Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2

[Serela]

...Huh. I won. :V I completely wiped the floor with them this time. Amazing.

WELP. Onto floor 13...at last.

Yay!

Make sure to use Eirin and Reisen for now, even if you don't like them, if you want to have access to Kaguya as soon as possible. You'll need lots (and I mean LOTS) of BP for Eirin/Reisen/Sanae/Mokou combined.

[nintendonut888]

'Kay. Just one final reiteration...do they HAVE to be in my front 4 to get BP? Because if they don't, I'll be saved a lot of frustration.

[Rikter]

Should I take out Youmu or her Ghost Half first when I have to fight her?

[Serela]

'Kay. Just one final reiteration...do they HAVE to be in my front 4 to get BP? Because if they don't, I'll be saved a lot of frustration.

I heard someone you get 1 point if they're in the back row. But I don't know if that is true, and that still only means half as many as front row; and you need 1000 total points between Sanae/Eirin/Reisen/Mokou. Kaguya is avaliable after hitting 16F and 1k points, so... you'll have to use them front row a lot if you want her soon.

At least Sanae is great and Reisen is good for 16F boss.


And, Ghost Half first.

[nintendonut888]

HMM...I have a better idea. :yukkuri:

* Donut goes to grind on floor 1

I'd much rather take the time to just do it all in one sitting rather than hold my team back by using someone like Reisen. I'll just do this a few times, and...

[Serela]

HMM...I have a better idea. :yukkuri:

* Donut goes to grind on floor 1

I'd much rather take the time to just do it all in one sitting rather than hold my team back by using someone like Reisen. I'll just do this a few times, and...

If your gonna do that, I'd wait till you get Mokou. 2 more points per battle will shave a LOT of time from the grinding. Also, since you're already using Sanae (right?) just try to include her in lots of the random battles.

[nintendonut888]

Indeed I am using Sanae. All I had to do was put some buffing into her speed, attach an accelerator module (wow, who would have thought you'd get one of these in a random battle?), and she's one of the faster members of my team to compensate for the delay. And yes I've been keeping her in random battles.

In case you're interested, here is my current lineup:

Reimu
Marisa
Cirno
Alice
Meiling
Patchouli
Eirin (just replaced Tenshi, who seems to be more useful for bosses than random battles)
Ran
Sanae
Suwako
Komachi
Yugi

Well, just upped my BP by like 70 or so, time to head on to new territory. o/

[Ghaleon]

I'm curious, I notice that when I want to launch the game using applocal, I get an hourglass cursor for like.. FREAKING FOREVER.. with this and only this game, anybody else get this?

[Serela]

I'm curious, I notice that when I want to launch the game using applocal, I get an hourglass cursor for like.. FREAKING FOREVER.. with this and only this game, anybody else get this?

I've heard of other people opening the game with applocale, and I personally have Japanese as a secondary language on my computer which works just as well. Its really nice, because that way the game uses the really pretty font that it comes with instead of the other skinny crap it comes with.

[Pesco]

It just occured to me that nobody can answer my level question without first knowing the formula used between level ups. I'm not good at writing such formulas myself but I can see a pattern. I used Yukari to level because she was still at level 1 on my save and because her first level up to level 2 costs exactly 100 exp.

level2: 100,level 3: 201, 336, 504, 705, 940, 1209, 1512, 1848, 2217, etc.

Seems like level 3 and 4 are out of place slightly. But every other level seems to cost the same as the previous level +34..or 33.something.

How about this: Hack a char's level up rating. Adjust it for a whole bunch of values and see what it does to their exp required to level up. I did one test with Reimu only. Adjusting her level up rating from 90 to 9 changed her exp required from 64 to 6. The ratings probably are in direct proportion to the exp required, but the exp amount you need should still be graphed for a better idea.

On the same note, anyone tell me how the stat growth numbers are applied?

[MysTeariousYukari]

Twinked/hacked saves! Who needs what sort? Send your requests here

Could I request the address/line of stuff that is needed to give me more Gold Cloth? Right now, it seems to be the best piece of equipment overall.

Donut, for your party selection I see that you use Yuugi. I have to ask, is she any good for you?

At what levels are we talking about and how many skillpoints are invested in each girl and their defenses

Well right now there is a minor level difference, caused by their level rates, and the fact that Meiling has never left my main 12 and Tenshi only got put in the main 12... twice? The 1st time I used Tenshi, she had the same DEF and MND Skp levels as Meiling... I think it was 30 or sumthin like that, I forget the exact number. At that point Tenshi was hitting for more then 0s but Meiling was hitting harder. I also had Level Bonus's put into Meilings ATK and HP as well as DEF and MND while for Tenshi, Pure DEF and MND.

Spoiler:

I fought Utsuho recently and floored her so hard, Kanako probly felt it xD Utsuho used Giga Flare on me, and I said "oh crud, this may hurt a bit" then I see the top damage was around 25k to either Remi or Meiling and the lowest was like 11k to I think... either Reimu, Yukari or Patchy... Please note that Meiling and Remi had over 110k Max HP or so at the time

Spoiler:

Similarly, Shikieiki/Sikieiki/Eiki only got 2 or 3 turns before she was beaten into the floor so hard their was a crater xD

[Ghaleon]

How about this: Hack a char's level up rating. Adjust it for a whole bunch of values and see what it does to their exp required to level up. I did one test with Reimu only. Adjusting her level up rating from 90 to 9 changed her exp required from 64 to 6. The ratings probably are in direct proportion to the exp required, but the exp amount you need should still be graphed for a better idea.

Err? Yeah I imagine that would be the case. I'm not stumped by the actual level up formula, which is, as I said (excluding the first 2 levels) something to the effect of: L+=L+33.something. I'm not 100% accurate with it because that's not my biggest concern. I'm not even sure how to describe what it is I need better than I already did >=(

On the same note, anyone tell me how the stat growth numbers are applied?

Well, speed and sp are wonky. But the rest is a simple 1:1 conversion per level, Just bear in mind that they will be thrown off from skill levels, level up bonus stat thingies, equipment, etc. I assume speed is weird because it actually represents 0.0X or whatever, and maybe SP is 0.X.
But I'm not sure if that's what you mean cuz I imagine you already knew that.

[Pesco]

Could I request the address/line of stuff that is needed to give me more Gold Cloth? Right now, it seems to be the best piece of equipment overall.

Delivery in about 10 hours or less.

Well, speed and sp are wonky. But the rest is a simple 1:1 conversion per level, Just bear in mind that they will be thrown off from skill levels, level up bonus stat thingies, equipment, etc. I assume speed is weird because it actually represents 0.0X or whatever, and maybe SP is 0.X.
But I'm not sure if that's what you mean cuz I imagine you already knew that.

Reimu's att growth is 8, so she gains 8 att per levelup? Something liek that?

[scherzo]

On the same note, anyone tell me how the stat growth numbers are applied?

From Pooshlmer (and ultimately from some pastebin document that is no longer available):
HP = ((Lvl+6)*Growth Rate + 12) * HP multiplier
SP = ((Lvl/8)*Growth Rate + 100) * SP multiplier
Spd = ((Lvl/32)*Growth Rate) * Spd multiplier + 100
Eva = ((Lvl/12)*Growth Rate + 2) * Eva multiplier
Atk/Def/Matk/Mdef = ((Lvl/4)*Growth Rate) * corresponding multiplier

You should check to make sure these formulas are accurate.

[Pesco]

Cheat Engine won't track decimals for stats. The various multipliers should be around somewhere in the documentation hopefully.

[Fishin]

Ouch.  Finally got around to finishing the 16F puzzle after not playing for a couple of days, decided to see how hard

Spoiler:

Yukari

was, and

Spoiler:

Tenshi

gets one shotted with State of Enlightment in effect.  I can tell this is going to be fun.

[Ghaleon]

From Pooshlmer (and ultimately from some pastebin document that is no longer available):
HP = ((Lvl+6)*Growth Rate + 12) * HP multiplier
SP = ((Lvl/8)*Growth Rate + 100) * SP multiplier
Spd = ((Lvl/32)*Growth Rate) * Spd multiplier + 100
Eva = ((Lvl/12)*Growth Rate + 2) * Eva multiplier
Atk/Def/Matk/Mdef = ((Lvl/4)*Growth Rate) * corresponding multiplier

You should check to make sure these formulas are accurate.

I'm not really sure how accurate the formulas are for hp, spd, eva, spd. But I can tell you that's not it for atk/def/mag/mnd. Seems to be a 1:1 ratio from what I can tell.

Reimu's att growth is 8, so she gains 8 att per levelup? Something liek that?

yes. Or so it appears from my end. Wriggle at level 1 gets 10 atk at level 2 without any gear or skillpoints or whatever, same with mnd and all that. Well actually I noticed that in the case of Iku's mag, she got 1 more than the wiki said, possibly she was just buffed since a patch or something. But that seems likely given I rarely hear people compliment her in the game, and it certainly isn't growing at 1/4 like that formula would suggest.

[LHCling]

Spoiler:

Yukari

or

Spoiler:

Flan

or even that last Sigil Guardian sitting around on 15F.

Chances are, I'm underlevelled with Reimu Lv72  :V
Well, my gut instinct says that I should be able to take on the second of the three listed first, then the Sigil Guardian and finally... ...

Might consider a grind... for the sake of getting BP to get a certain character which I might not bother using.
Either way, progress.

[scherzo]

I'm not really sure how accurate the formulas are for hp, spd, eva, spd. But I can tell you that's not it for atk/def/mag/mnd. Seems to be a 1:1 ratio from what I can tell.

Ok, the nameless fairy in question made a typo: it's actually Atk/Def/Matk/Mdef = ((Lvl+4)*Growth Rate) * corresponding multiplier + constant [the constant being character dependent]. I checked this formula for Atk and it's accurate.

The relevant info is all here: http://www19.atwiki.jp/th_maze/pages/19.html .

[Ghaleon]

Ok, the nameless fairy in question made a typo: it's actually Atk/Def/Matk/Mdef = ((Lvl+4)*Growth Rate) * corresponding multiplier + constant [the constant being character dependent]. I checked this formula for Atk and it's accurate.

The relevant info is all here: http://www19.atwiki.jp/th_maze/pages/19.html .

Yeah that's better.. the Lvl+4 and the constant are just values that contribute to their starting value, none of them change on a level basis, so per level up, all you really get is the level*growth rate.. the multiplier is gear, skillpoint level, level up bonus stats, etc.

[Axel Ryman]

Could I request the address/line of stuff that is needed to give me more Gold Cloth? Right now, it seems to be the best piece of equipment overall.

Spoiler:

00122168

I'm thinking of making a Cht file that has all the equipment, SP/EXP gains, and the encounter rate(thanks Pesco!) all in one to save time if people are interested.


Edit: All done, though for some reason when I try to get the address for the EXP gained after battle it doesn't work. However now all 15 pages of items have been saved in my CHT file, including the SP gained after battle as well as the encounter rate. Maybe I should put it in my sig as a download for those who want it. Up to you guys really.  :V

[trancehime]

Yeah that's better.. the Lvl+4 and the constant are just values that contribute to their starting value, none of them change on a level basis, so per level up, all you really get is the level*growth rate.. the multiplier is gear, skillpoint level, level up bonus stats, etc.

It is worth noting that stat growths on level up in this game are almost entirely level-based quadratic.

This is why level is the God Stat, literally.

[Pesco]

Idea for testing: Do you gain more, spending say a million exp, leveling up a char from 1 -> 2 repeatedly or leveling normally?



First one (lvl 24) was repeating lvl 1 -> 2 for 23 times
Second one (lvl 7) was normal leveling 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> 6 -> 7
Third one (lvl 11) was lvl 1 hacked into lvl 10 -> 11

Spending roughly the same amount of exp, making a single higher, levelup is more beneficial.

Edit: Here's a handy formula for anyone wanting to screw around with the characters themselves.

Battle points address - char level address = 1C8

Max hp address - char level address = 10

Spell 1 sp cost address - char level address = 160

These are hex values. Run a search for a char's hp, you always get at least 2 addresses. The first address will be the max, the second is their current. Use the info above and off you go.

Treat the char's level address as you starting point, here's what all the numbers are in sequence:

Level
Exp pool
Level up rating
recovery rate
max hp
current hp
max sp
current sp
max tp
current tp
Att
Def
Mag
Mnd
Spd
Eva
Att growth
Def growth
Mag growth
Mnd growth
Spd growth
Eva growth
Att multiplier
Def multiplier
Mag multiplier
Mnd multiplier
Spd multiplier
Eva multiplier
Fir aff
Cld aff
Wnd aff
Ntr aff
Mys aff
Spi aff
Psn res
Par res
Mut res
Dth res
Debuff res
hp level
sp level
tp level
Att level
Def level
Mag level
Mnd level
Spd level
Eva level
Fir level
Cld level
Wnd level
Ntr level
Mys level
Spi level
(huge address gap)
spell 1 sp cost
spell 2 sp cost
spell 3 sp cost
spell 4 sp cost
spell 5 sp cost
(huge address gap)
battle points

[nintendonut888]

I won't say anything about the gimmick of floor 13 since I'm just getting started, but I CAN say that the enemies on this floor are way too strong! D: Those swords can one shot even my tanks if they target the same person twice.

Oh well, I'm just glad to be in somewhere new, and to have comfort in knowing I'm not going to be stopped up again until floor 16.

[Garlyle]

Idea for testing: Do you gain more, spending say a million exp, leveling up a char from 1 -> 2 repeatedly or leveling normally?

........What?

Aside from the impossibility of your initial request for non-hacked play, the only actual question involved is "Does it reset your statistical value"?  Which I think it does given that everything is strictly formulaic based on your current level, but I don't know.  If it resets your statistical value, then no, you need to level up normally.  Otherwise, you would gain more on the sheer basis that your levelups would cost far less, so you'd get more of them.

[Serela]

Spoiler:

Yukari

or

Spoiler:

Flan

or even that last Sigil Guardian sitting around on 15F.

Chances are, I'm underlevelled with Reimu Lv72  :V
Well, my gut instinct says that I should be able to take on the second of the three listed first, then the Sigil Guardian and finally... ...

Might consider a grind... for the sake of getting BP to get a certain character which I might not bother using.
Either way, progress.

At this point, you should be able to beat Lily Sigil and maybe

Spoiler:

Kaguya's Foe. Flandre, you should win around lv75~80. Yukari... that heavily depends on your party, but its around lv75~85. You'll beat Flan first.

I'd take out Lily Sigil if you can, and then explore all of 16F; Lily Sigil warps on 16F lead to great treasures. If you can't handle 16F battles very well, you might consider grinding on 15F, which gives basically the same EXP and SKP if I remember correctly.

[Pesco]

........What?

Aside from the impossibility of your initial request for non-hacked play, the only actual question involved is "Does it reset your statistical value"?  Which I think it does given that everything is strictly formulaic based on your current level, but I don't know.  If it resets your statistical value, then no, you need to level up normally.  Otherwise, you would gain more on the sheer basis that your levelups would cost far less, so you'd get more of them.

Screenshot above with my results. Repeated leveling done by keeping the char level constant in CE resulted in no stat gains at all except for where you put the levelup bonus. I had to level up and readjust the char level.

[AlexX Unlimited]

I won't say anything about the gimmick of floor 13 since I'm just getting started, but I CAN say that the enemies on this floor are way too strong! D: Those swords can one shot even my tanks if they target the same person twice.

Aquabitch's Illusion Waterfall made mincemeat out of all of them for me. It seems they, as a whole, have lower DEF than MND (or are just that weak to CLD, but I kinda doubt it), so if you have something that deals heavy damage to enemies with low defense that should be effective.

[Ghaleon]

Aquabitch's Illusion Waterfall made mincemeat out of all of them for me. It seems they, as a whole, have lower DEF than MND (or are just that weak to CLD, but I kinda doubt it), so if you have something that deals heavy damage to enemies with low defense that should be effective.

I remember the evil swordfish of doom. Killing them isn't a problem, it's not getting killed by them first because unless you are overlevel, they move first.

edit: Still no response about the level up dillema I have for my theorycrafting project. I posted for help somewhere else. No luck there. However I came up with a brainstorm.

I don't know math but I know programming. So.. If it's somehow possible to translate programming language math into real life plain old calculator math I'd appreciate it.. Here goes (note the spaces weren't showing, hence the ----s), (also note 72 is the amount of experience required (derived from yukari's level up cost of 100 and 201 for her first two levels divided by her 1.4 multiplier) to reach level 2 and 3, whereas every level past that seem to have a recognizeable pattern).

Level up formula(modifier,experience value) =
int Final level(1)
while(experience value > 0)
--while(Final level < 4)
----experience value = experience value - 72 * modifier
------if(experience value >= 0)
--------Final level++
--experience value = experience value - 24 * modifier
--if(experience value >= 0)
----Final level++
return Final level ;

Edit: Should I post this in rika's garage or something? I rekon there might be a greater chance of attracting a math head in there, but I don't know if asking for help regarding formulas for wiki info is considered on-topic for that forum.

[AlexX Unlimited]

I remember the evil swordfish of doom. Killing them isn't a problem, it's not getting killed by them first because unless you are overlevel, they move first.

Chen with some speed-boosting equipment should be able to do it. Just have to be sure that she uses her ATK buff before doing so, as if memory serves that floor is where she starts needing it for even random encounters. I'm assuming Aya can do the same, as well.