Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2

[Ghaleon]

Wut.

Heavenly demise is a OHKO for Patchy, Suwako, and Kaguya. What level were you AT?! Of course he'd be easy at that point!

Heavenly demise uses both mnd and def. Patchy tends to have more mnd than most "beefy" people have mnd and def combined, Tenshi is the only one that wins out for me. sounds like you're neglecting her mnd thinking it's high enough to take 0 from magic anyway? I dunno. It really helps to take 0 from all composite attacks too.

[nintendonut888]

Doesn't a composite attack take into account both defense and mind? If so, wouldn't a character that had a million mind and zero defense still take quite a bit of damage?

[LHCling]

It "combines" them.

If you haven't already started pumping MND, I suggest you start now. If you have and still can't take hits, then leave her in the back until "he" starts Form Changing.

[Ghaleon]

Doesn't a composite attack take into account both defense and mind? If so, wouldn't a character that had a million mind and zero defense still take quite a bit of damage?

Yes and no..

composite attack is like
some multiplier X ((attackers attack + attackers Magic) - (defenders defense + defenders mnd).

So let's pretend the attacker has 10k attack and mag, patchy has 20k mnd, and generic other person has 7k mnd, 7k defense.

attacker dude attacks generic dude
1 X (10k + 10k) - (7k + 7k) = 6k damage taken, oooh the pain.

attacker dude attacks patchy
1X (10k + 10k) - (0k + 20k) = 0k damage taken, *queue superman bullet deflect chest flex*.

Of course most attacks have multipliers other than 1 (which wouldn't really matter here), and divide the defense by 2, but you get the gist.

[nintendonut888]

...Oh. Well, guess I know where the next 20000 skill points from grinding are gonna go. ;>_> Patchy's mind is at level 42, and still goes for less than 2000 a pop.

Tomorrow...I feel it, tomorrow I will beat him.

[LHCling]

Tomorrow...I feel it, tomorrow I will beat him.

This is coming off with an anime-like feeling to me. You all know what I'm talking about  :V
By the way, I'd also like to ask what people think are the 4 worst playable characters for me that aren't in the Plus-Disk. Reason? Fun.

Spoiler:

2nd runthrough planning and stuff

. Spoiler Tags for anything 5F and up please.

EDIT: Thread about to end. Hm.

[MysTeariousYukari]

That is how I took 0 from Heavenly demise I thought it was magic btw, but if it's Composite then thats even better since Composites are easier to screw over dmg wise then Non-Composite moves. I think you could already picture an example of this at work, Remi's Spear the Gungnir and Reimu's Yin-Yang orb and Fantasy Seal. If you used these 3 moves, chances are that Spear did more then either of Reimu's moves.

[Ghaleon]

By the way, I'd also like to ask what people think are the 4 worst playable characters for me that aren't in the Plus-Disk

I frequently wonder that myself. I'm not really sure since I haven't really played with them all yet, but here are my candidates and why...If my reasons why don't ring true (some of these I don't have much play experience with, so if you know it to be wrong, then cross it out), then well don't count them as bad.

spoilering it:

Spoiler:

Sakuya: At first I thought she was good for the speed buffing. But really, it's not a great feature. Aya provides better speed buffing ability, and can outdps Sakuya too. Pretty much anybody can out dps Sakuya on a tough fight. Her problem is that she has no good way to dps bosses. Killing doll is great against 0 defense targets, but that's about it. Unless you're over level, it will often do 0, or some dissapointing number. While most bosses don't have much defense, they don't NEED much to make killing doll pretty weak. Soul sculpture is not really a great solution to a high defense boss either. While she might be tankier than Aya, she still isn't quite tank material. I use her in my playthru, and she really doesn't perform anything important other than having some other character there while someone more important regens or something.

I think Sakuya was supposed to be good because of high accuracy, and evade got canned, so Sakuya got the raw end of the deal.

Cirno: Absolutely amazing character against bosses who aren't immune to the slow effect...I haven't really played her past floor 9 (I deleted my save), but it seemed most of the difficult bosses were immune, and I KNOW most of the late game bosses are immune. Seems like 16F boss is the only one where she might be useful for. Whlie paralize might come in handy occasionally, I find Reimu is better at that anyway...and you're pretty much forced to use Reimu anyway.

Iku: Her attack spells are pretty awful considering how squishy she is. Her buff might seem nice since it's your only good source of attack/magic buff. But it doesn't provide a whole lot, it's only single target, and it has that dumb paralize. WHY would you want her for this buff when you could simply use someone like Renko, Sanae, Ran, the oodles of othe rpeople who can buff that stat WITHOUT a nasty paralize. Most of the examples provide better abilities in other areas too IMO. Her defense debuffs also are pretty lame. Most bosses don't have much defense to begin with as is, and most bosses are immune to debuffs, so err...lame.

Youmu: I'm not sure about this one. She's awful early game for sure. Late game you get so much sp you might be able to spam her big nuke. Thing is the delay on it is god awful, and she has absolutely no utility. It depends on how much dps she can provide spamming her big nuke late game, if it offsets the bad delay. I suspect just using Yuugi would be better though, Yuugi has better stats in many catagories too.

Reisen: She kinda has sakuya syndrome, where her attacks lack defense piercing. Not as bad though. Her stats really suck though given how bad her spells already are. Debuffs are nice, but they rarely work. Her magic is not bad after her self buff, but her other stats will still stay bad.

Mokou: This one I'm not too sure about. I don't like her because she has nothing to do but damage pretty much. Looking at her stats and the spell formulas, none seem very damaging for their delay. Her single target nuke isn't bad. 2X2mag is a good formula for a 50% delay move. But her problem is she cannot buff herself to make this excellent, nor is she tanky enough to really do this near the front, like SO MANY other pretty-good but not patchy/flandre quality dpsers can.. bah. I think she's still better than the others though, but she definately deserves mention IMO.

Rinnosuke: He has cooties, nuff' said.
[/spoilers]

[Milkyway64]

In no particular order;

Spoiler:

Sakuya: Ghaleon already nailed it. She had minor use early game for trash sweeping when Reimu/Marisa was out of SP, but past that, she just doesn't seem to do much.

Wriggle: So far as I know, she's useful for one fight and one fight only; Alice. Past that, poison just seems to make no real difference, small enough so that it is made up for by a higher DPSer.

Aya: I just don't see the appeal. Chen did perfectly fine as a speed demon and had some excellent DPS with defense piercing qualities. Aya seems to be an inferior Chen with a speed buff, which is nice on paper but in practice not so much, especially since I'd get to use it on average twice before Aya gets gibbed.

Orin: Excellent for wiping the floor with floor 13 enemies during that floor 16 grindwall. Past that, I found no use for her.

HM Eirin: Eirin is awesome, as far as I know. Decent damage output, multiple element attacks, and overheal with all around average to above average stats. Eirin also happens to be one of my favorite touhou characters. However, Eirin on my personal experience just gets... rolled. Unexplainably. Her defensive stats are good, she overheals herself, but she just gets laid out by EVERYTHING and I never understood why. I personally blame bad luck, but it's put Eirin in a sort of inside joke status as being as frail as Patchy.

Also, I'm still willing to smack Ghaleon for saying

Spoiler:

Rinnosuke

is bad. :V

[MysTeariousYukari]

I agree with Milky on that very last bit, just replace smack with poke-spam :V

Spoiler:

Rinnosuke, I honestly find to him be very good. He has 5 moves and all find a way to be used commonly. Toss in his good stats seemingly best overall stat growths in the game and you will see that his only flaw is that his level speed is one of, if not the worst in the game, but even then this is easily fixed by actually using him.

Although if Ghaleon dislikes Rinnosuke cause Rinnosuke is a guy, then I have nothing to complain about, making my above bit useless :V

[Pesco]

This is a good game.

/thread