Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2

[Pesco]

Yeah, I dumped Youmu really really early, but managed to snag enough bp for her somehow. The BP requirements for Orin's thing really isn't too bad.

The BP requirement to get kaggy on the other hand...ugh.

It won't be a problem once I figure out the address pattern.

[Krimmydoodle]

STFU >=P.

I had to run around for over 2 hours farming exp for sanae, Eirin, Mokou, and Reisen. I didn't like Mokou or Reisen at all, so they had none. Sanae was more for bosses than actual trash clearing, so she had none. And I didn't bother using Eirin either for my first game because I didn't notice the overhealing part of the her spell for some reason.

That was an honest question.  I've never used any of the IN cast.  Ever.

[Deranged]

That was an honest question.  I've never used any of the IN cast.  Ever.

Yes, she does. She needs 1000 BP between the 4 mentioned. Since only 3 of them are IN cast members, that probably means you dragged the fourth everywhere with you.

[AlexX Unlimited]

That was an honest question.  I've never used any of the IN cast.  Ever.

Yet strangely, I love the entire cast that influences her joining and used most of them until floor 16 (dropping two, but still potentially swapping in either if the current boss requires their expertise), and yet she would STILL refuse to join me. ;.;

[Pesco]

Adjustable details found:

Max and current values of tp, hp, sp
All stats. Note: These are final values, can't find the base yet.
All affinities
All resists
Char level and all stat levels
Recovery rate
Battle points
Sp costs for spells (!!)
Current exp pool

Any other details of a char that you guys still want?

[Serela]

If you want to get Kaguya as soon as you can (Aka while exploring 16F) then make sure to throw Reisen, Eirin, and Sanae into your party, even if you'll just dump them as soon as you can get Kaguya. Mokou, I'd only stick in if you actually want to keep her, because you get her a lot later then the earlier 3, and it's better not to waste a ton of skillpoints on characters you won't use if you can help it.

3 of them should do fine if you want her as soon as you can; just use them for the random battles while exploring, and do so as much as possible, especially if grinding. That way you should be able to get her slightly before/around the time you'll be able to beat her boss.

Or, pick whichever one you wouldn't mind having as your save character, and tell someone who knows how to hack to take advantage of this  :V

BP is pretty easy to hack if you know how it works (ie you get one for being in the starting lineup of a battle and one for being in the finishing lineup - use Increased Value by).

[Pesco]

Just figured out some more numbers that can be messed around with. Each char's stat growth and level up difficulty can be adjusted.

Still no findings on base stats. But I did find a very far outlying address that is basically for display purposes when equipping a char or leveling them up. It shows what their new stat will look like. No Idea how to make use of it yet :/.

[nintendonut888]

So, just to reiterate, to raise BP I have to have them in my front four during battle, not just in my 8 reserve? Eeeeeh...

Time to go grindin'.

[nintendonut888]

Alright! I've finally gotten everything in this damn labyrinth except for Tenshi. Now to fight the Eientei trio.

* Donut comes back two minutes later on a crutch

I can tell I'm supposed to get rid of Kaguya first, but that is proving to be impossible.

[LHCling]

I can tell I'm supposed to get rid of Kaguya first

tea coffeespit.jpg

Honestly, I'm going to suggest that you go after Tenshi first. A hell of a lot easier.
Starting to hate

Spoiler:

Orin

, mainly because of the annoyances which are the

Spoiler:

Knights

.

Oh, and a recommended level range for

Spoiler:

Flan

?

[scherzo]

I don't agree at all, it DOES force you to grind. I'm sorry, but I'm not playing incorrectly when the said 21F joinable casts gigaflare and has undefendable damage greater than your tank's max hp. It's just says "level more dur", same with the baal avatar. The other 3 sigil bosses are pretty cool yes, but that's about it IMO. The other bosses are regular every day bosses with no challenge except the 20% health focus mode my next spell WILL kill you, it gets boring really fast when you've seen that for the 3rd time in a row.

Spoiler:

The trick with Giga Flare is that a) its MYS damage b) Utsuho always casts it right as she gets under 4 million hp. You can set up some high hp characters (I used Flan and Komachi) to take a hit from Giga Flare and unload on Utsuho so you only have to survive one casting. Here's the setup: Utsuho is right at the edge of 4 million hp, Utsuho has just used a spell with larger delay than "Uncontained Nuclear Reaction", I have three fast moving chars + Kanako on the front row. I want to swap in Kaggy, Flan, and Yukari in order to execute the following sequence:
Suiga -> BSB on Kanako -> Suiga -> Starbow -> Spriting Away -> Hourai Barrage -> Flan swaps in Komachi for Kaggy -> Suiga -> Giga Flare, Komachi and Flan survive -> Starbow -> Komachi swaps in Kaggy -> BSB on Flan or Hourai Barrage to win (some numbers: starting at +80% and going down, Suiga does 900-700k, Starbow and Hourai Barrage do 550-450k. I have Flan's MYS resist at >750).
I found the real problem to be Utsuho's speed, and UNR's low delay. It's a tough but doable challenge to juggle healing, buffing (defensive, offensive, and speed), and dps in order to chop off that 6 million hp between the first casting of UNR and Giga Flare. You need to do it quickly to reduce the chances that Utsuho will chain cast UNR and buff up her MAG to unwinnable levels. The fight is probably winnable at lvl 250 (as the jwiki suggests) but I waited until 260 and was able to do it fairly safely then. Given that I was ~250 after collecting and doing everything on 27F (while using maps to explore), I don't think this is an excessive amount of grind.

Regarding the three focus then kill bosses (Yuka, Shikieiki, and Kedamagrammaton), I found Yuka pretty challenging even before focus. She has some strong nukes and a powerful self-heal, after all. Still, I would agree with you that these aren't the most interesting plus disk bosses. Kedamagrammaton is a joke in any case, and Shiki's focus being random is ridiculous.

I think the problem with the plus disk is that there is an overall lack of the feeling of progression. Each and every floor you traverse from 1-20 rewards you with new encounters that are more rewarding, filled with treasure that is progressively better, often giving you multiple new joinables after every floor. In the plus disk, a new joinable is a rare thing, 3 of them can be obtained without ever entering floor 21, so they don't even really feel like plus disk content. Not to mention there are only 2 pieces of music that are new. Hell, even the art for the enemies look kinda strange IMO.

I would agree that wandering around in the plus disk (in fact, the postgame as a whole) often seems aimless. There's no real conclusion. It's basically just killing enemies in order to take on stronger enemies. I feel the fights are worth it, but many people would probably think otherwise.

Are you thinking about any enemies in particular (like perhaps the Giant Kedamas )?

[Serela]

I can tell I'm supposed to get rid of Kaguya first, but that is proving to be impossible.

Actually... if you kill Kaguya or Eirin, the other unlocks a mass nuke that will (And I mean WILL) 0hko your entire party. In my experience, Kaguya often doesn't use it for awhile while Eirin casts it instantly, but that may just be luck.

I've never seen Eirin not cast it instantly (and sometimes before Kaggy even dies), while I've had Kaguya go for 5 turns before she kicked the bucket, without casting it. And yes, I nearly had a heart attack at that point, because that entire time I had 4 characters with either bad damage or bad SP recovery, and no one had any SP left.

Reisen is HIGHLY vulnerable to PAR (Probably 100% chance to hit), while Eirin and Kaguya are fairly vulnerable to it. Reimu and Cirno's PAR attacks are very helpful. You may decide to take Reisen out first, but she isn't terribly annoying if your first slot is resistant to debuffs.

Group PAR attacks, Reimu's heal, DEF/MND buffs, and Royal Flare were all things I found to be incredibly important in this battle.

[Reprosa]

I found slotting suwako in was helpful too. Moriya's Iron Ring is decent damage and a much higher chance to land PAR than Evil Sealing Circle or... whatever the hell Cirno uses.

[Serela]

I found slotting suwako in was helpful too. Moriya's Iron Ring is decent damage and a much higher chance to land PAR than Evil Sealing Circle or... whatever the hell Cirno uses.

Actually, PAR attacks have the same chance to take effect; same with PSN. The PAR power simply dictates how long it will last. Suwako's is only single-target anyway, so it isn't as useful in this fight despite its massive PAR time, and it does bad damage against Reisen's high MYS affinity.

Still better then having Reisen get to attack; but Suwako probably won't last long in this fight with her fragile nature anyway. Her nuke is still quite helpful as well.

[AlexX Unlimited]

Actually... if you kill Kaguya or Eirin, the other unlocks a mass nuke that will (And I mean WILL) 0hko your entire party. In my experience, Kaguya often doesn't use it for awhile while Eirin casts it instantly, but that may just be luck.

My experience was the other way around, taking me by total surprise. Heck, my victory surprised me so much I used the largest font the forum could allow just to express it.

[nintendonut888]

Beat Tenshi my first try. She wasn't so tough once I figured out her gimmick. Taking a break for now (been playing all day), but next time I will devote some time to seeing if I'm capable of beating the Eienteis yet. My average level is 48-52 BTW.

EDIT: Heh. After pooling all my attacks onto Kaguya, I beat her. Then Astronomical Entombing came and decimated Patchy. Maybe I do have no choice but to grind some more...?

[Ghaleon]

stuff

All that assumes you looked at the wiki, and are counting how much damage you have dealt to the boss. That's not exactly something I like doing, then I feel like some guide is playing the game instead of me >=P. Using that strat, it's basically a focus-enrage nuke boss without the focus yet again.

Anyway, if anybody trips across some info or whatever that shows you enemy def/mnd values let me know please. Figuring out def isn't so hard, but it's slow. mnd is a bit more difficult since there is no "attack" command that uses mag/mnd.

Any math heads able to tell me how to calculate level difference between characters? For example the wiki says reimu has a level modifier of 0.9, and Remilia is something like 1.32 or something. But the actual difference in level between the two isn't nearly so vast because those multipliers aren't accurate for their current level, just equal levels (and they wont be equal for long). I hope that makes sense.

The speed formula is also a bit more complicated than I initially suspected. It seems that someone with 2X the speed growth as someone else only goes about 40% faster at high levels (high levels being where your slowest person has at least 200 speed, things are quite different before 200), and it stays at roughly (within 4% or so) 40% for pretty much the entire game (I mean plus disk included). Kinda makes me wonder if pumping speed up on a fast character is really any better than doing it on a slow character, because despite getting more points to the stat, each point is worth less due to the really wonky formula speed goes thru to convert into actual action bar time.

Why the fuck did I let my counselor talk me out of taking math 12. whyyyy, physics more useful my ass.

[LHCling]

EDIT: Heh. After pooling all my attacks onto Kaguya, I beat her. Then Astronomical Entombing came and decimated Patchy. Maybe I do have no choice but to grind some more...?

Protip:

...you're not supposed to be able to survive "Astrololical Entombing" and / or "Hourai Jewel / Barrage / Whatever" at that point. You're to try and beat the battle without seeing it in essence.
Also, a pretty terrible

Spoiler:

Orin

battle; 6 people KO'd. Oh well, a win's a win.

Wonder if

Spoiler:

Flan

is possible yet?

[AlexX Unlimited]

EDIT: Heh. After pooling all my attacks onto Kaguya, I beat her. Then Astronomical Entombing came and decimated Patchy. Maybe I do have no choice but to grind some more...?

Grinding is hardly necissary for the fight, but you will need to keep track of your damage done in order to avoid having to deal with one of the nuking moves, as well as have a good strategy down for keeping your party buffed and healed (note that you'll want as much MND and MDef-buffers available, since pretty much everything they throw at your is magic-based).

[nintendonut888]

You say I don't have to grind, but for some reason I don't believe you. :[ It's not so much an issue of me being destroyed by Kaguya/Eirin once the other dies, it's the fact that I can barely take ONE of them down before I completely die. And how am I supposed to keep Kaguya and Eirin at the same health when Eirin keeps healing Kaguya? T_T

My grinding agenda, despite how long it takes, only raises everyone one level each time I do it. What are the recommended levels I be at again?

[Ghaleon]

It just occured to me that nobody can answer my level question without first knowing the formula used between level ups. I'm not good at writing such formulas myself but I can see a pattern. I used Yukari to level because she was still at level 1 on my save and because her first level up to level 2 costs exactly 100 exp.

level2: 100,level 3: 201, 336, 504, 705, 940, 1209, 1512, 1848, 2217, etc.

Seems like level 3 and 4 are out of place slightly. But every other level seems to cost the same as the previous level +34..or 33.something.

[Serela]

And how am I supposed to keep Kaguya and Eirin at the same health when Eirin keeps healing Kaguya? T_T

They have vastly different HP values and defensive stats, for one. Also, you might be okay even if one gets a turn or two off after the other kicks the bucket... if you're lucky.

But you'll need to have buffs, healing, and strong multi-hit attacks. Group PAR attacks also help. Keep in mind that if more then 3 debuffs total are on the boss group, Kaguya will use a big bad group buff on the Eientei Team, so don't try debuffing them.

I pumped Patchy's MAG and MND a good bit to help prep for this battle, since she'll be nearly invulnerable to everything that will hit her other then the meganukes, and since Royal Flare is AWESOME for this battle.

[nintendonut888]

I dunno, Dragon Necklace seems to pierce Patchy's defenses quite handily. :\ Otherwise yeah, she's pretty much a wall here.

By any chance, are any of the three weak to a certain affinity?

[Ghaleon]

I dunno, Dragon Necklace seems to pierce Patchy's defenses quite handily. :\ Otherwise yeah, she's pretty much a wall here.

By any chance, are any of the three weak to a certain affinity?

I'm not sure, but I doubt it since Kaggy is pretty much god with overall affinity stats as a playable character. I rekon spirit is the most likely candidate, I really don't think any of them are weak to it though.

[Serela]

By any chance, are any of the three weak to a certain affinity?

Bosses usually go off of the character affinity. Checking the wiki, the most significant thing is Reisen being weak against SPI attacks. I do believe I remember Ran's SPI attack doing heavy damage to Reisen.

Anyone remember the HP values for boss Eirin and Kaguya? Opening two windows calculators and keeping accurate track of their HP is a good way to make the fight easier, when you have trouble.

EDIT:Nifty wiki is nifty! http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou:_12F
HP values for joo~

[Ghaleon]

Bosses usually go off of the character affinity. Checking the wiki, the most significant thing is Reisen being weak against SPI attacks. I do believe I remember Ran's SPI attack doing heavy damage to Reisen.

Anyone remember the HP values for boss Eirin and Kaguya? Opening two windows calculators and keeping accurate track of their HP is a good way to make the fight easier, when you have trouble.

I think it was 120,000 for kaggy and 240,000 for Eirin.

[scherzo]

The speed formula is also a bit more complicated than I initially suspected. It seems that someone with 2X the speed growth as someone else only goes about 40% faster at high levels (high levels being where your slowest person has at least 200 speed, things are quite different before 200), and it stays at roughly (within 4% or so) 40% for pretty much the entire game (I mean plus disk included). Kinda makes me wonder if pumping speed up on a fast character is really any better than doing it on a slow character, because despite getting more points to the stat, each point is worth less due to the really wonky formula speed goes thru to convert into actual action bar time.

Deranged translated some information regarding this earlier in the thread. From the data provided one can derive the formula (1/2+(2*SPD/100-7/4)^1/2)*100=+Active Gauge per clock tick. You need >=10,000 active gauge points to get a turn.

EDIT: Formula fixed.

[Ghaleon]

Deranged translated some information regarding this earlier in the thread. From the data provided one can derive the formula (1+(SPD/100)^1/2)*100=+Active Gauge per clock tick. You need >=10,000 active gauge points to get a turn.

Yeah I know that's what I used to figure out the 40% thing, thanks anyway. I mean using that formula, someone with double the speed growth as someone else always hovers at being 40% faster, which I find to be interesting.

[Deranged]

By any chance, are any of the three weak to a certain affinity?

Leftmost: FIR, MYS
Center: NTR, WND
Rightmost: SPI

[nintendonut888]

Mmm... :S

What I don't like is how dependent this is on paralyzing working consistently. I got extremely lucky this time and was constantly paralyzing all three of them, defeated Eirin, but didn't kill Kaguya fast enough.

Thanks for the affinity weaknesses BTW. That helped a lot.








...Huh. I won. :V I completely wiped the floor with them this time. I didn't even lose anyone. Amazing.

WELP. Onto floor 13...at last. Also holy crap plot.