Author Topic: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition  (Read 117193 times)

Sagus

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Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #120 on: January 31, 2013, 11:01:20 AM »
Right then. It shall be done. As for Byakuren, this arrow notation is a nightmare to follow. The label is close to whom it applies so Byakuren worships -> shou and shou (is the) disciple (of) -> Byakuren.
Ohh, now I saw it, I had understood the notation but the way those two labels were so close to arrows confused me. Perhaps it'd be better to split that single line in two?
Then again I seem to be the only one that made that mistake, so, eh :P
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 11:03:59 AM by Sagus »
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Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #121 on: January 31, 2013, 06:33:45 PM »
Kasen should be familiar with Suika, right?

Also, I feel like someone should hate Seiga. Byakuren? Might clutter it up too much though, since it seems like everyone hates Seiga (ie: it's a reputation, not a relationship).
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 06:36:43 PM by Clarste »

Raikaria

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Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #122 on: January 31, 2013, 06:37:33 PM »
-=+=Edit=+=-
Also, what's up with Rumia living in a "Lump of Darkness" on LP's chart

Rumia doesn't have a home, she's shrouded in her own peputual darkness. It's almost like a hermit crab's shell in a way.

Kasen should be familiar with Suika, right?

Also, I feel like someone should hate Seiga. Byakuren? Might clutter it up too much though, since it seems like everyone hates Seiga.

Kasen only wanted to avoid Sukia. We don't know why. She could know her, or she could just not like Oni. Since the reason is unknown, we can't put a line.

No-one's shown enmity with Seiga. The only one who *could* be listed as an enemy of Seiga is Eiki, because as the Yama, she's the one in charge of the Kishin who are attempting to take her life, as she is a hermit.


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Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #123 on: January 31, 2013, 06:47:15 PM »
Kasen only wanted to avoid Sukia. We don't know why. She could know her, or she could just not like Oni. Since the reason is unknown, we can't put a line.

It doesn't matter how or why. She recognizes her, knows her name (she doesn't say "an oni" she says "Suika"), and seems to assume that Suika would recognize her in turn. Thus, she knows her, in a way more important than "coincidentally in the same place at some point." No need to say they're friends or enemies or anything.

Quote
No-one's shown enmity with Seiga. The only one who *could* be listed as an enemy of Seiga is Eiki, because as the Yama, she's the one in charge of the Kishin who are attempting to take her life, as she is a hermit.

Byakuren basically threatened to kill her in SoPM. She seems seriously disturbed by her, moreso than Miko even. If we're counting "Sakuya was pretty mean to Alice in the fighting games" then "Byakuren might break her vows just to kill this person" seems notable.

Eiki certainly makes sense too though.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 07:01:49 PM by Clarste »

Prime32

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Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #124 on: January 31, 2013, 07:41:34 PM »
It doesn't matter how or why. She recognizes her, knows her name (she doesn't say "an oni" she says "Suika"), and seems to assume that Suika would recognize her in turn. Thus, she knows her, in a way more important than "coincidentally in the same place at some point." No need to say they're friends or enemies or anything.
More than that, she apparently recognises her "energy signature" in mist form.

Raikaria

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Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #125 on: January 31, 2013, 07:52:40 PM »
More than that, she apparently recognises her "energy signature" in mist form.

How many other characters can turn into mist?


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Imosa

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Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #126 on: January 31, 2013, 09:42:40 PM »
I think something between Kasen and Suika is appropriate. Even if it's just "knows".

As for Seiga. I don't recall anything in particular about Byakuren hating Seiga but it could be. I don't know anything about Eiki and Seiga.

Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #127 on: January 31, 2013, 10:14:33 PM »
As for Seiga. I don't recall anything in particular about Byakuren hating Seiga but it could be. I don't know anything about Eiki and Seiga.

It's in part 5 of the debate section of SoPM (the wicked hermit subsection). Byakuren says she feels "extraordinarily strong evil" from Seiga and later says "At this rate, it wouldn't be surprising if someone destroyed her. If other people don't, I might do it myself...". Basically she finds Seiga's evil magic (necromancy, etc) so offensive that she feels the urge to kill her.

The Eiki connection would be more indirect, since all we know is what Komachi told us about it in WAHH chapter 12. Seiga is on the Bureau of Right and Wrong's naughty list so they send assassins to kill her. Presumably Eiki is aware of this and approved it, since it's in her jurisdiction, but we don't know how she feels about it personally. It'd be a bit more straightforward if there were a "Hell" box around Komachi and Eiki.

Imosa

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Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #128 on: January 31, 2013, 11:24:48 PM »
It's in part 5 of the debate section of SoPM (the wicked hermit subsection). Byakuren says she feels "extraordinarily strong evil" from Seiga and later says "At this rate, it wouldn't be surprising if someone destroyed her. If other people don't, I might do it myself...". Basically she finds Seiga's evil magic (necromancy, etc) so offensive that she feels the urge to kill her.

The Eiki connection would be more indirect, since all we know is what Komachi told us about it in WAHH chapter 12. Seiga is on the Bureau of Right and Wrong's naughty list so they send assassins to kill her. Presumably Eiki is aware of this and approved it, since it's in her jurisdiction, but we don't know how she feels about it personally. It'd be a bit more straightforward if there were a "Hell" box around Komachi and Eiki.
Yeah, I remember that part in SoPM now. Eiki's connection also makes sense but I don't like how implicit it is. I was planing on placing Komachi and Eiki like they are in LP's chart. Is "Hell" a better location for some reason?

Sagus

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Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #129 on: February 01, 2013, 01:11:24 AM »
It says on Shikieiki's profile that she resides in Hell. It's not clearly stated if her workplace is also there or not.
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Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #130 on: February 01, 2013, 01:59:01 AM »
Well, the location seems less meaningful to me than the organization she belongs to. Eiki and Komachi clearly don't work in precisely the same place, yet it only makes sense to group them. I guess the notion of Hell is also a bit confusing because of Former Hell and Blazing Hell and a number of other places in use which aren't connected to Hell as a political entity any more.

Anyway, PMISS says she works for the Bureau of Right and Wrong.

Imosa

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Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #131 on: February 02, 2013, 06:09:49 AM »
Well, the location seems less meaningful to me than the organization she belongs to. Eiki and Komachi clearly don't work in precisely the same place, yet it only makes sense to group them. I guess the notion of Hell is also a bit confusing because of Former Hell and Blazing Hell and a number of other places in use which aren't connected to Hell as a political entity any more.

Anyway, PMISS says she works for the Bureau of Right and Wrong.
This is a very good point. I was intending for the boxes to be (more or less) physical locations but I can certainly see where the organization would be more important. Luckily there are many places where this does not raise m/any issues.
In places like the Myouren Temple where people reside but don't necessarily worship it's generally easy to see what's what because there are a few people who are disciples of Byakuren, and then there are a few who aren't.
I can see how I may have to make some concessions on accuracy for the sake of simplicity. Suika, for example, seems to hang out in a lot of places but right now I have her in Bhavaagra.

Status Update:
Right now I'm trying to figure out how to organize people on the chart, which turns out to be harder then I thought. Not really sure how to go about it.

Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #132 on: February 06, 2013, 09:40:53 AM »
Quote
She also sends:

The Hakurei Miko
Yukari
Marisa, known for explosions, and Alice, who has dolls filled with gunpowder
A vampire
A person who can control time, makes murder references, and Eirin seems to know her...
Half-Ghost Swordswoman
A ghost with the power to invoke death itself [And Yuyuko TRIES, if the dialouge is any indication]

I was busy, so never got to this page, but now I can answer this.
Kaguya sends them as a guts challenge, not as an assassination. It was clearly not meant to be an assassination, Kaguya wasn't killed by them.
We do know Kaguya likes to troll Mokou, as seen in Inaba of the Earth & Moon.

More importantly...
The dialogue between Mokou and the protagonists would imply that assassins sent were not them prior to this. So, there are really only 4 possible people that Kaguya could have sent to Mokou. Eirin, Tewi, Reisen, and the earth rabbits.

Quote
Those are pretty high-calibur assassins, last I checked, and if it's any indication... who said she sends rabbits all the time?

Kaguya lives in Eientei. There are 4 named characters in Eientei, Kaguya, Eirin, Tewi, and Reisen. Then, there are rabbits. That is all the minions she has access to. Kaguya cannot command Tewi to go after Mokou. There is no instance that we see that Kaguya is able to do anything more request Tewi to do things for her. There is also little reason to believe Kaguya sends Eirin after Mokou. I don't believe Kaguya has ever ordered Eirin to do anything.

So, you end up with just 2 possibilities. Reisen and rabbits. We know in Inaba of Earth/Moon she sends Reisen after Mokou and 5 times back to back in a row. Unfortunately, Mokou is far stronger than Reisen and just beats her up without breaking a sweat.
Now, Reisen is the strongest of the rabbits not named Tewi. So, if there are anyone else Kaguya sends, it will be the earth rabbits and they are not a threat.

Imosa

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Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #133 on: February 09, 2013, 06:58:17 AM »
Made some more progress. The chart was taking on a semblance of order, then I realized I forgot... a lot of stuff. There's so much information to work with that it's hard to keep it all straight. Still It's slowly moving into place and I'd like to keep it similar to how it is now. I've now incorperated LP's color species' and added Hermit as a new species.
I've written a few questions about stuff, most notably a few relations from Aya's chart. It's not that I don't believe that they are true they just strike me as odd and I'd like to know where they come from.
http://i.imgur.com/vN6FVSd.jpg

Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #134 on: February 09, 2013, 12:51:19 PM »
Cool chart

However, I have a few things to point out:
- you have Suika as human, but that's probably just a slip-up
- Kosuzu and Rinnosuke have some weird golden colour (which I assume is supposed to be just yellow). Kosuzu is fully human, Rinnosuke is half-human/half-youkai.
- celestials aren't divine to my understanding, they're some sort of ascended hermit, so Tenshi's background should be brown
- Tojiko is a vengeful spirit, so her bg should be brown and pink
- Unzan is also a spirit I believe?
- I'm not sure inhowfar poltergeists qualify as spirits, but this is more of a question than a suggestion
- Hina appears to be some intermediary thing between god and youkai
- Nue doesn't strike me as an animal in her base form, at least not more than Nitori; this is kinda debatable, though
- alien is a pretty awesome category, but I'd probably rename it to Lunarian
- you're probably working on Kasen's relationships right now, but a line between Yukari and Suika is also missing (friends)
- in general, while the chart is awesome and overall organised well, there's still some messy lines here and there going all over the place (especially in the Reimu area and the Myouren temple). a reorganistation is maybe a bit much to ask for, but some shifting around would probably help (the Prismrivers are really in the way)
- some lines, like the one between Utsuho and Kanako, are really easy to misread. maybe get rid of the arrow tip and slide the "benefactor" field towards Kanako? same for Patch/Koa et alii
- lastly, there are quite a few typos. alone in the Eientei box, I see "elixir", "attendant", "feud" and "creator" misspelt, for example (misread the latter as "cheater", which wouldn't be far from the truth, lol)

I'm sorry for all the criticism, I don't mean to bash your chart (for the most part, it's really good) but that's what you get for slandering Patchouli. I really like some of the descriptions (the moon, man). the pink is really ugly though
Lunatic 1ccs: MoF (ReimuB)

Imosa

  • Any sufficiently advanced technology
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Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #135 on: February 09, 2013, 04:26:21 PM »
I'm sorry for all the criticism, I don't mean to bash your chart (for the most part, it's really good) but that's what you get for slandering Patchouli. I really like some of the descriptions (the moon, man). the pink is really ugly though
No this is perfect. Like I said, it's really hard keeping all this stuff straight while working on it. I need feed back like this to remind me of stuff that I forget/don't think about.

- Kosuzu and Rinnosuke have some weird golden colour (which I assume is supposed to be just yellow). Kosuzu is fully human, Rinnosuke is half-human/half-youkai.
   Rinnosuke has the orange (got the color wrong) to represent his Youkai half. I assumed Kosuzu was a youkai but I see I'm wrong.
- celestials aren't divine to my understanding, they're some sort of ascended hermit, so Tenshi's background should be brown
   Good point, this should be investigated
- Unzan is also a spirit I believe?
   I think you might be right. Something about him being a monk who couldn't look past his own feet
- Hina appears to be some intermediary thing between god and youkai
   SoPM has no trouble calling her a god repeatedly
- Nue doesn't strike me as an animal in her base form, at least not more than Nitori; this is kinda debatable, though
   For this part I was just following LP's chart because the immediate point is expanding his chart but I don't think they are canon. The humanoid/fauna split comes out of nowhere, and I don't see where he's getting "fiends" from. I may just take those out unless I get a little more info about them.
- alien is a pretty awesome category, but I'd probably rename it to Lunarian
   I know what you mean but what about Reisen and the moon rabbits.
- you're probably working on Kasen's relationships right now, but a line between Yukari and Suika is also missing (friends)
   It's there. Yukari, Suika, and Reimu share a "friend" node because the feelings are mutual
- in general, while the chart is awesome and overall organised well, there's still some messy lines here and there going all over the place (especially in the Reimu area and the Myouren temple). a reorganistation is maybe a bit much to ask for, but some shifting around would probably help (the Prismrivers are really in the way)
   It wasn't that messy until I realized I forgot stuff and just drew it in. Right now my method for organizing the chart is just nudging things around until they look good
- some lines, like the one between Utsuho and Kanako, are really easy to misread. maybe get rid of the arrow tip and slide the "benefactor" field towards Kanako? same for Patch/Koa et alii
   I really need to figure out what to do about the arrow notation, in those cases.
- lastly, there are quite a few typos. alone in the Eientei box, I see "elixir", "attendant", "feud" and "creator" misspelt, for example (misread the latter as "cheater", which wouldn't be far from the truth, lol)
    I'm not sure if Visio has spell check. Thanks a lot for pointing this out.

Just noticed Parsee. Is she a vengeful spirit?


-=+=Edit=+=-
I did a little more work on the chart. Not in organization, I just changed some species and put more questions into the chart for your consideration. Most importantly though, I realized that Imgur won't work for my purposes because of the file size limit, so from now on I'll be uploading onto a MediaFire account. I realize that this is a bit of a pain but you can download the full image and actually read the text. Hopefully the final product can be hosted somewhere so this doesn't have to be done.
Image

Also, if this:
- I'm not sure inhowfar poltergeists qualify as spirits, but this is more of a question than a suggestion
refers to the prismriver sisters, yes I think they are spirits. Poltergeist is German for noisy spirit. However, I'm hesitant on a lot of these species assignments and if a proper objection were raised I/we'd figure out something else to do.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 08:16:55 PM by Imosa »

Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #136 on: February 09, 2013, 09:59:00 PM »
   SoPM has no trouble calling her a god repeatedly

Actually, SoPM says that she's not a god because she doesn't need faith to live. It does however repeatedly call her a "curse god". You should think of that as a compound word though. A cursegod isn't necessarily a god in the same way that a seahorse isn't a horse.  The word "kami" also has a more general meaning of "spirit" and gets used in words like shikigami and tsukumogami. I think it's pretty clear that Ran and Kogasa aren't gods.

Also, this is pretty nitpicky, but it never says anywhere that Futo and Tojiko live in Miko's pocket dimension. Akyuu actually claims that Futo lives in the Human Village. They don't really discuss it in detail though, so it may just be something Akyuu doesn't know.

Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #137 on: February 09, 2013, 11:02:37 PM »
Also, if this: refers to the prismriver sisters, yes I think they are spirits. Poltergeist is German for noisy spirit. However, I'm hesitant on a lot of these species assignments and if a proper objection were raised I/we'd figure out something else to do.
oh, I'm aware what "poltergeist" means seeing as German is my mother tongue, lol (Geist actually means "ghost" and not "spirit", but I'm not quite sure what the exact difference is). Poltergeists don't seem very "spiritual" though, that's why I brought it up, but I guess in this case there's no distinction between spirits and ghosts.
Lunatic 1ccs: MoF (ReimuB)

Raikaria

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Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #138 on: February 10, 2013, 02:19:46 AM »
Some minor things I spotted:

Hourai is the stronger doll. Hourai is used in the Lunatic Spellcard in PCB, Shanghai on lower difficulties.

Seiga -> Yoshika is Master/Servant, possibly even dependance for life.

Sanae -> Suwako: ancestor is spelt wrong.

You should probobly list the Dragon as well with Iku, seeing as Iku is the Dragon's Envoy.

Why is Cirno/Dai listed as 'Enemies?' when Cirno/TMF is '?'. Surely the relation between Cirno and those three is worse.

Also if Dai/Cirno is enemy due to GFW, so's Cirno/Lilly.

Kasen is freindly with Reimu, and doesn't want anything to do with Sukia.

Sukia's background is Human, while Yuugi is Feind.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 02:23:29 AM by Raikaria »


http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/tribute/
I don't even remember who put the above in my sig. [Wasn't me] Nor do I understand why I keep it here anymore.
Those two facts sum me up pretty well.

Imosa

  • Any sufficiently advanced technology
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Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #139 on: February 10, 2013, 02:47:34 AM »
Actually, SoPM says that she's not a god because she doesn't need faith to live. It does however repeatedly call her a "curse god". You should think of that as a compound word though. A cursegod isn't necessarily a god in the same way that a seahorse isn't a horse.  The word "kami" also has a more general meaning of "spirit" and gets used in words like shikigami and tsukumogami. I think it's pretty clear that Ran and Kogasa aren't gods.
It says she doesn't seek faith, not that she doesn't need it. I don't believe Suwako or Shizuha seek faith either. I asked some people on the IRC about it and they thought she was a god. Saying that she derives her power from people's faith in the dolls that are sent down the river. I'm not wholly convinced though.
The wiki's translation pretty much has a straight forward contradiction on the subject:
Quote
Although jinxes are a kind of god, they do not seek faith. They are not like normal gods, but a kind of youkai.
I'm not sure if youkai and god are mutually exclusive.

Also, this is pretty nitpicky, but it never says anywhere that Futo and Tojiko live in Miko's pocket dimension. Akyuu actually claims that Futo lives in the Human Village. They don't really discuss it in detail though, so it may just be something Akyuu doesn't know.
lol, that's not nitpicky at all. I'm trying to be accurate here, so if something is wrong then it should be addressed.
I don't think Akyuu says that Futo lives in the human village though, just that she is active in the human village. Do you remember where it says that Miko lives in her own pocket dimension? I think it was at some point during the meeting.
This is actually fairly important because it might mean I have to choose between grouping people by association vs. physical location.

Some minor things I spotted:

Hourai is the stronger doll. Hourai is used in the Lunatic Spellcard in PCB, Shanghai on lower difficulties. So it seems. I dunno if I should even keep the dolls as separate.

Seiga -> Yoshika is Master/Servant, possibly even dependance for life. Sounds good

Sanae -> Suwako: ancestor is spelt wrong. lol, thanks

You should probobly list the Dragon as well with Iku, seeing as Iku is the Dragon's Envoy. This is news. I had no idea.

Why is Cirno/Dai listed as 'Enemies?' when Cirno/TMF is '?'. Surely the relation between Cirno and those three is worse. The question marks are there because I have no idea about those relationships. Aya's chart calls Cirno and Dai Enemies and people said it was like that because of something in GFW, which I never played. I went along with it because I assume people are being careful to dispel the friendship that was built up by the fandom.

Also if Dai/Cirno is enemy due to GFW, so's Cirno/Lilly. Never played GFW, I leave that call to other people.

Kasen is freindly with Reimu, and doesn't want anything to do with Sukia. Yup, still need to make those connection. I'm hoping Kasen will be relatively easy to fit in because she's just one character.

Sukia's background is Human, while Yuugi is Feind. This was addressed in the latest version

Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #140 on: February 10, 2013, 04:06:54 AM »
I don't think gods and youkai are mutually exclusive, but I do think that quote from SoPM is pretty badly translated. The Japanese is: 疫病神は、神という名前が付いているが、信仰を求めたりしない。普通の神様ではなく、妖怪の一部である。 Barring some idiomatic usage of the phrase that I'm not familiar with, the first sentence does not say they are "a kind of god," but that they are "named as gods." As in, people call them gods. The emphasis is put on the fact that it's just a name. (Googling the phrase gets me a bunch of Japanese people asking why Americans give hurricanes human names)

Also, the second sentence does not say they are "not like normal gods," but that they are "not normal gods." The way I read it, it's just saying they're not gods. They're just called gods. Akyuu seems to be explaining this as if it's trivia. To me it sounds like a "did you know that dolphins aren't fish, but actually mammals?" kind of thing. On the other hand, I suppose you could also read it as saying that they're abnormal gods.

Then again, you should take my translation with a grain of salt. Honestly, I translated it in the first place, but the new version has come about through the editing process, and I really don't want to get into an edit war.

Prime32

  • Munch-Munch Demon
Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #141 on: February 10, 2013, 08:19:31 PM »
You should probobly list the Dragon as well with Iku, seeing as Iku is the Dragon's Envoy.
Nope, wrong dragon. You're thinking of the one in the Dragon Palace, assuming it exists and Iku's title isn't a pun on oarfish.

Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #142 on: February 13, 2013, 11:02:09 AM »
Quote
As in, people call them gods. The emphasis is put on the fact that it's just a name.

This is interesting, is there a difference though? As far as I can tell, you become a god, because people of faith. So, I don't quite see the difference between naming something a god and that something being an actual god. Since the former would also become a god.
Then again, if there is emphasis on the difference that is even more confusing.

Quote
Nope, wrong dragon. You're thinking of the one in the Dragon Palace, assuming it exists and Iku's title isn't a pun on oarfish.

Why would it be the wrong dragon? I don't believe there are any indications that say either way.

@chart: If Reimu is friends with Yukari and Suika, then, there should be friend line between her and Remilia. She goes to the Scarlet Devil Mansion and Remilia visits her.
There should be a line between Akyuu and Eiki. I think she is under Eiki's employment during periods between reincarnation.
I think Youmu has 3 teachers. Youki, Yuyuko and Yukari.
I think the Prismriver sisters live somewhat close to the Scarlet Devil Mansion and Misty Lake.
I think Sunnymilk is afraid of Lily White for reasons unknown.

Imosa

  • Any sufficiently advanced technology
  • is indistinguishable from magic
Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #143 on: February 13, 2013, 07:51:29 PM »
This is interesting, is there a difference though? As far as I can tell, you become a god, because people of faith. So, I don't quite see the difference between naming something a god and that something being an actual god. Since the former would also become a god.
Then again, if there is emphasis on the difference that is even more confusing.
As I understand it, gods gain a real, measurable, amount of power from faith, unlike you. You, as a person, can exist even if nobody knows you exist. A god can use faith to manifest themselves and then effect the world.
To clarify, The trouble with Hina is that she doesn't appear to display this property of gaining power from faith, partially because nobody worships Hina. Certainly people know she exists and perhaps there is intrinsic faith derived from that but this is a far cry from someone like Kanako who has actual worshipers. However, to me, it does seem like people have faith in that putting their misfortune into a doll and letting it flow down a river will take the misfortune away, and it might be possible the Hina manifests from this faith.
What I've been thinking about is another character like Hina who we all agree is not a god as basis for her not being a god but this hasn't been fruitful.

@chart: If Reimu is friends with Yukari and Suika, then, there should be friend line between her and Remilia. She goes to the Scarlet Devil Mansion and Remilia visits her. I think, I recall this.

I'd like sources for these.
There should be a line between Akyuu and Eiki. I think she is under Eiki's employment during periods between reincarnation.
I think Youmu has 3 teachers. Youki, Yuyuko and Yukari.
I think the Prismriver sisters live somewhat close to the Scarlet Devil Mansion and Misty Lake.
I think Sunnymilk is afraid of Lily White for reasons unknown.

Raikaria

  • Do Tank Girls Dream...
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  • Of Floating Eyeballs?
Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #144 on: February 13, 2013, 10:49:08 PM »
Except Hina is a curse goddess, and as one of the Aya journal things states, there is a festival where people send dolls that ward misfortune down a river in Gensokyo, which Hina is heavily involved in. They're even called 'Hina Dolls'

That would probobly classify as faith, a religious festival/tradition.

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Kakashi_Spirit_News_2
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 10:51:24 PM by Raikaria »


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Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #145 on: February 13, 2013, 11:57:00 PM »
Sending Hina dolls down the river is a real festival in Japan. Hina's entire character is based on that. However, they doesn't necessarily mean they worship them. Not every supernatural thing that does a favor for you is a god. Otherwise all benevolent youkai like Keine or Tewi or Zashiki Warashi would also be gods.

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Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #146 on: February 14, 2013, 04:39:55 AM »
Sending Hina dolls down the river is a real festival in Japan. Hina's entire character is based on that. However, they doesn't necessarily mean they worship them. Not every supernatural thing that does a favor for you is a god. Otherwise all benevolent youkai like Keine or Tewi or Zashiki Warashi would also be gods.
I believe there is a distinct difference between gods, and Keine, Tewi, and Zashiki Warashi. The people that you mentioned don't seem to survive on faith and don't get more powerful as faith in them increases. A god like Kanako does.
The reason I don't question if the people you mentioned are gods is because I can see how there wouldn't be a desire for them to be around. That's a little confusing so here is an example.
If you wanted an education, you might go to a classroom, sit down, and believe you were learning from a teacher. If one day, during this ritual an actual physical Keine walked into the room and without a second thought started teaching you, then you have witnessed the manifestation of a god, created by you're belief that it was already there. However, that isn't what you do when you want an education, which is why I don't think Keine is a god who was created by this method.
On the other hand if you wanted your misfortune to be taken away, how would you go about doing that? I'm not really sure but apparently someone believed that sending dolls down a river would work. If Hina was created out of belief in this ritual then she would qualify as a god to me. I'm also sure that if people stopped doing the ritual, then Hina would disappear.
My problem is that I don't know if Hina was actually created in this way or if she would disappear if people stopped doing the ritual, in the same way that I can't actually be sure people didn't sit in a classroom to create Keine.

Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #147 on: February 14, 2013, 04:09:11 PM »
I don't think Hina was created by belief. I mean, the people doing the ritual aren't hoping for a god to take their misfortune away, they already put their misfortune directly into the doll itself. Even if they're "worshiping" the dolls, they do so to a different doll every year and a different doll for each family. Each one would be competing with all the others, and there are seriously a lot of these dolls being thrown away (apparently they have a negative impact on fishermen because there are so many drifting out to sea). There's no faith being put into a central god governing all the dolls downstream, which is what Hina would be.

Rather, she's more like a youkai feeding off all the misfortune that people were throwing away anyway. They put their misfortune in the dolls, and she eats it from the dolls. The humans don't need her to exist, and she doesn't do a single thing for them. They already got rid of their misfortune, and they don't care whether it stays in the dolls or gets eaten by a youkai. Honestly, having Hina eat it is bad for them because she has the ability to bring it back to them, unlike a doll, which drifts away forever. Apparently she tries not to, but just by walking around with all the collected misfortune, much more than what you would find it any individual doll, she's making life more dangerous for them. As for her origins, it seems fairly like to me that she's a tsukumogami born from a doll, but that's never made clear.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 04:11:24 PM by Clarste »

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Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #148 on: February 14, 2013, 10:34:38 PM »
I don't think Hina was created by belief. I mean, the people doing the ritual aren't hoping for a god to take their misfortune away, they already put their misfortune directly into the doll itself. Even if they're "worshiping" the dolls, they do so to a different doll every year and a different doll for each family. Each one would be competing with all the others, and there are seriously a lot of these dolls being thrown away (apparently they have a negative impact on fishermen because there are so many drifting out to sea). There's no faith being put into a central god governing all the dolls downstream, which is what Hina would be.

Rather, she's more like a youkai feeding off all the misfortune that people were throwing away anyway. They put their misfortune in the dolls, and she eats it from the dolls. The humans don't need her to exist, and she doesn't do a single thing for them. They already got rid of their misfortune, and they don't care whether it stays in the dolls or gets eaten by a youkai. Honestly, having Hina eat it is bad for them because she has the ability to bring it back to them, unlike a doll, which drifts away forever. Apparently she tries not to, but just by walking around with all the collected misfortune, much more than what you would find it any individual doll, she's making life more dangerous for them. As for her origins, it seems fairly like to me that she's a tsukumogami born from a doll, but that's never made clear.
How do humans put misfortune into a doll? I'm sure explanations for this could be created, like perhaps someone taught them how to make special dolls. I would probably prefer to think that Hina wondered into Gensokyo and made the tradition catch on (unless some canon says otherwise). The problem with going there is that we both end up having a missing origin.
Hina's roll as a god would indeed be strange, as you help to point out. I'm thinking that the tradition of sending dolls down a river is less important then the desire to get rid of misfortune and it's from this desire that Hina was created. I also don't think the tradition was started with the intent of finding a god.
It's kind of off topic but I do wonder about where the dolls would go if Hina didn't pick them up. You say that Hina is bad because she can radiate misfortune back to the humans and the dolls just take the misfortune away forever but I doubt the dolls just cease to exist.

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Re: Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition
« Reply #149 on: February 14, 2013, 10:40:57 PM »
From what I understand, it all funnels right back to Faith and Belief. The people believe strongly that their misfortune will be transferred into the dolls. That belief was likely what brought Hina into existence.
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