think it's three, it may be four.  Anyway, the trick is to let Meiling survive it, then swap in characters to heal/buff her.  Swap in a speedster like Chen or Aya to deal some damage out, and you may want to consider Cirno to take advantage of its massive CLD weakness, plus its vulneurability to PAR and SPD debuffing, to give you more time.  If you can't kill it before it uses Hellfire again, swap the rest of your party back into reserve, let Meiling soak up the damage, and pull them back out after.

[LHCling]

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/2695/30466566.jpg.

I seriously have no idea why you're not pumping MAG higher. It's still a cheap investment at that point. So to speak I'm saying something along the lines of:

Why is her mag not at level 100?

Here's my Marisa's current Skill Point Distribution; note that I've left it untouched going from 14F to where I am now (reason being: I didn't find it necessary to increase it higher; the way I play should be evidence of that). Note: Haven't removed the equipment yet so ignore the actual stats themselves.

ITT Post Marisa stats.

Also, 7F boss's Flowing Hellfire takes out everyone except Meiling in one shot. I assume that this means that I have to grind for a bit?

Once you get

Spoiler:

Yuugi

, that's another potential person who can take a Flowing Hellfire. If you also have been investing in Minoriko, then she's another potential person who can take it, given the proper equipment (note that you might not even need to increase FIR Affinity). I recall using Reimu as a 4th person to take it as well, but I needed to equip 2 Bomb Rings (you should have quite a few of those now) to be able to do that.

[Ghaleon]

I wouldn't say defense is wasted on Marisa.. I just wouldn't put as many points into it as her other stats. But in all seriousness, it's actually pretty dumb IMO to not spend at least 10 points in defense or something when it costs less than 200 skillpoints and you make like 500+ per battle or something by that part of the game (I forget how much, I'm sure it's over 300 though).
20% more defense may not be much on someone like Marisa sure, but it actually *DOES* mean she gets 2shot instead of 1shot in some cases from attacks like arrow rain or needle parade (when buffed). Even if you buff her in battle defense, she'll croak to physical multi spells for sure if you leave defense alone.. This goes for any character btw. You need to think with math instead of absolutes. 10% of 100 is less than 10% of 10000 sure (which is an exageration of even flan attack to flan mnd, which is the most extreme case of them all). But 100%-110% of 100 for the price of 8 skillpoints gives you a better value than 800%-810% for the price of 500000 skillpoints.

If the skillpoint cost didn't grow as you increased it, just sticking with 2 major stats would definately be the way to go, but it does.

[Jaimers]

Yay! I beat Youmu! \o/
Talk about difficulty out of nowhere. Probably shouldn't have had so much problems with her, but then again I think I was pretty underleveled. Is level 11 low?  :V
Luck was on my side as I managed to slow her down and paralyse her so much she barely had any chance to attack.

Oh well, time for new and exciting stuff!

[Garlyle]

Yay! I beat Youmu! \o/
Talk about difficulty out of nowhere. Probably shouldn't have had so much problems with her, but then again I think I was pretty underleveled. Is level 11 low?  :V
Luck was on my side as I managed to slow her down and paralyse her so much she barely had any chance to attack.

Oh well, time for new and exciting stuff!

No, that sounds about right; most people seem to take her down at around level 12 or so.  But yeah, she is a fairly luck-based boss for so early in the game.  Good job though.

[Ghaleon]

Yay! I beat Youmu! \o/
Talk about difficulty out of nowhere. Probably shouldn't have had so much problems with her, but then again I think I was pretty underleveled. Is level 11 low?  :V
Luck was on my side as I managed to slow her down and paralyse her so much she barely had any chance to attack.

Oh well, time for new and exciting stuff!

11 isn't low, but it's not high either. She's a dumb boss fight IMO. I pretty much had no trouble with alot of the bosses after her, including some of the notoriously hard ones like Alice and the 12F and 18F boss. But even on my 2nd playthru, Youmu pwnt me on my first attempt.

[nintendonut888]

Like was said before, buffing the defense of characters like Marisa and Patchy means that they will be able to survive one more attack. As for why magic is so low, to be honest I just noticed yesterday that magic was so cheap to raise that it was still at 300 skill points a buff. ;>_>

Also affinities are quite important when Marisa dies to a single Ihakasa's Moon Curse. Heck, I poured 20000 or so skill points purely into raising Sanae's affinities, and she can suddenly survive much longer.

[Garlyle]

Like was said before, buffing the defense of characters like Marisa and Patchy means that they will be able to survive one more attack. As for why magic is so low, to be honest I just noticed yesterday that magic was so cheap to raise that it was still at 300 skill points a buff. ;>_>

Also affinities are quite important when Marisa dies to a single Ihakasa's Moon Curse. Heck, I poured 20000 or so skill points purely into raising Sanae's affinities, and she can suddenly survive much longer.

Well, the thing about Defense on characters like Marisa and Patchy is that it's so low that the skill points you invest won't even have that much of an effect.  Neither of them have the HP that 'that little extra bit' will usually help too much.  You'd generally be better putting those points into SPD or their offensive stats, or at least their MND, to make them better at what they already do.  Generally I've found that trying to cover up for a weakness in this game doesn't work as well as switching to a character who is better at that, or just trying to avoid having that weakness be exploited.

Mind you affinites are a bit of a special case.  They can help, but the biggest difference is getting them up over 100 so the character isn't recieving increased damage.  The farther up it goes, the less and less the affinity will make a difference (And you won't be at the point where the difference between a natural 175 and 200 makes a huge enough difference for the skill point investment to be important for a long time).

Of course it's all up to you.  I just find that in general, focusing on a character's strength is far more rewarding in the long run than trying to amp up their weak stats, with the notable exception of SPD and neutralizing low affinities being fairly important to everyone.

[Ghaleon]

Well, the thing about Defense on characters like Marisa and Patchy is that it's so low that the skill points you invest won't even have that much of an effect.  Neither of them have the HP that 'that little extra bit' will usually help too much.  You'd generally be better putting those points into SPD or their offensive stats, or at least their MND, to make them better at what they already do.  Generally I've found that trying to cover up for a weakness in this game doesn't work as well as switching to a character who is better at that, or just trying to avoid having that weakness be exploited.

Mind you affinites are a bit of a special case.  They can help, but the biggest difference is getting them up over 100 so the character isn't recieving increased damage.  The farther up it goes, the less and less the affinity will make a difference (And you won't be at the point where the difference between a natural 175 and 200 makes a huge enough difference for the skill point investment to be important for a long time).

Of course it's all up to you.  I just find that in general, focusing on a character's strength is far more rewarding in the long run than trying to amp up their weak stats, with the notable exception of SPD and neutralizing low affinities being fairly important to everyone.

I'm trying to say (and I know you aren't replying to me but I k now some people, possibly you too may not agree with me) that you don't try to cover up a character's weakness by spending skillpoints into their weaknesses. But rather, you spend some points into them when it's cheap. I mean, is it really a loss to lose 4 skillpoints raising marisa's defense skill level from 1 to 2? I mean will it help? probably not, but I rekon it will help more than 4 skillpoints will HURT.

You just stop before the cost becomes somewhat significant.

You definately shouldn't have it nearly as high as their main stats though.

If a character's poor defense stat is 1/5 as high as their good stats, and their skill level is going to make 1/5 of a difference, why the hell not buff it 5 times more than your main stat when it costs a lot LESS than 1/5 of the cost to do so.

[Garlyle]

I'm trying to say (and I know you aren't replying to me but I k now some people, possibly you too may not agree with me) that you don't try to cover up a character's weakness by spending skillpoints into their weaknesses. But rather, you spend some points into them when it's cheap. I mean, is it really a loss to lose 4 skillpoints raising marisa's defense skill level from 1 to 2? I mean will it help? probably not, but I rekon it will help more than 4 skillpoints will HURT.

You just stop before the cost becomes somewhat significant.

You definately shouldn't have it nearly as high as their main stats though.

If a character's poor defense stat is 1/5 as high as their good stats, and their skill level is going to make 1/5 of a difference, why the hell not buff it 5 times more than your main stat when it costs a lot LESS than 1/5 of the cost to do so.

...This is startilngly logical.

[nintendonut888]

YYYYYYYYYES. I beat Mokou at long last!

Also oh man floor 16 and I still haven't beaten Orin. I should probably go and try again. Also I'm going to be on floor 16 for a long time, aren't I? :[

[trancehime]

And you never permanently lose skill points ANYWAY, as far as I'm concerned. Patchy and Marisa's p.dur is far from stellar, and Patchy's is probably unsalvageable. But it's still worth the small costs. It adds up.

Mind you affinites are a bit of a special case.  They can help, but the biggest difference is getting them up over 100 so the character isn't recieving increased damage.  The farther up it goes, the less and less the affinity will make a difference (And you won't be at the point where the difference between a natural 175 and 200 makes a huge enough difference for the skill point investment to be important for a long time).

Truth. You only really need to consider getting resistances past 200 once you're F25 or higher.

I had to pump my resistances well over 500 before the bosses on the 30F began to do tolerable damage to me, and equipments can augment that even more - especially shit like Physical Reactors.

[AlexX Unlimited]

Why is her mag not at level 100?

Pretty much all my chars have 40-50 in their major stats and I can handle everything on floor 16, and could probably beat its boss without much more investment if I wasn't lazy and used a calculator to tell the exact HP the boss has remaining.

It's that low because I keep adding new characters to my team, who eat up all my reserves in order to bring them up to par with the rest. It's really hard to try out multiple new chars and not end up having to grind for more skillpoints. Especially if you're ending up with effectively an exploration team and bosskilling team, all of which have to survive on the same skillpoint pool... It should be easier now that my final team is pretty much set, as I don't plan on using anyone else from F14 other than the one I worked specifically towards getting, nor do I plan to use anyone who joins after, nor 12F girl who is still annoyingly refusing to join. However, my pool for skillpoints is still effectively dry and beating on some enemies will hardly be enough to bring all my major damage-dealers to 100 in their major stats...